full size guitar plan

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flamenco_9

Posts: 214
Joined: Jan. 15 2004

full size guitar plan

the file is here
http://www.foroflamenco.com/guitar_plan_full_size/m_63601/p_1/tmode_1/smode_1/tm.htm
the guitar I think is Hernandez and Aguado
pls add your comment and illustration about this
I wounder about page 5 any help?
what u think that guitar is flamenco or classical according to fan bracing.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 3 2007 10:04:18

Per Hallgren

Posts: 241
Joined: Jul. 1 2006
From: Sweden

RE: full size guitar plan (in reply to flamenco_9)

Hernandez y Aguado are known mainly as classical builders. Although they have made a few flamenco guitars the probability that the plans is showing such a guitars is very small. However the plans seem to be quite crudely done since some details are drawn incorrect according to my experience of H y A guitars. Where have you found the plan?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 3 2007 11:59:26

r0bbie

Posts: 160
Joined: Feb. 11 2007
From: Holland

RE: full size guitar plan (in reply to flamenco_9)

This plan is close to the plans in the book Making Master Guitars by Roy Courtnall. At least in some points but the depth of the body differs a couple of milimeters for instance and there are more differences but that could be if you measure two different guitars I think. And also the neck is thicker at the head then where it joins the body in the plan you have got. I have not seen this yet on any other plan but I am no expert.

It looks like someone made this in a hurry....

Rob.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 3 2007 15:54:09

flamenco_9

Posts: 214
Joined: Jan. 15 2004

RE: full size guitar plan (in reply to Per Hallgren)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Per Hallgren

Hernandez y Aguado are known mainly as classical builders. Although they have made a few flamenco guitars the probability that the plans is showing such a guitars is very small. However the plans seem to be quite crudely done since some details are drawn incorrect according to my experience of H y A guitars. Where have you found the plan?

hi Per Hallgren
I got it from emule
what things that you mentioned are drawn incorrect ?
and what you think about this plan any ideas or suggestions?
thanx!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 3 2007 18:40:48

flamenco_9

Posts: 214
Joined: Jan. 15 2004

RE: full size guitar plan (in reply to Per Hallgren)

deleted

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 3 2007 18:43:00

flamenco_9

Posts: 214
Joined: Jan. 15 2004

RE: full size guitar plan (in reply to r0bbie)

quote:

ORIGINAL: r0bbie

This plan is close to the plans in the book Making Master Guitars by Roy Courtnall. At least in some points but the depth of the body differs a couple of milimeters for instance and there are more differences but that could be if you measure two different guitars I think. And also the neck is thicker at the head then where it joins the body in the plan you have got. I have not seen this yet on any other plan but I am no expert.

It looks like someone made this in a hurry....

Rob.

hii hii r0bbie
can you tell regarding the top thickness that mentioned in your book
any thing else that not mentioned in the plan.
thanx!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 3 2007 18:50:59

r0bbie

Posts: 160
Joined: Feb. 11 2007
From: Holland

RE: full size guitar plan (in reply to flamenco_9)

Hi, I did post a reply earlyer but it got lost somewhere....

I compared the drawing with the plans in the book from Courtnall and it seems the body is 4 to 5 mm wider and deeper.

The back and sides are 2 mm according to this book.
The thickness of the neck at the nut should be 21.7mm and not 27. That would make the neck decrease in thickness from the nut to the body and I have not seen this on other guitars yet. I am no expert but I got about 10 plans telling different.

I dont understand your question about page 5 but again, its the same as in the book of Courtnall. The only thing missing is the thickness of the extention of the heel that is glued on the back, I guesed it but if you want to know for sure I'dd ask the luthers among us

Rob

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 3 2007 23:17:50

flamenco_9

Posts: 214
Joined: Jan. 15 2004

RE: full size guitar plan (in reply to flamenco_9)

hii r0bbie
thanx for responding!
regarding the neck my guitar is suspiro and the nick is thicker from the side of the nut comparing to the side of heel maybe that is the old school my guitar maybe 30 years old.
what you think is it flamenco or classical? does the less fan braces means it is flamenco?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 4 2007 2:30:00

Per Hallgren

Posts: 241
Joined: Jul. 1 2006
From: Sweden

RE: full size guitar plan (in reply to flamenco_9)

...

quote:

what things that you mentioned are drawn incorrect ?

Well, the profile of the fan struts is drawn incorrect and the neck block too, i.e. compared to the three HyA I have seen in real life and in pictures. I say as Robbie, the plan look very alike the plan that Cournall sell, which also is drawn incorrect by the way...

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 4 2007 5:41:41

flamenco_9

Posts: 214
Joined: Jan. 15 2004

RE: full size guitar plan (in reply to Per Hallgren)

hii Per Hallgren
thank you again
can you tell what is the wrong with fan braces
and what you think the guitar is classical of flamenco?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 4 2007 14:46:25

flamenco_9

Posts: 214
Joined: Jan. 15 2004

RE: full size guitar plan (in reply to flamenco_9)

hey lutheriers can you come in please share us your expereince!!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 4 2007 14:48:09

r0bbie

Posts: 160
Joined: Feb. 11 2007
From: Holland

RE: full size guitar plan (in reply to flamenco_9)

@ Flamenco_9 I dont know if it's a flamenco or classical. I think it is a light guitar so it could be a flamenco but I could be wrong as well

Perhaps you allready know but Per is one of the luthers.... view his profile

@Per

You say you have seen three guitars made by HyA and they where different then Courtnall writes in his book. Could that be because you measured different guitars or is it a well known fact that Courtnall messed up the drawings a bit? He claims to have measured three guitars as well, from 1963, 1966 and 1968.

Just curious

Rob

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 4 2007 15:26:43

Per Hallgren

Posts: 241
Joined: Jul. 1 2006
From: Sweden

RE: full size guitar plan (in reply to r0bbie)

Two of the three guitars that Courtnall used for his book was, or had been (don't remember clearly) in the possession of a man who gave me a thick bunch of photos of these guitars when he visited me to buy a Hernandez y Aguado guitar that I had for sale. He is a collector and have owned a lot of H y A guitars, Fletas, etc. We talked about the difference between the published drawings and the real instruments. To me it seem as if Courtnall and his drawing guy choose to show a lot of the things on the drawings as "one-size-fits-all" symbolic details. For example a lot of the fan struts are drawn exactly the same on all the plans and very very different from the real instrument struts. All the fan struts on the one that I sold to the collector and the pictures I have from his other HyA guitars are very similar in shape, and totally different from the shape on the plan, despite the fact that the guitars are from a 7 year long period.

I would be very surprised if the guitar on "your" plan is not a classical guitar. The HyA guitar from 1963, IIRC, is the one which the plan is made from

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 4 2007 16:34:04

Jim Opfer

Posts: 1876
Joined: Jul. 19 2003
From: Glasgow, Scotland.

RE: full size guitar plan (in reply to flamenco_9)

That's interesting, set out as a graph.
Is there a geometric basis for the shape with centre point locations and tangents etc? Bit like the 'golden section' or something. Just looks arbitrary to see a 'shape' with no underlying structure.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 4 2007 16:36:07

flamenco_9

Posts: 214
Joined: Jan. 15 2004

RE: full size guitar plan (in reply to flamenco_9)

hiii Per Hallgren and r0bbie
thanx for responding
that plan as I told you I get it via emule and here is the file name
[luthier-lutherie]-Plano.Guitarra.Clasica
it named as classical but as r0bbie said I think it is flamenco coz of smaller and shalower body.
Per what make you sure it classical not flamenco can you tell us about this point is less fan brace make the guitar more flamenco?
I saw HyA in your site..woow it is peice of art really
that pic in white and black looks like fan brace like Barbero.
it seems that there there are another systems that HyA used here is a pic I got from a web site that shows HyA bracing.

Attachment (1)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 4 2007 18:21:40

flamenco_9

Posts: 214
Joined: Jan. 15 2004

RE: full size guitar plan (in reply to Jim Opfer)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jim Opfer

That's interesting, set out as a graph.
Is there a geometric basis for the shape with centre point locations and tangents etc? Bit like the 'golden section' or something. Just looks arbitrary to see a 'shape' with no underlying structure.

hiii Jim can you do that for us..I think you are arch. engineer..right?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 4 2007 18:26:44

Per Hallgren

Posts: 241
Joined: Jul. 1 2006
From: Sweden

RE: full size guitar plan (in reply to flamenco_9)

Many makers (if not most of us) use several different bracing systems and HyA was not different in this case.

You ask why I consider the plan to show a classic guitar. There are at least two obvious details proving that this is not a flamenco guitar IMO, and that is the side depth and the height of the bridge. Typical for a classical guitar rather than a flamenco.

Jim, as the design person I can feel that you are I would like to recommend an interesting book about geometrical construction of musical instruments. The author is Kevin Coates (have forgot the exact title). The book was published in the late eighties and is probably out of print but try at the library.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 4 2007 19:10:58

flamenco_9

Posts: 214
Joined: Jan. 15 2004

RE: full size guitar plan (in reply to Per Hallgren)

hii Per Hallgren
so is it that simple..if the bridge was lowerd it will be flamenco what about the braces what it tell?
for you as luthier if you have a classical guitar and you want to make it flamenco what modification you will do to get it sound flamenco?
we are not talking about the woods coz same woods are now used for both types.
and bridge height things can be easily managed.
I know maybe I am asking for your secrets but I hope you answer!!
thanx alot.
ps. the body depth in the plan 100-106 mm it is thin for classical...am not sure?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 4 2007 19:56:28

TANúñez

Posts: 2559
Joined: Jul. 10 2003
From: TEXAS

RE: full size guitar plan (in reply to flamenco_9)

flamenco_9,

Don't forget one very important factor, the thickness of the top.

_____________________________

Tom Núñez
www.instagram.com/tanunezguitars

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 4 2007 20:24:06

Per Hallgren

Posts: 241
Joined: Jul. 1 2006
From: Sweden

RE: full size guitar plan (in reply to flamenco_9)

quote:

so is it that simple..if the bridge was lowerd it will be flamenco

Never said that. And you can not change just the bridge height either... And you don't take a " classical guitar and you want to make it flamenco". The classical guitar and the flamenco guitar are close relatives, so close that many people can't se the difference, but they are different in a subtle way. As Tom points out it is much about thicknesses of the wooden parts but also in subtle geometric relations.

The body in the plan is not thin for a classical guitar, rather the opposite actually. A flamenco is usually even thinner.

Complicated, isn't it?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 4 2007 21:30:04

JBASHORUN

Posts: 1839
Joined: Jan. 23 2005

RE: full size guitar plan (in reply to Per Hallgren)

quote:

The body in the plan is not thin for a classical guitar, rather the opposite actually. A flamenco is usually even thinner

If I remember rightly, a classical guitar is, on average, 9 or 10cm deep. If you buy a "cheap" Flamenco guitar, it may not be much different, but a luthier-made one is usually LESS than 9mm.

So, what with the BRIDGE; the DEPTH of the body; and the SOUNDBOARD thickness, I would guess that the plans are for a CLASSICAL guitar.

But I could be wrong...

Jb

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¡Si esto no está en compas, esto no es el Flamenco!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 4 2007 21:39:32

r0bbie

Posts: 160
Joined: Feb. 11 2007
From: Holland

RE: full size guitar plan (in reply to flamenco_9)

quote:

If I remember rightly, a classical guitar is, on average, 9 or 10mm deep

Geeee... then I made mine way to deep with 10 cm

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 4 2007 22:25:46

JBASHORUN

Posts: 1839
Joined: Jan. 23 2005

RE: full size guitar plan (in reply to r0bbie)

quote:

Geeee... then I made mine way to deep with 10 cm

LOL, Robbie, I have TWO cheap classicals, and BOTH measure 9cm in depth. But 10cm is also common. And, in many cheaper Flamencos (like my Yamaha for example) there is no difference at all. The guitar I just finished measured 8mm.

Jb

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¡Si esto no está en compas, esto no es el Flamenco!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 4 2007 22:36:22

r0bbie

Posts: 160
Joined: Feb. 11 2007
From: Holland

RE: full size guitar plan (in reply to flamenco_9)

Having fun to JB, but maybe a English mm is a lot bigger then the Dutch mm.
A guitar with a dept of 9mm would be this thick "-----" depending on the resolution of you monitor of course

So I think you mean 100mm or 10 cm.

It would be nice for a travel guitar tho

ad an foldable neck and you are in business

Rob.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 4 2007 23:25:15

JBASHORUN

Posts: 1839
Joined: Jan. 23 2005

RE: full size guitar plan (in reply to flamenco_9)

HAHAAAA!!! Sorry man, said milimetres instead of CENTIMETERS!!! What can I say:

It was late and the bottle was empty!

Jb

PS: I edited the posts to their correct measurements.

_____________________________

¡Si esto no está en compas, esto no es el Flamenco!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 4 2007 23:34:12

r0bbie

Posts: 160
Joined: Feb. 11 2007
From: Holland

RE: full size guitar plan (in reply to flamenco_9)

quote:

It was late and the bottle was empty!

mmm heard that one before.... let me think...

Cheers!
Rob.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 4 2007 23:42:38

flamenco_9

Posts: 214
Joined: Jan. 15 2004

RE: full size guitar plan (in reply to flamenco_9)

Hii everybody
back to that plan
if we make the body thiner
and make the top 2mm
what else can do to the braces?
here is a pic that is from the plan I named and numberd all contenets by letters and numbers....what adjusment can be done to get that guitar into flamenco or in between flamenco and classical sound.

Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

Attachment (1)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 5 2007 20:32:11

flamenco_9

Posts: 214
Joined: Jan. 15 2004

RE: full size guitar plan (in reply to flamenco_9)

is the directions up-right is right??

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 5 2007 21:09:02

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: full size guitar plan (in reply to flamenco_9)

Flamenco_9

You asked me to join this thread.
I have very little to say because the plan you show is very far from my understanding of a Spanish guitar, being classical or flamenco. I have not seen the file you uploaded when you started the thread, just the picture.
If you make this one on a standard guitar size and with a 2mm soundboard, I could imagine it would boom out and be bassy and low pulsation. If you want to build a flamenco guitar, I will advice you to use another plan.

Other things from the thread. Flamenco guitars dont have to have their soundboard thinner. Romanillos worked 2 - 2,1mm in spruce on his classical and some flamencos are thicker. Its all about balancing your concept. No golden rules.

Another thing. There´s absolutely nothing wrong in making a flamenco 10cm deep. Reyes has done so and many others. Again, its all about balance in your concept. My guitars are around 9,5cm deep at the endblock.

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Blog: http://news-from-the-workshop.blogspot.com/

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 6 2007 10:35:15

flamenco_9

Posts: 214
Joined: Jan. 15 2004

RE: full size guitar plan (in reply to flamenco_9)

hiii Anders..thank you for joining!!!
I know what you are talking and I can understand that.
I know the plan is not everything and you need to adjust the braces heights and top thickness acorrding to what the wood will tell you while you are making it maybe tapping on various parts of the top to get the perfect vibration you like to hear it is like when oscultate to heart or chest of a patients and what you hear guid you to what you do and what you look for!!
but my quetions about that plan (which supposed to be HyA plan), what things can be done theoriticaly to get that guitar in flamenco or between flamenco and classic.
I hope am not bothering you and I know it is defficult to answer theoriticaly.
thanx amigo!!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 6 2007 19:30:05