Welcome to one of the most active flamenco sites on the Internet. Guests can read most posts but if you want to participate click here to register.
This site is dedicated to the memory of Paco de Lucía, Ron Mitchell, Guy Williams, Linda Elvira, Philip John Lee, Craig Eros, Ben Woods, David Serva and Tom Blackshear who went ahead of us.
We receive 12,200 visitors a month from 200 countries and 1.7 million page impressions a year. To advertise on this site please contact us.
|
|
|
RE: Juan Martin?
|
You are logged in as Guest
|
|
Users viewing this topic: none
|
|
Login  | |
|
   
Ricardo
Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
|
 RE: Juan Martin? (in reply to Ron.M)
|
|
|
Who is "juan martin" again? You don't mean ol John Martin do you? 
Seriously, I have met MANY folks in music, flamenco and the like, that pretend to be something from somewhere they are not. I mean even, and ESPECIALLY good artists, that you can tell by looking at their face it is not true. A little behind the back investigation reveals the truth. Confronting the person about it is not so wise IMO. Just let it go, no big deal. For example, I know I guy who claimed French Gipsy. Knowing he was not, a friend asked about it. The guy got real defensive like "yeah ok my parents no, but I was born and raised in the gipsy barrio, my wife is, my kids are, all my extended family, my way of life, my music, etc, all more Gipsy than many gipsies I know, and more than YOU will ever be!" etc etc. So like dont' ever ask again or you might get reamed kind of thing. And someone like that, the gipsies themselves will stand up for so watch out.
But sure there are those that "act the part" even in flamenco I met many that pretend they are gipsy or part gipsy or raised gypsy or whatever, when in fact it is not true. But it is not really a big deal. As some said earlier, what matters is the end result, the playing itself or singing or dance whatever, tells people who understand and care what you are about. The other info about your orgin, is for those that don't really care about what you are doing or don't understand anything about it. In the end, people will get respect or not based on what they DO, not where they are from.
Ricardo
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Dec. 19 2007 3:46:57
 |
|
Florian
Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia
|
|
RE: Juan Martin? (in reply to mark indigo)
|
|
|
quote:
Seriously, if JM is Spanish and born in Malaga I'll shut up and go away (and stop trying to argue with Wikipedia over the JM entry, which says he is de Malaga based on a newspaper article based on...?). But if he's really from Brighton UK, then if his adoring audiences knew, and said "ok, but we like him anyway for his music" that would maybe open the door to (other) non Spanish flamencos being recognised and accepted.
Mark I belive that if it did come that JM was born in Brigton, his majority of audiences who applaud not the music but the Bio would never forgive him.
Lets face it, majority of concert goers outside Spain, arent flamenco aficionados, but midlle class people who dont know anything about flamenco.
The fact the he came from Spain and his CV was the only safe thing "they" understond
This Last weekend at our show, wich was called "Pena Flamenca" i heard of a incident of a guy and his wife who had allready
purchased tickets, who left before the show even started because he said " This is fake advertising, I know flamenco, I was expecting Paco Pena"
I mean the ticket was only 20 bucs and in a quite small venue , one would thing that might be a dead give away atlist.
He was never gonna get his money back, didnt even ask for it but its one of the most arrogant, idiotic thing i have ever heard from someone who obviously didnt know anything about flamenco.
The fact that he was allready there, and dressed, and had a ticket, and instead of just going in to watch the show, i mean who knows we might have entertained him.. he had to let the guy at the door know that " He will not be fouled !! he knows ! and had to do the "walk off" before the guy could even respond"" 
Outside Spain, unfortunately , except for the flamenco students this is the majority of concert goers.
A mans CV and where he is from, is the only "safe" thing this people understand and grasp.
_____________________________
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Dec. 19 2007 9:20:51
|
|
mrMagenta
Posts: 942
Joined: Oct. 25 2006
From: Sweden
|
|
RE: Juan Martin? (in reply to Ron.M)
|
|
|
hehe, funny thread.
the sound waves he emits will definetly be the same regardless our mental image of him, but i think the way we experience them will be colored by our preconceptions of the guy, and the general opinion, even if we wouldn't want it.
but on another point
it's not necessary to look so cynically on people who adapt their behaviour/appearence to a new culture. i think some people aren't doing it to put on airs, but rather take to the stuff, accents and all, on a personal, aesthetic, perhaps intuitive level.. edwin hubble, the famous american astronomer acted like a british gentleman, tweed jacket, pipe, silly exclamations and all, i think the brittish aristocrat manner resonated with his personality. these things look ridiculously phoney, but i think the case with hubble and also john martin might be that they in fact are very true to themselves, and what we consider phoney manners or lack of integrity are actually earnest hybrids/adaptations that are a bit aesthetically wonky to us conservative purists.
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Dec. 19 2007 11:26:16
|
|
Ricardo
Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
|
|
RE: Juan Martin? (in reply to Guest)
|
|
|
quote:
All things being equal...
I prefer a
Gypsy or Andalusian maestro to a non-gypsy or non-Andalusian maestro.
Well, at least you admit your prejudices openly, and have them clearly defined. We all have them for sure, whether we admit them or not.
I agree about the ethnic culture thing, like in a martial arts movie, you have these big anglo guys fighting or whatever then, uh oh, here comes a little grey haired Chinese guy that is going to jump and spin real fast and kick everyone's ass.
But Romerito, what if a gitano you admire, and all along you say "well of course he is good, he is andaluz-gitano", and then, after years of acceptance of this "fact", you learn that the guy is actually Payo from Barcelona or something? Will it change your view of his playing suddenly after ALL that time?
Ricardo
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Dec. 19 2007 19:41:46
|
|
Ron.M
Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland
|
|
RE: Juan Martin? (in reply to Ricardo)
|
|
|
Some thoughts here on this interesting subject.
It's funny to think that but for a quirk of fate PdL was born and brought up in Algeciras and not Portugal.
After all his mother (and her family) were Portugues, so maybe if the work situation had been better there when his folks got married....who knows?
Also Paco and his brother Ramon don't even look Spanish, let alone Gitano or Southern Mediterranean with their light skin and light brown hair.
Algeciras could hardly have been the hub of Flamenco culture, but in fact a backwater, the real action taking place in the Sevilla/Jerez area.
But he would still have been the same person.
Jazz and Rock music have crossed borders without too much of a problem, although I remember in the 50's British rock singers were really just mini Elvis clones and regarded as watered-down versions of the real thing, the real music being dominated by the Americans.
After the Beatles I think rock music stopped being perceived as just "American" music and changed to being "Young People's" music, which eventually opened up the acceptability of bands from other countries into rock culture.
Jazz had already lost it's tight connection with the United States after Parker and Coltrane presented it more as "Cerebral" music rather than being tied into any Black/Blues or country based culture.
The difficulty with Flamenco however, is that it is still quite tightly associated with Spanish/Andalucian/Gitano culture even though a lot of the roots and conditions of that culture have changed dramatically.
I think this "Non-Spanish = Not genuine stuff" or "Secondhand Flamenco" attitude amongst the general public DOES annoy a lot of non-Spanish guitarists who would like to be serious musicians in this field.
Hence the made-up bios and name changes or just giving up and forming "Flamenco Infuenced" fusion bands where they can relax and admit to being themselves instead of having all this baggage hanging over them.
Which of course is not fair... but the World is not a fair place as we know.
I think this attitude will change due to efforts of folk like Gerardo Nuñez and the modern Flamenco movement, but it's not going to happen next week or next month.
My only advice to any player is to keep going on, keep learning, keep getting better, keep in mind the first reason you started playing this music, put away ideas of fame or even respect and just let things take their course.
And you'll be a happy person!
cheers,
Ron
_____________________________
A good guitar might be a good guitar
But it takes a woman to break your heart
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Dec. 19 2007 21:34:48
|
|
 New Messages |
 No New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/ New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/o New Messages |
 Locked w/ New Messages |
 Locked w/o New Messages |
|
Post New Thread
Reply to Message
Post New Poll
Submit Vote
Delete My Own Post
Delete My Own Thread
Rate Posts
|
|
|
Forum Software powered by ASP Playground Advanced Edition 2.0.5
Copyright © 2000 - 2003 ASPPlayground.NET |
0.09375 secs.
|
Printable Version
