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Picado - Alternate fingers?
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a_arnold
Posts: 558
Joined: Jul. 30 2006
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 RE: Picado - Alternate fingers? (in reply to Stu)
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My teacher (Carlos Ramos) was (like Sabicas) a student of Ramon Montoya; he was a real stickler for tradition, but didn't seem to care that I had developed the habit of dragging my finger to the next string on descending scales. Doing it that way helped me learn a fast picado because feeling the next string with the same finger helps keep me accurate by keeping my finger positioned perfectly. Changing fingers while changing strings just seemed like one more thing to think about. As a result, descending scales were initially easier than ascending, but developing speed in this way eventually helped my ascending scales too, and eventually I got to the point where I don't think about either.
But Sabicas-style dragging may be a bad habit. I later took classical lessons, and my teacher was horrified. But I was also faster at picado than he was. A LOT faster, stronger, and cleaner, both ascending and descending. On the other hand, that habit probably made it more difficult for me to learn a proper free stroke. And I am slower at that technique. Still faster than my teacher, but slow by flamenco standards.
Incidentally, my flamenco teacher's zen-like secret to learn how to do fast picado: Start fast. Don't start by doing a run slow and then trying to speed it up. People who already have a fast picado can learn a new run that way, but that's the wrong way to learn the technique. Instead, start with a short easy run that you can do fast. The key: It has to be easy enough to do fast from the very beginning. Once you have that, then increase the difficulty, not the speed.
The reason? Picado is too fast for thought. Do a run slowly and you will have time to think about the notes. Try to speed it up, and at some point you have to stop thinking about it. Trouble is, there's no transitional state between thinking and not thinking, so at that point you begin to stumble and get discouraged. You feel like you've hit a brick wall. So go around the wall.
There are no gradations between thinking and not thinking, but there are gradations of difficulty. Generally: Descending is easier than ascending. Short is easier than long. first position is easier than higher positions. Capo is easier than no capo. Some keys are easier. Treble strings are easier than bass. Reversals of direction on the same string are easier than changing strings.
I swear, I had a fast picado and could do almost anything I wanted within 3 months after I understood this principle. He opened my eyes.
Tony A.
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Date Apr. 22 2007 3:00:16
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Ricardo
Posts: 14819
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: Picado - Alternate fingers? (in reply to a_arnold)
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At first I was thinking this is not good (start fast not slow), but after I thought about it, it is actually a good idea, but I have a different way to describe it. Speed bursts, little sequences of notes that you can do with control and in rhythm. Gradually let the speed burst get longer or more complex. Anyway, yes you will "get it" much quicker that way rather than simply running the entire scale run or whatever, VERY slow, gradually getting faster.
The important thing though either way you approach it, is RHYTHMIC CONTROL. Don't take "start fast" to mean you just go for it all sloppy and out of control. About bridging the gap between "thinking" and just going fast, actually, I can "think" about the rhythm at least at the proper speed or faster, so in a sense, for me Picado is NOT "too fast for thought". You know, similar to the Indian musicians who will "talk" out the fast phrases before trying to exectute them on the tabla or sitar or whatever. 
Ricardo
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Date Apr. 22 2007 7:10:23
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a_arnold
Posts: 558
Joined: Jul. 30 2006
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RE: Picado - Alternate fingers? (in reply to guitarbuddha)
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quote:
What worries me about what you are saying is that you feel a gap between playing slowly and playing fast when working on pieces.
Actually, David, that's almost exactly what I didn't say. The point I was trying (in my admittedly incoherent way) to make, is that there's a discontinuity between fast and slow when learning the technique, NOT when working on learning new pieces. I already have the technique, and yes, I do learn new pieces the way you describe, but, again, I already have the technique. It's a mistake for a teacher to assume a student should learn a new technique the way an experienced guitarist learns new pieces that happen to use the same technique. There is a HUGE difference.
And when I say I play faster than I can think, that doesn't mean I am ignoring mistakes and getting sloppy. It means I'm no longer thinking about what note comes next. It means I know the passage well enough that I am free to think about expression, emphasis, etc. My teacher used to call this "hand memory" vs "mind memory". He applied the concept to technique as well as to music. The more you commit to hand memory, the more your mind is freed to concentrate on other important stuff. Like expression.
And picado is one of the techniques that is hard to get into hand memory.
Think about tremolo. Another technique in which the notes come too fast for the player to think about each one. And SURELY you don't think about each note in tremolo. And yes, I know tremolo and picado are very different, and tremolo is easier to learn, but the principle is similar if not the same. Think back to your first halting attempts at tremolo. You got it quickly, and (if you're like me) it took much more time to get a clean fast picado run going, but in both, you had to get to the point where you didn't have to think about each note. To a point where the technique became natural.
The point where it was committed to hand memory.
But with picado, there is a PATH to that point that makes the passage easier: start with an easy run you can play cleanly and fast, and progress to fast and difficult. Don't start slow and difficult, and expect to increase speed until you can play fast and difficult passages. That way lies frustration.
I suppose the absolute easiest picado is simple (clean, fast) alternation of a single note. Most students can learn that as quickly as they learn first-string tremolo. Quicker. And at that point they have the embryonic beginning of the technique. From that point, I maintain that taking that clean, already-fast picado and and increasing the difficulty of the passages is the most effective way to learn the technique. I certainly find it is the most effective way to teach it.
In fact, the principle of increased difficulty also applies to learning tremolo -- it's just that there are fewer steps. Change to strings other than the first; fit in 3-note triplets (like in Tarrega's Recuerdos de la Alhambra bar 15). 4- note tremolo.
quote:
Now this sounds a lot like that your ability breaks down at medium tempo
No. A good teacher will guide students around that barrier. My ability broke down at some intermediate level of difficulty. Still does, because there are always challenges of difficulty. But NOT speed.
Again, here you are focused on increasing speed until the technique breaks down, and ignoring the more productive path of increasing difficulty. I don't want to seem argumentative, here, but it seems to me you are thinking like an experienced player, not an experienced teacher.
Either that or I'm not communicating very effectively.
What you describe above is, again, exactly what I didn't do when I learned, and exactly what my teacher said was the worst way to learn the technique. For my teacher, for me, and for my students, learning fast picado is about avoiding exactly the speed-dependent breakdown you talk about. About going around that barrier rather than butting the head against it.
I don't know how to say it any more clearly. To learn the technique, increase levels of difficulty, NOT levels of speed. As a progressing student, there was a level of DIFFICULTY where my ability broke down. To challenge me, my teacher always took me to that boundary. But speed? I (like you, I'm sure) was lightning fast at simple alternation of a single note from day one. And I doubt I've gotten much (if any) faster since. But now I can play far more difficult passages AS fast.
Don't know if I made the point this time or not.
Cheers,
Tony Arnold
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Date Apr. 22 2007 17:04:32
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a_arnold
Posts: 558
Joined: Jul. 30 2006
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RE: Picado - Alternate fingers? (in reply to r0bbie)
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rObbie-
I think that if a student sits down and practices playing a single-note picado -- just one note, over and over, with no change in pitch, then that speed will probably be close to the limit that student will eventually achieve when playing more complex runs. That is a generalization based on my experience, and all generalizations should be questioned, but if I apply this generalization to myself, I would guess that I have made no more than a 10-20 percent increase in speed since I began trying to develop my picado, but I have developed a many-fold increase in the complexity of what I can do at that speed.
I suspect that if you can play 4 clean notes per second, you probably have the necessary physical equipment. The next steps are to build in difficulty -- while keeping at that speed.
If I set my metronome at 208 bpm (the max) I can cleanly hit about 2.5 to 3 notes per beat on a simple straightforward descending run in first position. I guess that translates to about 6 notes per second. After that, I begin to get sloppy. I have chosen Sabicas as my role model for precision, speed, and strength, but I doubt I'll ever get there in all 3 categories. And I am still improving the complexity of what I can do (although not the speed, so much), so I can't say my insights into picado are complete.
I'm still faster at some things than others. Probably everyone is. I'm faster descending than ascending, faster on treble than on bass, faster in first position than higher. Faster with a capo than without, faster on polished new strings than on old or rough-textured ones. Faster when I am fresh but warmed up. Faster in some keys than others. And sometimes faster for no reason I can explain. Sometimes the run just seems to fit the hand, and I have no idea why. But I think all that is as it should be.
Good luck to you!
Tony A.
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Date Apr. 22 2007 21:16:45
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a_arnold
Posts: 558
Joined: Jul. 30 2006
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RE: Picado - Alternate fingers? (in reply to r0bbie)
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Hey rObbie.
I think 10 notes a second is too fast for me. It's not that easy for me to estimate either. People have told me I'm as fast as Sabicas, but I'm totally, completely, utterly sure that isn't so. These are people who like flamenco but don't play themselves, so I can't take them too seriously. So I doubt I'm 2.5 times faster than you.
If you haven't been playing very long, it's far too soon to become discouraged. Remember, what I said applies to students who have been playing long enough that they can easily do a picado on a single repeating note (without having to think about coordinating left and right hand). These are students who already have a pretty good tremolo, if that is a measure. I'd suggest checking yourself from time to time by playing imimimimimimim ... etc on a single note. Measure to see if you are getting faster. When you reach the maximum there, you may be close to your physical limitation, in my experience.
On the other hand David (guitarbuddha) says he has increased the speed at which he can do a 12-beat passage, so my experience may not be a valid generalization. As he says, it's hard to judge without being in the same room. I, too have increased speed if I use David's measure. I have increased the speed at which I can do all difficult passages (I take a 12 beat run to be more difficult than a single repeated note) -- but, paradoxically, I have NOT achieved this by increasing my speed! I have done it by increasing the difficulty of the passages without diminishing the speed very much at all.
David is certainly right that stamina is an important part of a good picado. If I understand his use of "stamina" correctly.
Certainly going from a single repeated note to a 6-note passage on the same string . . . to a 6 note passage on 2 strings . . . to a 10 note descending passage . . . to a 12 note descending ... to 12 notes with reversals, to 12 notes with longer ascending parts. At some point along that road of increasing difficulty, a beginning student will stumble. I wouldn't call that a lack of stamina. I would call it inability to maintain left/right hand coordination long enough to cross a difficulty barrier. It's not a matter of getting tired. 12 notes doesn't tire anybody out. That's more like being unable to juggle. Coordination or concentration break down, not endurance.
But stamina is still very important. To me, stamina means maintaining strength and coordination without tiring. And that is surprisingly important to picado. Something you might try when you practice is playing the notes stronger (louder and cleaner) rather than trying to become faster. After a while you may find that you are also playing faster as a result. This is because playing louder and more clearly increases your sense of certainty about the notes you are hitting. And that increases the speed at which you can be certain. And that kind of playing does require stamina. You may notice you get sloppier when your hands are tired. At that point you have begun to reach your stamina limit. Time to practice something else and stop beating your head against the speed wall.
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Date Apr. 23 2007 15:25:24
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Ricardo
Posts: 14819
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: Picado - Alternate fingers? (in reply to a_arnold)
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quote:
For my teacher, for me, and for my students, learning fast picado is about avoiding exactly the speed-dependent breakdown you talk about.
I sort of defended your idea that it might save time to go fast at first, doing bursts of speed. But the problem about the idea of "speed dependent breakdown" being avoided is, that is what RHYTHM is all about, and it is of the utmost importance to control rhythm when doing picados. It is fine if you want to do your alternations as fast as possible at first, but ultimately you will need to control those alternations to a very specific speed and number in order to play in time. What I find is there are quite a few folks who can play fast picados, but they can't play "a bit slower" if necessary. So when they come to the picado part, they rush and the end result is out of control. So even if you can go fast and are working on the complexity of runs or whatever, you still need to be able to control your alternations from 60 bpm all the way up to 240 or whatever the final speed or your own personal limit may be. And speaking of bpms brings me to my next point.
quote:
I think 10 notes a second is too fast for me. It's not that easy for me to estimate either.
What this red flags in me as a teacher is that you are not truely aware of the precise importance of rhythm when "clocking" the number or notes you can do with a metronome. You say 3 note or 2.5 notes at 208 bpm. There is a HUGE difference there. Can you do 3 notes and keep them indefinately? That is rhythm. If you are not quite getting 3 note, or feel sometimes hitting more notes than that when warm, well, then you have no control at all. You are just "going for it", which is no good.
Everyone can clock themselves accurately with a metronme. It is not about a speed contest, cramming notes in between clicks, it is about controling the time and space between the clicks. 6 notes per beat, 6 notes at 60 bpm is 6 notes per second. 3 notes specifically at 208 is the same as 6 notes at 104 bpm. That is 10.4 notes per second. Regardless if you play a complex passage or ONE note repeating, if you can't control the rhythm of those notes, even and always the correct number, you are not playing with control, and really don't have what I consider any "speed" at all.
If you want to understand how fast you can play, get a metronome out. 7 notes alternate i-m, the first note has to be ON the first click, the last note right on the next click. 6 notes per beat. Regardless if you do one note repeating or the sequence of notes, you should find your speed limit the same. If not, you have a control issue.
E-0-0-0-0-0-0-0----------------0-1-3-1---
B-------------------------0-1-3----------------
G------------------------------------------------
D------------------------------------------------
A-------------------------------------------------
E-------------------------------------------------
If you can do this at 70 bpm, that is fit all 7 notes from one click to the next, and do it repeatedly, indefinately, then you are playing 7 notes per second. If you can do it at 100bpm, then you are capable to handle 10 notes per second. I read some where Sabicas was clocked at 12.x notes per second. That would be in the 120 bpm-130 bpm range. That PDL bulerias triplet picado he does in rito y geografia is about 132 bpm (13.2 notes per second).
So only after you can control the number of notes rhythmically, does your "speed" have any real purpose. IMO of course, some folks actually like fast and sloppy music.
Ricardo
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Date Apr. 23 2007 17:11:27
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a_arnold
Posts: 558
Joined: Jul. 30 2006
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RE: Picado - Alternate fingers? (in reply to Stu)
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Okay, rObbie, you were right.
I took the time to sit down and actually check myself carefully, and I play comfortably up to 9 notes per second for 2 (or more) cycles of bulerias compas. I can go longer without mistakes, but not faster without sacrificing clarity and proper emphasis. But, as Ricardo implies, speed is a tool, not an end in itself.
I don't LIKE playing that fast, and I rarely feel the need to do so. I do, however, like having that extra room to back off a little.
And David is right, too. Asquestions in this forum can only take you so far. You have some potentially useful ideas to play with here. If they help, great. Let us know. If not, get a good teacher and try something else.
Tony Arnold
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Date Apr. 24 2007 1:19:47
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Ricardo
Posts: 14819
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: Picado - Alternate fingers? (in reply to r0bbie)
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quote:
Well, that's not the whole truth I think. You are right when you say that you need to controll the rhythm as well no doubt about that. But if you want to study a piece you have to know you limits so you can adapt the speed of the piece or dont play it at all.
Well, that was not my whole quote either!  But anyway, true, if you can't play the thing anywhere close to the actual tempo, you may have to put it aside until you develop that speed. Maybe you never will. The cool thing about flamenco, is you don't have to play the entire "piece" by Sabicas or whomever. Flamenco solo pieces are mixed falsetas. If you can play it all except the 12 note per second picado run, then you don't have to do THAT falseta. It is totally legal in flamenco, unlike in classical music interpreting Bach or whatever. But it does not mean you have the ENTIRE piece 40 bpm slower than it should be for the sake of ONE run in one falseta. Just toss it out if it is too hard, and do the rest well and in compas, up to speed.
Also, most folks left hand is usually faster than the right. I mean, I have not yet met someone who's right hand was amazingly speedy, but the left just could not keep up with it. By that I mean, there are some runs that your left hand can handle at tempo that the right hand can't, and in flamenco it is again OK to do legato if it means you save the compas and feeling of the tempo. I mean I can play that run in Rito y Geografia that Paco does, but with some legatos. So even though I can't do that accurate picking with the right hand i am m, I can still do some sort of justice to THAT falseta by just doing the legatos, but keeping the compas very clear and up to speed.
So just some ideas to think about.
Ricardo
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Date Apr. 24 2007 4:44:47
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