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RE: What about a Sevilliana?   You are logged in as Guest
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Ricardo

Posts: 14818
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: What about a Sevilliana? (in reply to zata) 
quote:

No need to refer to pre 1900, the fandango era begins and ends squarely within modern times, while many forms of the fandango family go much further back and are even mentioned in written accounts. And then there's Padre Soler's "fandango" from the 1700's.


That makes no sense, unless you meant "fandangos naturales", which is fine. To not go on and on about it, I will just stick with this statement and leave it at that:
quote:

The first fandangos are believed to have been abandolao forms derived from Moorish music,

Only point I was making all along, first there was compas, then there was free style. The free style fandangos evolved from the song form that had a beat at first.

quote:

If you read the original Spanish letter, no one called Manuel Martín an "idiot".

yeah I know I was just poking some fun. The real words were "racist/faciast" I believe. Since you seem to be defending him I will REALLY leave this one alone, or this could get ugly quite quick!

quote:

we don't have many threads about cante and I wish we did.


Great, as long as we talk about what we LIKE and not who we think "does not know how to sing flamenco...".

Any singer knows that Estrella can SING or whoever else gets bad critic. Whether or not you like it is something else. Critics of singing should just sing then, and show everyone how it is done. Same for guitar and dance.

That being said, some aficionados sing BETTER than some pros at certain styles. I think it is good that a singer focus on something rather than sing everything just to show knowleadge. But that is just my opinion as a fan.

quote:

This is a guitar forum. If there are half a dozen people here who understand cante sufficiently to understand what Martin Martin is saying, it would surprise me.

Not goin there...
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 27 2007 3:53:50
 
Ailsa

Posts: 2277
Joined: Apr. 17 2007
From: South East England

RE: What about a Sevilliana? (in reply to Ricardo) 
quote:

some aficionados sing BETTER than some pros at certain styles. I think it is good that a singer focus on something rather than sing everything just to show knowleadge. But that is just my opinion as a fan.


Well I guess that's just the same for everyone - you're always going to find some styles come more naturally and some need more work - that's certainly the case for dance styles. No reason why it shouldn't be the same for pros.

Yeah about my reported comment about Estrella - I wasn't meaning to be critical, just repeating what someone had said to me. Flamenco or not I like her. We went to see her show in London last Feb and it was wonderful. But that was a birthday present for my husband - he REALLY likes her.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 27 2007 3:57:49
 
Kate

Posts: 1827
Joined: Jul. 8 2003
From: Living in Granada, Andalucía

RE: What about a Sevilliana? (in reply to Guest) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sean

Try Los Panchos


I had to google them, and found loads more bolero but mostly Latin American gruops. Maybe I should have been more specific and asked if any flamenco guitarists had recorded a bolero.

Kate

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 27 2007 4:08:59
 
Matic

 

Posts: 603
Joined: Jul. 3 2006
From: Slovenija

RE: What about a Sevilliana? (in reply to Kate) 
quote:

Maybe I should have been more specific and asked if any flamenco guitarists had recorded a bolero.


Vicente Amigo has recorded 2:
Bolero de Vicente
Bolero a Marcos

Tomatito:
Aire de tango

Also, Carlos Montoya has a track 'Bolero Malorquin' that could be a bolero but it sounds way different than those of Vicente and Tomate. I don't know really... never payed attention to boleros. There may be different types of it.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 27 2007 4:57:05
 
Kate

Posts: 1827
Joined: Jul. 8 2003
From: Living in Granada, Andalucía

RE: What about a Sevilliana? (in reply to Matic) 
Thanks Matic, we've not got any Vicente recordings, but think we have the Tomatito one.

Cheers
Kate

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 27 2007 6:59:11
 
zata

Posts: 659
Joined: Jul. 17 2003
 

RE: What about a Sevilliana? (in reply to Guest) 
quote:

Any one know of any recorded Boleros.


Watch out for the word "bolero", it has several meanings. In Spanish dance, it's 'escuela bolera', a kind of semiclassical dance that was popular throughout Europe at a certain time, and made its way into nearly Spanish dance companies in the first two thirds of the twentieth century.

But in flamenco you also hear bolero songs, especially of Carlos Gardel or Antonio Machín, set to hard-driving bulerías, most often by Bambino, Fernanda or Bernarda de Utrera. If anyone hasn't heard how Bernarda turns the syrupy song "Ten Cuidao" into gut-wrenching flamenco, try find it and hear it soon.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 27 2007 8:06:18
 
zata

Posts: 659
Joined: Jul. 17 2003
 

RE: What about a Sevilliana? (in reply to Ricardo)1 votes
quote:

Since you seem to be defending him I will REALLY leave this one alone, or this could get ugly quite quick!


I don't defend Manuel Martín. As a critic, not to mention a human being brought up in the US, I defend his right to free speech, and to not be brow-beaten and publicly humiliated by artists who feel they have not been praised highly enough. I've received plenty of threats and insults as a result of mildly negative reviews of artists who thought they were slightly better than perfect. People who are paid to give their opinion, have the obligation to do so.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 27 2007 8:12:25
 
andresito

Posts: 377
Joined: Feb. 20 2007
From: New Holland

RE: What about a Sevilliana? (in reply to zata) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: zata
People who are paid to give their opinion, have the obligation to do so.


Original: Ricardo
'Critics of singing should just sing then, and show everyone how it is done. Same for guitar and dance. '

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 28 2007 13:00:24
 
Kate

Posts: 1827
Joined: Jul. 8 2003
From: Living in Granada, Andalucía

RE: What about a Sevilliana? (in reply to andresito) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: andresito
'Critics of singing should just sing then, and show everyone how it is done. Same for guitar and dance. '


Ah yes and if you are going to be an orchestra/classical music critic you have to play every single instrument in the world

Actually Zata can sing, dance as well as play guitar so I guess she qualifies.

Kate

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 29 2007 2:46:29
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14818
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: What about a Sevilliana? (in reply to Kate) 
quote:

Ah yes and if you are going to be an orchestra/classical music critic you have to play every single instrument in the world


I would not be a good critic for orchestral music. I can say I like it or not. A paid critic should IMO have experience conducting, and playing some of the instruments that are used in orchestra. For example, violin or viola or cello, or a wind instrument like flute or clarinete or oboe, or Percussion. I don't mean a drummer for a rock band, but someone with experience playing auxiliary percussion for concert bands or symphonies. Someone who only plays piano, guitar, or just sings, or just LISTENS to music, would not make a good critic of orchestral music IMO.

And I don't mean they took some classes in college, but actually have experience. OK that is just my opinion. Likewise a guitarist with experience accomp. pro flamenco singers would make a better critic of singing than say a flamencologist that writes books, but can barely do palmas. Hope you know what I mean.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 29 2007 3:27:58
 
Kate

Posts: 1827
Joined: Jul. 8 2003
From: Living in Granada, Andalucía

RE: What about a Sevilliana? (in reply to Ricardo) 
Hi Ricardo,

A critic is essentially a journalist, and one does not expect a war correspondant to also be a soldier. Theatre critics are very rarely actors, and would you trust an actor to review a film. If flamencos were left to review themselves everything they would all be falling over themselves with praise and would keep the bitching for backstage.

I do see what you are saying but just because some-one plays guitar does not mean that they can write ( I know quite a few flamencos that cant).

I did not read the original review that sparked the protest letter so cant comment on what Morente said or why he said it, but many feel it was a bit undignified. Its a shame that Martín's regular flamenco review for El Mundo is not published online so we can all see his apparantly very tough style of reviewing. We also dont know that he cant sing, dance or play guitar. I bet he does a bit.

As Sean and Estela have said Martín is very respected, he has been called 'el mejor crítico de flamenco de España', “el crítico más experto de este tiempo” and Felix Grande said of his writing "un nuevo estilo ha nacido en el periodismo".

He recieved numerous awards for his contribution to flamenco
la Mención Especial del Premio de Periodismo Ricardo Molina, de Córdoba (1986),
el I Premio Nacional de Periodismo ‘Antonio Mairena’ (1987),
Premio Nacional de Periodismo ‘Ciudad de La Unión’ (1987), Premio a la Mayor Cobertura de Espectáculos Flamencos (1999),
Premio Nacional de Flamencología en su modalidad de ‘Crítica Periodística’ (1999),
único concedido hasta el momento en la historia del flamenco,
Premio Nacional de Ensayo Flamenco Niño Medina (2001)
Premio de Investigación y Crítica de la Bienal Málaga en Flamenco 2006.

With all that I'd give him the benefit of the doubt that he knows what he is talking about.

Kate

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 29 2007 4:16:28
 
andresito

Posts: 377
Joined: Feb. 20 2007
From: New Holland

RE: What about a Sevilliana? (in reply to Kate) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kate
He recieved numerous awards for his contribution to flamenco

All the awards are for journalism/writing, so one could say that his contribution has been to journalism or criticism as much as to flamenco.

Original:Kate - We also dont know that he cant sing, dance or play guitar. I bet he does a bit.] Which would make him an aficionado of flamenco and an expert in journalism, wouldn't you agree?

P.S. When I quoted Ricardo the context was about Martin, not Estela [Original:Kate - Actually Zata can sing, dance as well as play guitar so I guess she qualifies. ]

Sorry, I'm not trying cause fights here, just expressing my opinion But if people can say "Those who can, do; Those who can't, teach" then I would also say "Those who can't teach, criticise"

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 29 2007 10:17:44
 
zata

Posts: 659
Joined: Jul. 17 2003
 

RE: What about a Sevilliana? (in reply to Kate) 
quote:

With all that I'd give him the benefit of the doubt that he knows what he is talking about.


I can't remember his saying anything stupid, but he can be very tough, bordering on destructive...it probably sells newspapers, because he's been a very successful critic for many years.

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Estela Zatania
www.deflamenco.com
www.expoflamenco.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 1 2008 14:37:17
 
zata

Posts: 659
Joined: Jul. 17 2003
 

RE: What about a Sevilliana? (in reply to andresito) 
quote:

"Those who can't teach, criticise"


The job title "critic" has an unfortunate connotation. In actual fact, most of what I, and most "critics" write, is at least 80% positive. You feel a responsibility to people who want to know whether they should spend their money to see something.

Most performing artists would not be able to analyze what another artist does, but they also know things a non-practicing critic could never imagine. For example critics who don't play guitar sometimes talk about the cejilla being way down the neck, forcing the singer to sing "high", or blame the guitarist for not "catching the chords" when a singer begins in a different tone from the guitar.

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Estela Zatania
www.deflamenco.com
www.expoflamenco.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 1 2008 14:48:22
 
andresito

Posts: 377
Joined: Feb. 20 2007
From: New Holland

RE: What about a Sevilliana? (in reply to zata) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: zata
The job title "critic" has an unfortunate connotation. In actual fact, most of what I, and most "critics" write, is at least 80% positive. You feel a responsibility to people who want to know whether they should spend their money to see something.


Yes, this is true of course. The word 'critic' always makes me think of the sketch from Mel Brooks 'History of the world Part 1' when the caveman draws a buffalo on the cave wall and the narrator says "The stone age witnessed the birth of the world's first artist" and the artist is so pleased with himself until another caveman comes up looking serious, strokes his chin and then urinates on the wall, and the narrator adds "... and the birth of the world's first art critic"

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 5 2008 19:53:32
 
Ailsa

Posts: 2277
Joined: Apr. 17 2007
From: South East England

RE: Cante recommendations please? (in reply to Guest) 
A friend has just lent me a box set called El Cante Flamenco. It's an anthology with all sorts of people on it - loads of famous names. It's in three parts, Origenes Cantes Basicos, Edad de Oro, and La Opera Flamenca.

I'm going to listen to it this weekend and I'm pretty excited about it. Not sure if that's a bit sad, but that's how I feel!!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 24 2008 5:11:24
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