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RE: Spanish language
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paco picado
Posts: 64
Joined: May 25 2007
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 RE: Spanish language (in reply to Ricardo)
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OK, you have raised the bar somewhat, which needs clarification. One. I assume you are from the US, which isn’t a good sign of a resident of a nation that is well travelled, unless you consider Tijuana as going abroad!. But anyway, PDL is a one off. He became a house hold name in the 70's in Spain and through out the world, when solo flamenco guitar was popular. I have been reading reviews of his concerts since the early 80's, and I cant find any evidence where he has ever done a concert tour of SOLO flamenco in recent history. He has always toured with his troupe, Cante Baile etc, although he will always play some solo stuff. Nunez you mentioned 100 concerts, some not even with Cajon LOL, so how many were with Cajon Cante Baile etc, I think they far out numbered the former. Tomatito tours with a troupe, does not tour Europe as a solo artist, meaning One guitar one person on the stage. Tomotito has branched out with pianists, because he has realised that solo flamenco guitar is dead, and has nowhere to go, musically. Riqueni, who WAS the guitarist as far as pulling off a recital solo type concert, and used to do a few gigs early nineties, would never find an audience now for a solo gig. Guitar with Orchestra that’s another thing. Same with Vicente, if I'm not mistaken doesn’t he tour with a troupe, or an Orchestra etc? I have been a keen follower of Paco Pena for years. The last solo recital he gave that Iam aware was the late 80's maybe early nineties that I went to in Liverpool. Now its almost always with a troupe.
Faucher has been pissing people off for years with his unauthorised compositions. Its just that its always been a small cottage industry with the money involved, has never been great or a money spinner, he has done it for the love of the art. And many a flamenco guitarist owes plenty to this one guy. But he has always been prepared to do a deal with anyone who complains. ‘Lets make a book of several of your finest pieces’, and make it available in every decent music shop/ guitar shop in Europe, I dont know if u have a passport to get out of the US, but I have seen the Afeedis books in virtually every good Classical Guitar shop, and general music shop throughout Europe.
Don Pohren was a great aficionado, and his views reflect most of the population of this planet. Peoples of all countries love to see singers, people dancing, and get bored watching someone twiddling around with a wooden box alone, just fact of life.
My experience I talked about re bars etc, had absolutely nothing to do with my lack of experience technique or otherwise, It would have got the same reaction if PDL had walked through the door. Because even a mega star like PDL is mainly known only in your Latin countries, . My comments generally are on the somber track. Its just the fact Iam 40 odd travelled around Europe a bit and noticed the scene. To reiterate Iam not saying Flamenco is dead just Solo is. And I recon buy the recent CD sales of PDL Tomotito etc will confirm.
Fudge
P.S not too sure about Tomotito because he is branching out to the jazz audience, don’t know if they have taken him on board. But the Jazz scene is massive
Paco
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Date Jun. 15 2007 20:57:18
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John O.
Posts: 1723
Joined: Dec. 16 2005
From: Seeheim-Jugenheim, Germany
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RE: Spanish language (in reply to paco picado)
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quote:
To be honest I can't remember what I wrote in the original text without, looking at it. But yeh. If U cant speak Spanish, and u cannot accompany Cante to a decent standard, then there is nothing else. Seranito said in the 80s I think solo flamenco guitar will one day equal in the concert hall, that of the solo Classical guitar. Well it never happened and never will, SOLO FLAMENCO GUITAR is dead. Thats why Faucher ( Affedis) is nearly going bust. There is absolutely NO market anymore with solo flamenco, unless u bring along a troupe, when was the last time anyone heard of Jaun Martin touring the country? Like Don Peron once said solo F Guitar gets boring after a few minutes, to the average punter
Paco
Hehe, you're funny man. What about accompanying dance? One of the main sources of income for most flamenco guitarists - but I forgot, there's no money to be made with flamenco anyways... 
I'm just gonna stop here, this is too silly for me. Guys, let's just ignore this dork, it's not worth the effort. (Unless of course Ricardo wants to cut him down to amuse us all - go for it)
Cante in monkey language makes monkey dance
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Date Jun. 15 2007 21:01:48
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Ron.M
Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland
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RE: Spanish language (in reply to John O.)
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I think Paco is right in saying that a simply "solo" guitar concert could be difficult to sell to young, eager venue agents these days, wanting to make a profit.
I know ToddK did a "standing ovation" solo performance in his hometown, but I think other US guitarists have a company with dance etc....maybe I'm wrong here...(?)
I think people are used to a louder, thicker sound these days, with maybe a couple of guitars, a bass to provide a foundation and cajon or drums to provide percussion of some kind.
There has definitely been a change in recorded "popular" music over the last 30 years or so, (to my ear anyway) to provide a thicker, louder, heavily edited-to-the-millisecond kinda sound, that people associate with having a good musical experience and that kinda "educates" the ear of the potential audience IMO.
This week I met a semi-pro rock/jazz guitarist who lives in Dundee.
He said he liked all kinds of guitar playing, but when I mentioned the Dundee International Guitar Festival (mainly Classical), a couple of years back, he said he hadn't gone to any of the concerts, not even Nuñez.
So there you go.
However, musical taste goes through all sorts of twists and turns, nothing ever stays the same... except for Sir Elton John and The Rolling Stones... 
So who knows if the solo recital will ever become popular again or not.
Funnily enough, I was just thinking today about one of the best live concerts I've ever seen in my life...
It was John Williams playing solo in Glasgow many years back.
(No amplification or anything...you just had to stay quiet.. )
And I'm not even keen on Classical stuff!!
I think "big time" artists draw on a mass popular audience, who know little or nothing of the music being played, but pay their money to see a legend, be it Paco de Lucia or Manitas de Plata.
That's where the big money lies IMO.
Anyway, let the thread roll!
Try not to get personal.
Discuss the "idea" NOT the "person".
(I bet Dominic is hating me for this.. )
cheers,
Ron
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A good guitar might be a good guitar
But it takes a woman to break your heart
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Date Jun. 15 2007 21:44:52
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paco picado
Posts: 64
Joined: May 25 2007
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RE: Spanish language (in reply to Arash)
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Cheers Ron. I saw John Williams, in Preston in the late 80's and really enjoyed it. The expensive amplification he was using at the time, created a great ambience for his program, that included quite a lot of Bach my first love. But that was 1998, we are in 2007, when was the last time anyone heard from John Williams doing concerts, or on the radio, in the UK, and he was regarded as the UK virtuoso. Williams must be getting on in age but no one has ever replaced him and never will. The temperament of people today in the UK and Europe follows the American disease, creating a short attention span, for government control reasons;; through the mindless soaps, reality TV etc and by Zombifing the nation through the cathod ray tube or Flat screen LOL;. to turn the nation into a hive of Worker Bees/ Zombies. That’s the world we are living in right now.Not unlike how the film The "Matrix" prophesised .
God bless
Paco
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Date Jun. 16 2007 0:03:23
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Ricardo
Posts: 14799
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: Spanish language (in reply to Ron.M)
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All I will say is being an accompanist for cante or baile is not a sell out or a way that shows the "solo guitar" is dying. It is and always was and will be a fundamental part of the art form. Most players do it by choice not by necessity. Ask Moraito for one. On the other hand, asking for accompanying palmas, cajon, second guitar, whatever, does not take away from the idea of a SOLOIST performer. Just because a flamenco guitarist wants palmas does not mean his is not a SOLOIST or giving a performance of solo guitar. I mean that is flamenco puro for cryin out loud. BUt if you want to be so pure minded that only a performance and tour that includes ONE SINGLE INDIVIDUAL, then I think that solo flamenco guitar never really LIVED much less could be in danger of dying.
But even still, any of the guys mentioned on tour with troup or not, and the vast majority of even large scale flamenco dance productions have at some point in the show, the lead guitarist ALONE on stage. Why would it be so important to include this to flamenco show or concert, even modern flamenco like Paco/Tomatito/Vicente if solo guitar is dying??? Because even the dancers and singers know that there is some percentage of the audience always who are going to be there just for the guitar. It is a nice thing to have as a contrast to any group numbers in any type of flamenco show.
So if you just dont' like palmas, cajon, or the "troup" or cante, or the spanish language or whatever, fine. You dont' HAVE to like it. But you can't say that after Paco plays a 9 minute Rondeña, and 10 minutes of Minera and Fandangos (not including bulerias and Alegrias since they have palmas or cajon), totally by himself, every concert, all around the world, that SOLO GUITAR IS DEAD.
Just look at youtube and see how many folks are into solo flamenco guitar. If anything it is at an all time HIGH.
Ricardo
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Date Jun. 16 2007 0:08:30
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andresito
Posts: 377
Joined: Feb. 20 2007
From: New Holland
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RE: Spanish language (in reply to paco picado)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: paco picado
seems like all the hard flog in learning a lingo could be in vain.
I think personally that learning another language should be something you do for the love of it, like learning to cook or something like that. Obviously non-native speakers often will have to learn a second language if they move to another country and don't want to socialize purely with other ex-pats, so you're fortunate if you can learn another language as a luxury or a hobby. I am lucky enough to have a facility and a love for languages - I think the two go together as well; having to learn something you don't enjoy is never going to end well.
It can be very frustrating with the learning curves of a second language, there's always another bridge to cross or wall to get over, but I think the best way is to immerse yourself in the language, rather than trying to learn technically. One of my profesoras also said the best way to learn a second language is 'by the pillow' i.e. having a girlfriend/boyfriend who is a native speaker of another language. 
As far as Spanish being a 'base' language, I think anyone's opinion is just that - an opinion. I am often disappointed when I translate something beautiful, poetic, profound from Spanish into English and find it becomes banal. I think all of the neo-latin languages are beautiful. Despite having German ancestry, I have to say I think that German is possibly the ugliest, coldest language to listen to (just MHO)
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Date Jun. 16 2007 5:55:55
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paco picado
Posts: 64
Joined: May 25 2007
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RE: Spanish language (in reply to Arash)
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OK whatever. With the language thing I should have said Andalucian Gitano language, that’s what the teacher said. I would like someone to show me the world sales figures of PDLs Luzia album, the last few of tomotitos last CDs. I would be amazed if anyone but guitarists bought them, because after the first few minutes they are a complete bore, and usually only a couple of tracks have Cante on them, which is what flamenco people really want to hear. These top guys have run out of ideas, Tomotito desperatly retuning his guitar into bizarre tunings just to try and get a slightly different sound . PDL just playing re worked falsetas from previous albums. These guys were innovators. Barrio Negro, a classic album. But there is only so much you can do with 3 chords. Even Flamenco guitarists dont buy solo guitarist CD's anymore, even Ricardo de Jlauna, said he stopped buying flamenco CD'S 8 years ago, because they all sound the same. Every guitarist that I have ever heard bare a few even Manola Sanulcar, the arogent pompas person he was( Once went on a master class in Cordoba) they all sound like PDL clones, right down to the last guitarist. No wonder people have lost interest. Flamenco is a live art form and struggles when being recorded.
Picado
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Date Jun. 16 2007 19:24:11
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JBASHORUN
Posts: 1839
Joined: Jan. 23 2005
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RE: Spanish language (in reply to paco picado)
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quote:
OK whatever. With the language thing I should have said Andalucian Gitano language, that’s what the teacher said. I would like someone to show me the world sales figures of PDLs Luzia album, the last few of tomotitos last CDs. I would be amazed if anyone but guitarists bought them, because after the first few minutes they are a complete bore, and usually only a couple of tracks have Cante on them, which is what flamenco people really want to hear. These top guys have run out of ideas, Tomotito desperatly retuning his guitar into bizarre tunings just to try and get a slightly different sound . PDL just playing re worked falsetas from previous albums. These guys were innovators. Barrio Negro, a classic album. But there is only so much you can do with 3 chords. Even Flamenco guitarists dont buy solo guitarist CD's anymore, even Ricardo de Jlauna, said he stopped buying flamenco CD'S 8 years ago, because they all sound the same. Every guitarist that I have ever heard bare a few even Manola Sanulcar, the arogent pompas person he was( Once went on a master class in Cordoba) they all sound like PDL clones, right down to the last guitarist. No wonder people have lost interest. Flamenco is a live art form and struggles when being recorded.
Picado
OK, you're right "in a way". But PDL is getting old now... you can't expect him to be as good (technically OR compositionally) as he was when he was 20. Tomatito, I don't much care about. But what about Gerardo Nunez? "Andando El Tiempo" has NO CANTE on it whatsoever... I love it, my friends who aren't really into Flamenco love it, and when he played in London recently, the crowd loved it too. Ok, so Nunez incorporates "jazz" into his solo Flamenco guitar, I hear you say? But its STILL SOLO FLAMENCO guitar, and damn good stuff at that.
Agreed though... traditional solo Flamenco guitar is probably a "minority interest". But like I said in another thread: if its mass-popularity you want, LOOK ELSEWHERE. Even Flamenco WITH CANTE is not exactly flying off the shelves. there will ALWAYS be a die-hard group of Flamenco fans who buy the music, and thats all that matters.
Jb
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¡Si esto no está en compas, esto no es el Flamenco!
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Date Jun. 16 2007 21:42:56
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) I have a lot of trouble learning languages academically. Luckily I can hear words once, remember them and pronounce them (like a monkey, maybe...) but I'm pretty bad at remembering rules. I speak pretty damn good english (when I try) and I know almost no rules of correct grammar, per se. But Spanish-speakers tell me my Spanish is very good (they're just being nice, I know 
At least I try. 
