Lowering Action-Old Negra Project

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Gecko

Posts: 218
Joined: Jan. 2 2006
From: New Mexico

Lowering Action-Old Negra Project

I have done about everything I can think of to get the action a little lower on an old negra project guitar. New, lowered saddle, shaved bridge etc. I have the action down to around 4mm, but would like to get it to 3mm. At first I thought the bridge itself was made particularly high, but comparing it with newer bridges it is not.

By any measurement I can make the neck is reasonably straight with no tension on it. Strung up, under tension, with MT strings I get a little relief, about .007" using feeler gauges from about the 4th-13th fret, which to me is not excessive. This measurement was made along the top of the frets. The frets, though they have been redressed, appear to be very level as well. String height, above the top, at the bridge is 3/8", again, so I read, is not excessive, but border-line. There is no bowing in the top anywhere, particularly at the bridge. The string height at the nut, though old (the nut, is old, not the measurement) is not out of spec. I have measured it, but can't find the results right now. Regardless, I would not think that should have much of an effect on height at the 12th fret anyway, or so I'm told.

Any thoughts appreciated.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 12 2006 10:48:00

seanm

Posts: 169
Joined: Apr. 5 2005
From: Halifax, Nova Scotia

RE: Lowering Action-Old Negra Project (in reply to Gecko)

Perhaps it's the neck angle. It it's not shallow enough, then bridge and saddle adjustments will not to the trick. Just a thought.

Sean

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 12 2006 14:23:10

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Lowering Action-Old Negra Project (in reply to Gecko)

I actually had a guitar with action problems, and got a guitar tech to CUT OFF THE NECK AT THE HEEL JOINT and then glue it back on with less relief. Pretty much everyone thought it was crazy...and it was, because he had never even seen a Spanish heel before and was completely shocked by it. Anyway, I spent like $400 on the procedure, he did it and we might have succeeded in lowering the action 1 mm. Probably not the smartest thing to do to a $500 guitar but...it was my baby :)

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 12 2006 17:29:59

JBASHORUN

Posts: 1839
Joined: Jan. 23 2005

RE: Lowering Action-Old Negra Project (in reply to Gecko)

Try sawing the guitar in half down the centre. Right the way from the bottom to the headstock. then use sticky tape to stick the 2 halves back together, only this time with one half upside down, so that the half the soundhole is on the top, and half underneath. Then re-string the guitar with fishing tackle wire.

Now that I think about it, my advice isn't very helpful.

Try removing the saddle altogether, but keeping the strings in place. If you get a much lower action like this, then you know you need to lower the saddle. If not, then it is not the saddle, and maybe the bridge needs adjusting. Its also worth checking the depth of the slot in the bridge, as sometimes one slot is deeper or shallower than another (regardless of bridge height). If its not the bridge, then try a new, lower nut. If this doesn't work either, then check the neck angle. But check if the neck angle is correct before you go taking bits off that you can't put back. If it is a neck angle problem, it might need a neck re-set, but thats a job for somebody who knows how...

Jb

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 12 2006 20:50:57

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Lowering Action-Old Negra Project (in reply to JBASHORUN)

quote:

Try sawing the guitar in half down the centre. Right the way from the bottom to the headstock. then use sticky tape to stick the 2 halves back together, only this time with one half upside down, so that the half the soundhole is on the top, and half underneath. Then re-string the guitar with fishing tackle wire.

Now that I think about it, my advice isn't very helpful.

Well...not really, but you'd probably win the 2006 Turner Prize (£25,000) and be able to auction it off for a further £100,000 at Sotheby's.

Not bad for an evening's work...

cheers

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 12 2006 21:15:37

Guest

RE: Lowering Action-Old Negra Project (in reply to Gecko)

Drill the tie block for 12 holes. Then, when you tie the string, you lose the loop which lifts the striing and loses the angle. Now you can lower the bone and still have angle (30 degrees is fine)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 12 2006 21:34:35

Gecko

Posts: 218
Joined: Jan. 2 2006
From: New Mexico

RE: Lowering Action-Old Negra Project (in reply to Gecko)

JBASHOURN:

Do I have to use a saw, or will an axe work? Won't tape harm the finish? What kind of tape should I use? Which half of the guitar should go back together upside down, bass or treble? I'm really new at this.

Sean:

Been there done that already with the saddle and the 12-hole tie block.

Guitar is not worth a neck reset, particularly one involving a Spanish block.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 12 2006 22:14:54

pablo requena

Posts: 18
Joined: Apr. 10 2006
From: From Malaga, Spain. Based in Sussex ,England.

RE: Lowering Action-Old Negra Project (in reply to Gecko)

Hi Gecko
You don't always have to replace the neck in a guitar to change the neck angle.
Tell me: how thick is the ebony in the finguerboard at the 1st and at 18 fret?
you might be able to re-fret the fingerboard
Pablo

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 13 2006 7:57:55

Gecko

Posts: 218
Joined: Jan. 2 2006
From: New Mexico

RE: Lowering Action-Old Negra Project (in reply to pablo requena)

quote:

ORIGINAL: pablo requena

Hi Gecko
You don't always have to replace the neck in a guitar to change the neck angle.
Tell me: how thick is the ebony in the finguerboard at the 1st and at 18 fret?
you might be able to re-fret the fingerboard
Pablo

The fingerboard, which I believe is rosewood, has a fairly uniform thickness from frets 1-18. It is approximately 17/64", or just a little over 1/4" (say about 6.5mm) thick. I'm very interested in your idea, as I was going to do a re-fret later anyway. But I'm having a hard time visualizing how re-fretting can affect neck angle.

I have read that re-fretting with tight fitting frets can reduce neck relief, but that's appearently not the problem with this old guitar.

Thanks.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 13 2006 10:32:16

seanm

Posts: 169
Joined: Apr. 5 2005
From: Halifax, Nova Scotia

RE: Lowering Action-Old Negra Project (in reply to Gecko)

I changed the neck relief on my current guitar by pulling the frets, mounting a piece of sandpaper on the bottom of a long (12"++ long) stanley joiner plane (with the blade removed) and sanding the neck to a different slope. As I brought the thickness down, I made sure to recut the fret slots as needed so that I didn't sand them away completely and have to re-calculate their position and make new parallel cuts on an tapered fingerboard. I used the edge of a 24" steel ruler to check my progess by looking side-on down the treble, bass and both diagonals with the ruler on the finger board and extending toward the bridge. Then I refretted and was good to go. Of course, this is only worth doing if you are certain the the neck angle is the issue.

Sean

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 13 2006 13:29:49

JBASHORUN

Posts: 1839
Joined: Jan. 23 2005

RE: Lowering Action-Old Negra Project (in reply to Gecko)

quote:

Do I have to use a saw, or will an axe work? Won't tape harm the finish? What kind of tape should I use? Which half of the guitar should go back together upside down, bass or treble? I'm really new at this.

Gecko, you really are new to this, aren't you? An axe will work fine, but just make sure its a left-handed one, and as blunt as possible. I'd go for the foil-backed backed gaffer-tape, as the reflective surface helps to reflect the sound vibrations, which is great for tone. But yes, some luthiers do claim that tape might harm the finish. So as an alternative, try a hammer and nails instead... but due to the delicate nature of guitars, I would use a glass hammer and polystyrene nails. These are specialist tools, so you'll have to ask your local D.I.Y/hardware store to order them in for you specially. Flamenco guitars are supposed to be more treble-orientated, so logic dictates that the bass side goes underneath, leaving the treble side of the soundhole exposed to produce more noise.

Feel free to ask more questions if you get stuck, as I know its not easy.

Good luck, and don't forget to order those tools!!!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 13 2006 14:13:52

pablo requena

Posts: 18
Joined: Apr. 10 2006
From: From Malaga, Spain. Based in Sussex ,England.

RE: Lowering Action-Old Negra Project (in reply to Gecko)

Hi Gecko
To change the angle of the neck you can pull the frets, plane the fingerboard to get the angle that you want and then fit new frets.
This is not a simple job, but if you are brave enough to try I will tell you all the details.
Pablo

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 13 2006 20:25:38

Gecko

Posts: 218
Joined: Jan. 2 2006
From: New Mexico

RE: Lowering Action-Old Negra Project (in reply to JBASHORUN)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JBASHORUN

Gecko, you really are new to this, aren't you? An axe will work fine, but just make sure its a left-handed one, and as blunt as possible. I'd go for the foil-backed backed gaffer-tape, as the reflective surface helps to reflect the sound vibrations, which is great for tone. But yes, some luthiers do claim that tape might harm the finish. So as an alternative, try a hammer and nails instead... but due to the delicate nature of guitars, I would use a glass hammer and polystyrene nails. These are specialist tools, so you'll have to ask your local D.I.Y/hardware store to order them in for you specially. Flamenco guitars are supposed to be more treble-orientated, so logic dictates that the bass side goes underneath, leaving the treble side of the soundhole exposed to produce more noise.

Feel free to ask more questions if you get stuck, as I know its not easy.

Good luck, and don't forget to order those tools!!!

Jb

I love you guys. Its so nice to come to a discussion group where some members actually have a sense of humor and don't take themselves so seriously!!!!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 13 2006 20:44:51

Gecko

Posts: 218
Joined: Jan. 2 2006
From: New Mexico

RE: Lowering Action-Old Negra Project (in reply to pablo requena)

quote:

ORIGINAL: pablo requena

This is not a simple job, but if you are brave enough to try I will tell you all the details.
Pablo

Yes, I'm brave enough. The only reason I bought this guitar was to learn a little "lutherie" and repair work.

Please give me all the grusome details. If you want to send them by e-mail let me know and I will PM you with my e-mail address. I already know and understand the details of a normal re-fret job and know some sanding is normally done anyway.

Again we are are appearently dealing with a neck angle issue and not a neck relief issue. Two different things as I understand it!

Thanks, and thank you too Seanm.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 13 2006 21:02:21

Hugh

Posts: 130
Joined: Jul. 27 2006

RE: Lowering Action-Old Negra Project (in reply to Gecko)

Hey you guys gave me the inspiration to adjust the action on my Yamama classical.
I did a bit or cutting and filing on the bridge, and hey presto I got lucky first time.
The action is brilliant now. Fast fingerwork here I come. Hmm, well maybe!
All I got to do now is learn to play flamenco or is it flamingo?
That guy's got me all confused now

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 4 2006 15:44:39

TANúñez

Posts: 2559
Joined: Jul. 10 2003
From: TEXAS

RE: Lowering Action-Old Negra Project (in reply to Hugh)

Hugh,

Do you mean saddle or did you actually work on the bridge? Since this was a classical and if you indeed meant the saddle, I would have left the saddle alone and got an extra saddle to lower for flamenco. Your classical may not sound the same anymore for your classical pieces.

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Tom Núñez
www.instagram.com/tanunezguitars

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 4 2006 16:18:40

Hugh

Posts: 130
Joined: Jul. 27 2006

RE: Lowering Action-Old Negra Project (in reply to Gecko)

Hi TANunez.
I buffed a bit off the bottom of the saddle and filed small notches on the bridge to allow the strings to pass through them. It did'nt need much change to the instrument and has'nt affected the sound in any way, nor indeed the looks of the guitar. It has however made a fantastic difference to the action.
Like I said, I got lucky the first time and did'nt have to keep working on it to get the right height.
I've been playing it all day and it sounds just the same, and no buzzes either.
I was now concidering a heavier set of strings for more volume and tone. I tried that before but the weight of the strings pulled the action up too high for my liking.
What do you think? or do flamenco players use light guage?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 4 2006 18:02:15

TANúñez

Posts: 2559
Joined: Jul. 10 2003
From: TEXAS

RE: Lowering Action-Old Negra Project (in reply to Hugh)

Ok I see what you mean. As long as your happy with it, that's all that matters right?

I think most flamenco players use medium and heavy guage strings. I like lights but only on longer scale guitars as it makes them feel like mediums. To me, lights on a 650 feel too....well...light. For the most part, I stick to medium. It's a personal preference for everyone.

_____________________________

Tom Núñez
www.instagram.com/tanunezguitars

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 4 2006 18:52:58

Hugh

Posts: 130
Joined: Jul. 27 2006

RE: Lowering Action-Old Negra Project (in reply to Gecko)

Thanks for your opinion and information once again.
This is a great site, in fact the best I've seen for other musicians wanting to help with people's queries.

You mentioned me possibly losing the classical sound. I find that funny now. After listening to some of the uploads of you guys playing, I find I love the sound of the flamenco guitar. I never ever realised that it had such quality and such an original sound to it. How could I have missed out on this in all my years of playing.
Concidering I have only been at it for a couple of weeks, I am well hooked on flamenco as far as I can see.
Dont know what it is, but it seems to make me want to put more work into playing the instrument than I would doing classical.
I hope this trend continues.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 4 2006 21:58:06

TANúñez

Posts: 2559
Joined: Jul. 10 2003
From: TEXAS

RE: Lowering Action-Old Negra Project (in reply to Hugh)

Flamenco is challenging. Not saying classical isn't. It could just be that you are being introduced to new and different techniqes not used in classical.

For me personally, flamenco hits me right in the heart. I feel many emotions. Each one different depending on what palo I'm playing. Classical just doesn't move me in this way. Like may of us here, I started out on the electric. I stuck to blues because that touched me. When I switched to nylon strings I started with classical and I felt numb.

Then by accident I came across an old clip of Diego del Gastor playing and that was it. I knew right then that's the style of music I wanted to learn/play. Through him I started listen to more and more stuff by different artists. When I first heard Paco de Lucia, my jaw dropped and I wanted to quit because I knew I would never achieve such greatness but at the same time, his stuff inspired me to continue at least for my own enjoyment.

_____________________________

Tom Núñez
www.instagram.com/tanunezguitars

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 4 2006 22:53:39