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RE: What do you think of Ottmar Liebert?
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aeolus
Posts: 765
Joined: Oct. 30 2009
From: Mier
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 RE: What do you think of Ottmar Liebert? (in reply to gj Michelob)
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quote:
First of all, Aeulus, accept my apology if I inadvertently offended you. It was not my intention at all. I –of all people- am quite at odds with the strict rules of flamenco and am admittedly rather simpleminded about the all phenomenon and culture, enjoying solely unaccompanied guitar work, not the Cante nor the dance. Hence, I am not policing the world to chase the witches flying astray of tradition. My own music leaves a lot to be desired from a strictly flamenco prospective.
Well I wasn't really offended, just bemused. For myself, I find the guitar without the Cante boring except for Amigo because of his masterful left hand and have been applying myself to his compositions. The compas seems to have something of an abstract appeal or its mastery a substitute for imagination. A kind of secret knowledge, that separates the elite from the commoner. The inner mysteries of the priestly cast, sanctified my the smoke and wine of the dark rituals yelding the ecstasy of the, dare I say it, duende.
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Date Nov. 24 2009 15:20:39
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Adam
Posts: 1156
Joined: Dec. 6 2006
From: Hamilton, ON
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RE: What do you think of Ottmar Liebert? (in reply to gj Michelob)
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His older stuff (i.e. the popular stuff, which you'll hear in restaurants) is nice, but I find myself coming more back to the newer material. I would recommend his more recent album "The Scent of Light"... really lovely album. Another recent album, "La Semana", is also quite good. "The Hours Between Night + Day" is also a fantastic work, and that's a lot closer chronologically to his "older stuff". Honestly, it's that one album - "Nouveau Flamenco" - that has all the popular hits, and the unfortunate name which riled up all the flamencos. But when the criticisms are leveled at that, they end up ignoring 20 years of other work.
Anyway, those are my recommendations. I don't expect many people here to like it - if I listened to flamenco before I listened to Ottmar (rather than the other way around) I expect it would get on my nerves too, and I don't expect to find another "Ottmar-esque" artist who I'll be able to enjoy. But, I don't like watching e-mails come into my inbox accusing me of enjoying "fast food music" so hopefully I can at least work on that 
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Date Nov. 24 2009 16:24:42
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Ricardo
Posts: 14822
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: What do you think of Ottmar Liebert? (in reply to aeolus)
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quote:
The compas seems to have something of an abstract appeal or its mastery a substitute for imagination. A kind of secret knowledge, that separates the elite from the commoner. The inner mysteries of the priestly cast, sanctified my the smoke and wine of the dark rituals yelding the ecstasy of the, dare I say it, duende.
  
Well, I know you are defending a certain artist you like that was getting slammed, but man come on. You know that for the majority of people that are true flamencos, it is their WHOLE WAY OF LIFE, not just something they do on sundays. And for some gitanos, to belittle the importance of their art, their compas or duende, like it is just hokus pokus bs, they would probably curse or kill. 
Ricardo
_____________________________
CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
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Date Nov. 25 2009 6:31:19
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Stoney
Posts: 132
Joined: Nov. 6 2009
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RE: What do you think of Ottmar Liebert? (in reply to aeolus)
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quote:
and with a lot more reverence for the style.
Quoting myself here and clarifying. Reverence meaning respect. I am not one to throw myself on the ground screaming "I'm not worthy" for any artist. Haven't been since I stopped listening to KISS in the 70's. (12 yrs. old then)
My point is that there is a fast track method of learning which I find cheats the player out of really getting any style. If you want to play blues you need to pick up some B.B. King, Muddy Waters and other originators of the style. If you just copy all of Stevie Ray Vaughn's licks you will never have the authority nor your own style. Same goes for the Paco De Lucia clones - did they pay their dues by learning the traditional stuff as well? Obviously Ottmar took and even shorter and less respectful route, he just ignored 99% of the style completely.
Any why would anyone want to play exactly what Artist X played? The saying goes that imitation is the greatest form of flattery. But they aren't really imitating the artist, they are imitating the artist's work (does that add something to the artist? I think not - just check out the numerous versions of the Toques Flamenco pieces on youtube - not really any compliment to Paco Pena IMHO - more like an embarrassment I'd say)
If you really want to pay tribute to your favorite artist, do what they did, learn it the right way, learn and adapt and innovate yourself. That's what they did and IMHO is the only true path to artistic NIRVANA. That's respect and reverence.
As far as I know, to play a variations on a standard falsetta that is commonly associated with another guitarist is looked down on in Spain. Seems fair to me.
Everyone knows Bette Midler, Frank Sinatra, Elvis Presley, Michael Jackson. Now who are the Bette Midler, Frank Sinatra, Elvis Presley, Michael Jackson imitators? No one knows - No one cares.
No one is under any obligation to follow this philosophy and if you are satisfied doing it the other way, so be it. There will always be someone to tell you you are great.
This is the philosophy I have tried to live up to in the 30 yrs since I got my first guitar. Personally I am happy with my own artistic growth although I am not a phenomenal guitarist at least I have the satisfaction of having gotten where I am by hard work, not by standing on someone else's shoulders.
In closing, I prefer determination to talent any day. Talent is often wasted.
Stoney
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Date Nov. 25 2009 7:11:36
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Adam
Posts: 1156
Joined: Dec. 6 2006
From: Hamilton, ON
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RE: What do you think of Ottmar Liebert? (in reply to aeolus)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: aeolus
quote:
Well, I hate to give myself a plug but - oh, who am I kidding, of course I don't I've played quite a bit of Ottmar old and new on my radio show. There's lot of flamenco, too, while you're waiting for Ottmar to come on It's at http://www.flamencoandarabicpop.com/ with all the old shows archived.
Thanks for the link to your program. I already downloaded Under the Rose and had posted a link to it earlier in this thread. Ottmar offers the album for free with a plea for a donation to a Iraqi relief fund so he's not all bad. I especially liked Return to Andalusia and the vocal and purchased the Iraqi's disc but sadly there were no vocals on it.
Oh yeah? I didn't see you'd posted it. Under the Rose is a cool little album - obviously a lot of folks here will dislike it (it makes strong use of melody, oh noes), but I think the idea that he offers it for free might at least run against the idea that he's some money-grubbing "fast food" artist who doesn't care about music, or something.
In the end, music is music is music. Ricardo, I get that flamenco is for many a way of life, but that doesn't mean any music which takes pieces from flamenco without paying "full respect" is garbage. One doesn't have to be either all in or all out with flamenco. It's music, and either it's good or it's not good, regardless of how flamenco it is.
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Date Nov. 25 2009 8:37:36
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Adam
Posts: 1156
Joined: Dec. 6 2006
From: Hamilton, ON
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RE: What do you think of Ottmar Liebert? (in reply to aeolus)
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Mark, the problem is viewing that as a bulería. Yeah, it vaguely uses the bulería compás, but I'm not going to be comparing it to "El Tempúl" any time soon. They aim at different things, they have different purposes. It's comparing apples and oranges.
Let's imagine an alternate universe in which Britney is actually a respectable musician and not some pop tool In that universe, then while Britney might not rock, "rock" isn't always synonymous with "good".
EDIT: Alright, my point is basically this: there exists good music which is not flamenco. Ottmar does not play flamenco. Therefore it's possible for Ottmar to play good music, and saying "oh, that's not a good bulería" or "he doesn't have a good understanding of compás" is a pretty silly argument against the quality of the music. He uses flamenco techniques and, occasionally, forms/rhythms to supplement an entirely different type of music. You can complain that that's "disrespectful", but it doesn't make the stuff bad.
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Date Nov. 25 2009 8:42:43
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