Soundboards: tap-tones, flexing, grain patterns

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JBASHORUN

Posts: 1839
Joined: Jan. 23 2005

Soundboards: tap-tones, flexing, gra...

Hi everyone,

I was reading a post by a luthier recently... I think it was in the thread regarding how to achieve "The Conde Sound". In it, he mentioned that in achieving the desired tone, it was of great help if you knew how to use tap-tones and flexing to get the soundboard right.

Well, I've just bought myself a Euro Spruce soundboard. My decision for choosing this particular one, was because the grain pattern was very narrow/close together, and straight. Is this the right way of thinking?

What I would also be curious to know, is how I can use tap-tones and flexing to understand my soundboard....

Can I tap the soundboard pieces (even at this early stage, when they are in their raw, seperated form) and get any information from what I hear/feel?

And when I have finally joined the soundboard pieces, how can I use tapping and flexing to understand the state of the soundboard and its influence on the tone I am trying to achieve?

I do understand that this is quite a complex subject. And I plan to ask Pablo about it in more detail when I visit his workshop. But for the moment, if anyone can point me in the right direction, it would be appreciated.

Thanks!

James

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 20 2006 14:44:30

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Soundboards: tap-tones, flexing,... (in reply to JBASHORUN)

Sorry James

I pass. To difficult to explain on a forum and very time consuming to write down.

Besides, you are on a School, no. I find that its the best place to start.

Un saludo

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 20 2006 17:29:52

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: Soundboards: tap-tones, flexing,... (in reply to JBASHORUN)

>My decision for choosing this particular one, was because the grain pattern >was very narrow/close together, and straight. Is this the right way of thinking?
-------------
Fine grain is nothing more than a cosmetic consideration much like uniform color. Once you have made sure there is minimal runout the most important consideration in choosing a top is stiffness to mass. With experience that can be intuited by flexing each panel across the grain. It works best if you have several sets of topwood all cut to similar size so you can compare stiffness across a large sampling. With experience you get a feel for it, after a few years just handling the wood and listening to the sound of your skin touching the wood will tell you a lot.

John Shelton

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 21 2006 15:20:13

DoctorX2k2

Posts: 211
Joined: Jun. 14 2006
From: Quebec City, Canada

RE: Soundboards: tap-tones, flexing,... (in reply to JBASHORUN)

Cumpiano seems to think taptones are way overrated. I wish I could find the article though.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 21 2006 21:51:53

Ramón

Posts: 440
Joined: Feb. 23 2005
From: La Jolla, Ca

RE: Soundboards: tap-tones, flexing,... (in reply to JBASHORUN)

Brian Burns goes into it quite a bit....

"If you're interested in wood testing, contact me, and I'll send you the handout from my talks at the Healdsburg Guitar Festivals"

I think if you paid a small consulting fee, he'd spend some time on the phone with you and probably walk you through some tests you could do yourself, but you'd have to chat with him and see what he says...

http://www.lessonsinlutherie.com/woodtestingandvoichirez.html

He gave me a ton of info...

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 22 2006 0:22:24

JBASHORUN

Posts: 1839
Joined: Jan. 23 2005

RE: Soundboards: tap-tones, flexing,... (in reply to JBASHORUN)

Thanks amigos, some useful information here. I'm not expecting to master this art overnight, but its a step in the right direction.

Cheers,

Jb

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 22 2006 10:14:24

Armando

Posts: 302
Joined: May 27 2005
From: Zürich, Switzerland

RE: Soundboards: tap-tones, flexing,... (in reply to Ramón)

Originally by DoctorX2k2

quote:

Cumpiano seems to think taptones are way overrated. I wish I could find the article though.

I don't think a taptone is unimportant, because a dead sounding piece of wood will rarely produce a good sounding instrument. The thing is, that one has to know what to listen for. Evaluating a plate just by holding it with two fingers and taping it, will tell you only partially what quality the plate has in terms of its acoustical properties. The pitch of the tap tone depends on the thickness of the plate. In order to get more or less meaningful results, one has to make sure all plates have same dimensions when taped. It's also important to have various soundboards at hand to compare with each other. When i go for soundboard purchase i spend easily about two hours to evaluate a dozen of soundboards.
I use to bring one of my favourite soundboards as a point of reference when purchasing new stuff.

Armando

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 16 2006 21:19:47

DoctorX2k2

Posts: 211
Joined: Jun. 14 2006
From: Quebec City, Canada

RE: Soundboards: tap-tones, flexing,... (in reply to JBASHORUN)

JB, if you're still looking for info about tap tones, follow this link and download the movies... very informative. Ervin Somogyi teaching a class : Link

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 6 2007 3:22:10

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Soundboards: tap-tones, flexing,... (in reply to JBASHORUN)

There´s this book about tap tuning. New I think:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1423423275/ref=pe_pe_5050_3954100_pe_snp_275

I will buy it. I have his "The Luthiers Handbook" which I dont think much of, but this might be more interesting. I just hop its about tap tuning using your ears and not some weird electronic machine....... I myself use a little home made wooden hammer with a felt pad and try to reach Zen while tapping. You feel good afterwards

I tell you what I think when I´ve read it.

Happy tap tuning every one

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 6 2007 8:14:20

DoctorX2k2

Posts: 211
Joined: Jun. 14 2006
From: Quebec City, Canada

RE: Soundboards: tap-tones, flexing,... (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

What I find out of reach so far about tap tones is :
Ok, you know what to do to affect monopole, cross dipole and long dipole, but what kind of tap tone are we looking for at some X location on the top. It can be so different from a bracing pattern to another. What do you do Anders? Do you "record" tap tones of a good guitar at many location on the soundboard and try to achieve the same results on the next one?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 6 2007 13:59:19

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Soundboards: tap-tones, flexing,... (in reply to JBASHORUN)

Hi doctor. I wrote a little further up the page:

quote:

I pass. To difficult to explain on a forum and very time consuming to write down.

My best tip is to stay in bed one hour longer in the morning. It makes taptuning easyer to understand

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 6 2007 18:14:34

DoctorX2k2

Posts: 211
Joined: Jun. 14 2006
From: Quebec City, Canada

RE: Soundboards: tap-tones, flexing,... (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anders Eliasson

Hi doctor. I wrote a little further up the page:

quote:

I pass. To difficult to explain on a forum and very time consuming to write down.

My best tip is to stay in bed one hour longer in the morning. It makes taptuning easyer to understand

I thought my question was specific enough to read a yes or no

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 6 2007 19:27:04

JBASHORUN

Posts: 1839
Joined: Jan. 23 2005

RE: Soundboards: tap-tones, flexing,... (in reply to JBASHORUN)

Thanks guys. I will also ask Pablo Requena if he has any tips on taptones/flexing when I visit his workshop next week.

Jb

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 6 2007 20:24:31

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Soundboards: tap-tones, flexing,... (in reply to JBASHORUN)

quote:

I thought my question was specific enough to read a yes or no

Ok... Ok... The answer would then be yes and no.....

Please understand that the subject is very complicated and especially VERY difficult and timeconsuming to explain. There are a lot of factors involved. In order to be able to understand you´d have to follow the process of the building. You dont tap tune at one stage, but during the whole building process........

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 7 2007 7:45:36

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: Soundboards: tap-tones, flexing,... (in reply to JBASHORUN)

Here's an example of the value of tap tones. We're building a matched set of classic guitars currently for a classical duo. These players wanted cedar topwood and fortunately I live in an area where cedar is plentiful. I picked two cedar tops that I personally sawed so I know they are adjacent cuts. This wood was cut about 25 years ago and although rather ugly is magnificent topwood from a tree that was at least 1000 years old (20 feet in diameter). By carefully controlling the top thickness and matching the bracing size exactly. We have achieved two tops that produce virtually identical tap tones. If the tap tones had not matched then I would have known that one of the tops had to be thinned or had the braces shaved a bit. Without using the tap tones one would be hoping and guessing. Now if we control the other dimensional variables carefully we should have a fairly closely matched set. Of course the backs and sides are matched as well. I do not expect these guitars to be identical since that is almost impossible to attain but the voices should be very complimentary. I will be fun to see how the two players respond when these guitars are finished. Will they both gravitate to one of the guitars or have mixed opinions?

John Shelton

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 23 2007 23:25:01

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Soundboards: tap-tones, flexing,... (in reply to JBASHORUN)

And its a good example on how one should work with all guitars. Take notes , compare and some conclusions will appear (Hopefully

)

A problem is IMHO that its very difficult to compare taptones. Both braces and soundboard thickness contribute to tap tone and sound color of the finished instrument. So you cant say that all guitars with a taptone of fx G or A will sound the same..... Simply because the two factors contribute in different ways. My experience is that thinning the soundboard lowers the taptone and makes the instrument more bassy and with les high end harmonics. shaving the braces lowers the taptone but not the bass balance of the instrument. It also has a higher impact on pulsation than thinning the top and can lead to soundboard warping.

Another experience is that going blindly for a certain taptone doesnt make all guitars sound well. I prefer to let every instrument evolve and find their balance. That I find to be the most important factor in creating a level output in production. The guitars wont all sound the same They are made of different pieces of wood with different characteristics. Some may like one others another, but they should all be good (hopefully

)

So go ahead. Start conservative and work your way slowly through the jungle.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 24 2007 9:51:42

JasonM

Posts: 2055
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Soundboards: tap-tones, flexing,... (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

Anders, did you ever get that book from Amazon that you posted above?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 24 2007 21:40:32

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Soundboards: tap-tones, flexing,... (in reply to JBASHORUN)

Hi Jason

It should be on its way. Give me a bit of time and I will tell you what I think.

Saludos

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 25 2007 7:42:18

JasonM

Posts: 2055
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Soundboards: tap-tones, flexing,... (in reply to JBASHORUN)

Poor Anders, this thread just won't die!

Here is the link from Cumpiano where he says that tap tuning is way over rated.

http://www.cumpiano.com/Home/Newsletters/Issues/newsletter10.html

Here is another link from Cumpiano explaining the general idea of tap tuning.

http://www.cumpiano.com/Home/Newsletters/Issues/newsletter%2019.htm

I just got the "Luthiers Handbook" yesterday, and practically read the whole thing while fighting off the flu.

This guy classifies guitar building into for parts, and emphasises the Tap Tuning part as being the most important in defining sound characteristics. While Cumpiano thinks it is not very important at all.

As a newb, I am of course very confused by all of this, but my intuiton tells me that trying to match the resonant frequency of soundboxes by shaving braces and using a strobe tuner would play little role in overall sound characteristics. Mabey aiming for a certain band of frequencies is the idea. Like aiming for a lower frequency range as opposed to a high, rather than going for an exact tone.

What I also fing confusing, is how Cumpiano describes "quenching" the bell-like tones of a free membrane sounboard. It seems pontless to go through this trouble, only to then sucure the sounboard to the back and start tinkering with the braces that you have already fiddles with inorder to achive some resonant frequency. I don't get it? Cumpaino seems to emphasize the former while discrediting the later.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 10 2007 17:15:04

DoctorX2k2

Posts: 211
Joined: Jun. 14 2006
From: Quebec City, Canada

RE: Soundboards: tap-tones, flexing,... (in reply to JasonM)

If I were you, I'd focus on learning how to build first, then how to tweak later. Just my 2 cents.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 12 2007 2:45:52

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Soundboards: tap-tones, flexing,... (in reply to JBASHORUN)

Jason

I´ve had a quick glance at this new taptone book and I wont recommend it. Its very much like Luthies handbook, just some more strobe tuners......

Listen:

If you can make an even soundboard and back, a square box and a correct neckangle, the guitar will play and sound........
Choose a relatively simple strut system. I will recommend for a first flamenco guitar, 5 braces, bridgepatch and 2 closing struts layed out more "normal" than Barberos plan.
Get a good spruce soundboard, German or Engelmann, doesnt matter, make it to around 2,1mm, make sure all braces are more or less same size and weight.
Back, cypress (Med, monterrey or CDN) make it around 2,4mm. Sides 2,5mm, thin neck, adjust the neckangle, so that with the fingerboard on, without frets, you can put a long straight edge on the fingerboard and you should have some 2mm between the straightedge and the soundboard where the bridge is going to be.

A bit of thinking helps but only to a certain degree.

Do this, and you´ll be prepared to build more.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 12 2007 7:38:09

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Soundboards: tap-tones, flexing,... (in reply to JBASHORUN)

quote:

http://www.cumpiano.com/Home/Newsletters/Issues/newsletter10.html

This is good article. I like it.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 12 2007 17:03:23

JasonM

Posts: 2055
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Soundboards: tap-tones, flexing,... (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

Anders, your making this sound too easy!

So, I'm guessing that you personally don't tap tune your guitars? Do you do what Cumpiano talks about-- quench the bell like tones on the soundboard?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 12 2007 20:46:45

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Soundboards: tap-tones, flexing,... (in reply to JBASHORUN)

quote:

So, I'm guessing that you personally don't tap tune your guitars? Do you do what Cumpiano talks about-- quench the bell like tones on the soundboard?

I do it my way, exactly what this article says. There are no golden "this is easy" rules" I tap, I listen, I take notes I do all I can to make my intuition as awake as possible. Thats the most important thing together with knowing when you are mentaly "there" or not. Some things you have to be in a certain mood (Zen) to do.
I´m building the so called natural way just like Cumpiano and this means I dont really believe much in all these tecnical helpers. They can be a help, but they certainly be a huge distraction as well. How many electronic strobe tuners did Stradivarius or Torres have.

And you are wrong, I´m not making this sound too easy, but I´m trying to make you build instead of complicating your own life. I wrote:

If you can make an even soundboard and back, a square box and a correct neckangle, the guitar will play and sound........
Choose a relatively simple strut system. I will recommend for a first flamenco guitar, 5 braces, bridgepatch and 2 closing struts layed out more "normal" than Barberos plan.
Get a good spruce soundboard, German or Engelmann, doesnt matter, make it to around 2,1mm, make sure all braces are more or less same size and weight.
Back, cypress (Med, monterrey or CDN) make it around 2,4mm. Sides 2,5mm, thin neck, adjust the neckangle, so that with the fingerboard on, without frets, you can put a long straight edge on the fingerboard and you should have some 2mm between the straightedge and the soundboard where the bridge is going to be.

If that sounds too easy to you, go ahead and build....

If you are not sure about your woodworking capacity, work wood instead of reading books about electronics. The old school says to build your jigs and molds before the instrument. Thats a VERY good advice. Its cheap and it´ll show you where you are. Next step, learn to sharpen tools and how to use them.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 13 2007 8:25:45