RE: Picado

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RE: Picado

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DavidT

Posts: 181
Joined: Mar. 17 2005
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: Picado (in reply to Ricardo)

Ricardo,

How does this exercise apply to where the i-m are not on the same string?

Thank
Dave

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 23 2005 13:43:26

Guest

RE: Picado (in reply to Ricardo)

Ricardo: thank you very much.

I've seen the awesome stuff you do on that video with Todd.
Yes I did....

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 23 2005 22:47:52

koella

Posts: 2194
Joined: Sep. 10 2005
From: holland

RE: Picado (in reply to Guest)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Guest

Ricardo: thank you very much.

I've seen the awesome stuff you do on that video with Todd.
Yes I did....

Oops forgot to login. Guest, that's me

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 23 2005 22:50:12

Ricardo

Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Picado (in reply to DavidT)

Not to start an arguement, cause we had that in the archives already. I don't feel like digging through to find it. Anyway my OPINION on the knuckle movement is to do what is comfortable. The speed will have more to do with economic motion (preparing your strokes) than which part of your finger moves. Anyway, I feel that the "middle knuckle movement" is an optical illusion based on video footage of guys like PDL. If you watch Rito y Geografia or even Concerto de Aranjuez, there are some side angle views that clearly show Paco moving i-m from the main big joint that connects the finger to the hand. The thing is he and others that uses this technique, bend the middle joint so the finger tips line up better length wise, making string crossing easier. From the front view, the economic motions makes it look like there is little or no movement, or it is all from the middle joint. But the power really comes from the big joint.

There seems to be some confusion of terms in this thread too. I think of scale, arpeggio, tremolo as musical terms, whereas Picado, pulgar, tirando etc are technique terms. You can play a scale with picado, but also you can play an arpeggio with picado. A scale like in solea discussed is usually played with "tirando and ligado", but a SCALE is not a PICADO. Apoyando refers to restroke, but picado is a more forcefull, "driving" the finger into the string. I very rarely see tremolo done all apoyando (I want to say never). Usually it is apoyando bass notes (pulgar) and tirando fingers.

Ricardo

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 24 2005 16:52:13

Ricardo

Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Picado (in reply to DavidT)

quote:

Ricardo,

How does this exercise apply to where the i-m are not on the same string?

Thank
Dave

Well of course you can't achieve the muscial effect of RH staccato by doing string crossings. The point of doing staccato is to economize the motion of the i-m fingers and learn how to prepare strokes early (planting). So practice this at first on only the single open string (a lot of students accidentally do staccato with the left hand on fretted notes, defeating the purpose of the excercise). Once you have your tempo, when you cross strings you will hopefully still be preparing early and with economic motion, even though you don't hear the muting effect.

Ricardo

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 24 2005 16:58:41

Guest

RE: Picado (in reply to DavidT)

Ricardo: Thank you. I have this old video of PDL playing solo (his 1976 album, with the "almoraima"bulerias). And indeed it shows his upperjoints moving all the time when seen from the right angle.

I've been through all that Graf-Martinez advise

Florian: I'm practising! Seems like I've overdone it a little. This afternoon there was a total loss of strengh. I know I should practise slowly, but after three days there was this little devil: "you can do faster! Faster!"
Well tomorrow is another day. Nomore bodybuilding. More room for meditation.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 24 2005 18:58:46

koella

Posts: 2194
Joined: Sep. 10 2005
From: holland

RE: Picado (in reply to DavidT)

Sorry forgot to login again..
Me am guest.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 24 2005 19:01:44

Jon Boyes

Posts: 1377
Joined: Jul. 10 2003

RE: Picado (in reply to Guest)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Guest
Ricardo: Thank you. I have this old video of PDL playing solo (his 1976 album, with the "almoraima"bulerias). And indeed it shows his upperjoints moving all the time when seen from the right angle.

...also not wishing to have the same debate all over again, but a quick observation:
If the upper joints did not move (extend) at all, the fingers would crash into the string they just plucked on their return, they have to move.

But watch it in slow motion and ask yourself whether the large joint movement you see in Paco's picado is when the finger lifts to clear the string on its return, preparing for the next stroke, with the actual plucking action actually coming from the middle joint. At playing speed it would be very difficult to determine what is happening.

Apart from this point (which is slightly academic), I agree with all Ricardo's excellent advice above, especially the stuff about finding what works well for you. There is huge variation out there in falemnco technique and just get hold of a video of Vicente to see lots of things you supposedly shouldn't do.

Remember, a method book is just that - A method. Think of it as a starting point.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 27 2005 9:37:41

hamia

Posts: 403
Joined: Jun. 25 2004

RE: Picado (in reply to Guest)

By looking at videos of players you'll have a hard job quantifying the contribution of middle joint and knuckle joint. As Jon points out the knuckle joint must move to enable the finger to restrike the string. And I know this from my own experience - I can pluck the strings with the power coming from just the knuckle joint or "just" the middle joint (using the knuckle of course to reposition the finger after the stroke) and I doubt any one could tell the difference. I don't think Graf-Martinez is wrong with his advice. He may however be overstating the case to claim that all movement and power should come exclusively from the middle joint. I now use the flat hand method and when I play slowish picado I find it very natural and comfortable to use the middle joint. For faster picado I'm not so sure - I can vary to some extent the relative contribution of knuckle and middle joint. To be honest I find it easier at the moment if the knuckle joint provides much of the power. More practice might change thiis.

I've been playing a couple of years (after a 20 year break!) and I'm pleased with the way my picado is improving . Three things have helped :

1) Using the flat hand method. It's a killer to get used to but give it time (1 year).
2) Ricardo's advice about RH staccato is excellent. I practice this a lot.
3) Speed bursts. I believe that these are truly the key to developing fast picado. They should never be uncontrolled. If you can't play 3 notes evenly (at some desired tempo) then forget about a long picado run! Using just the RH play 2 notes fast as possible - then add more notes when ready. And finally add string crossing and the left hand for a complete workout.

In my case I needed to practice about 1 hour/day on picado alone for about 1 year to see significant improvement. So I put away all the PdL tabs and got down to basics!

And a final point, if you use the flat hand method your basic RH “shape” should not change regardless of whether you play on the 1st or 6th string. When playing a descending run from treble to bass strings your upper arm should pull up your RH to preserve the relative angles of fingers to strings. This means that your RH thumb will probably lose contact with the 6th string when the fingers are playing the 4th string. The thumb should then move to rest on the soundboard somewhere above the 6th string. It feels strange at first but becomes more natural over time.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 27 2005 14:43:31

Ricardo

Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Picado (in reply to DavidT)

http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=14923&p=3&tmode=1&smode=1

There is a new vid clip of Paco playing rondena and you can see him doing picado pretty clearly, alternating fingers and driving into the string with the whole finger, not just the middle joint. The video download is off to the left side of the article, for real player.

http://www.flamenco-world.com/magazine/about/paco_de_lucia_ventas/paco23092005.htm

Ricardo

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 27 2005 18:16:57

koella

Posts: 2194
Joined: Sep. 10 2005
From: holland

RE: Picado (in reply to DavidT)

Hamia: Thank you very much. I'll be patient!
Ricardo: I will have a look.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 27 2005 20:58:01

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Picado (in reply to koella)

Hey amigo, how is it going ? theres alot of good advice here for you.

noticed any difference from doing picado with M and A ?

After doing M A Picado for about 30 minutes as a test go to I M , your hand should feel nice and balanced. U wont notice any difference in the speed this fast but , u will notice difference on the feel.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 28 2005 7:21:32

Guest

RE: Picado (in reply to Ricardo)

NIce clip. But I don't think it's possible to tell from it whether he exclusively uses knuckle movement or if there is some contribution from the middle joint. Would be good if we could ask Paco about this. Doubtless he hates people asking about his technique!

He seems to be playing well as he approaches 60. I'm glad I didn't go to that concert though - I get distracted when idiots cheer and hoot at some fancy fingerwork or start clapping well before the end of a piece. Why on earth do they do that ...

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 28 2005 11:59:53

koella

Posts: 2194
Joined: Sep. 10 2005
From: holland

RE: Picado (in reply to Florian)

Nice of you to call me amigo already!
My picado sounds staccato and thus more flamenco already. Practising A-M and I-A makes my righthand indeed feel much more balanced. So some small miracles already have happened.

Pushing the strings instead of doing a normal reststroke makes the fingers bounce. It's like you don't have to use any force to get a strong ,stabil picado. It's just looking at my fingers and wonder how the hell they do that! Does this make any sense to you?I mean, am I on the right track?

I added also AMI AIM etc. So now I'm also trying to play triads (3 tones per string) with AMI. Nice for ending a buleria compas. Discovered that also along the way!
Every day there's something new. It's like an adventure. Each day I'm going to bed wondering what will be next. And all you have to do is practise and follow the (precious) advices.

Thank you, thank you, thank you!!!!!

P.s. Speed didn't increase, but at least it already sounds faster

And my shoulder and back do not contribute in the action anymore.
Tell me how to pay you back

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 28 2005 20:24:23

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Picado (in reply to koella)

quote:

Pushing the strings instead of doing a normal reststroke makes the fingers bounce. It's like you don't have to use any force to get a strong ,stabil picado. It's just looking at my fingers and wonder how the hell they do that! Does this make any sense to you?I mean, am I on the right track?

Is hard to say without seeing it, but it sounds right, the strings throws your finghers back ready for the next string stroke, the better the action of the guitar the faster it throws your fingher back the faster you stroke again creating the fast picado.. this is just the mechanics of it.

Simpler way of explaining it, Finger pushes string in, string bends then pushes your fingher back if your finger is relaxed in the right places , you are able to take advantage of this because it makes the time between your strokes shorter..

know what i am saying ?

Speed will come theres no shortcuts but you have a better chance of getting there with the right technique.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 28 2005 21:11:14

Hugh

Posts: 130
Joined: Jul. 27 2006

RE: Picado (in reply to koella)

Hi. Just joined here. I have played for most of my life doing different styles in my time.
My last playing style was classical guitar. I had to stop over the last year due to a neck problem causing arm weakness and immobility.
However, A few weeks ago while experimenting with my classical I found that I can play fairly comfortably by holding the guitar in the flamenco position.
So, I've been gradually learning Flamenco style, and hope that I can obtain some kind of playing ability in this way. I have to say, I've really missed out here, why did I not find this exciting way of playing before? It's early days yet but if I can get by without stirring up this neck problem I'll be more than happy to get my hand back into playing again.
I just found this site the other day, and it looks great for information that I can well use in the future. So if I ask you some seemingly silly questions, maybe you will understand.
My guitar is a fairly modest Yamama classical GG 150 CCA model. Its got a lovely sound for its price range, and plays really well action-wise.
I know its no Flamenco instrument, but I got to start somewhere.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 27 2006 20:13:56

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Picado (in reply to DavidT)

Right on, have fun and welcome aboard.

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Arizona Wedding Music Guitar

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 27 2006 21:31:54

Hugh

Posts: 130
Joined: Jul. 27 2006

RE: Picado (in reply to DavidT)

Thanks Miguel I'm sure I will.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 28 2006 7:49:37

edgar884

Posts: 1975
Joined: Nov. 16 2005

RE: Picado (in reply to koella)

I had problems with that as well, I think what helped me was I started forcing my right hand to turn more to the right. It seems to pull the hand in closer and gives you more of a Picado postition.

I also think it helps to learn 4 note Picado first, see my chromatic exercise upload http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=41173&p=1&tmode=1&smode=1

Then try 3 note per string Picado with like an F major scale.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------3---5----6-----------------------
---------------------------------------------------------------3---5----6-------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------2----3----5-----------------------------------------------------
------------------------------2---3----5-----------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------1---3---5------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---1--3---5-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

this is a great scale for speed development.

You can also do this scale with legato, hitting each string only once and hammering on the next two notes.

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May we find God through Flamenco instead of Angels and Demons

www.gabrieledgar.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 28 2006 12:55:29

Hugh

Posts: 130
Joined: Jul. 27 2006

RE: Picado (in reply to DavidT)

As I already stated in a previous post, I am only just started in the flamenco world.
I have this book by Juan Martin which I am learning off.
My question is. Why do flamenco players feel the need to use a cejilla or capo to me, when as I see it, you want as much tone and depth out of the instrument as possible?
Most of the examples in the book I have tell you to put the cejilla on the second fret.
This I find makes the sound very thin and toneless.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 30 2006 14:55:26

Escribano

Posts: 6415
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: Picado (in reply to Hugh)

The cejilla changes the tuning often to accompany singers and other instruments, or the piece was written down that way.

If it is written with a cejilla on the second fret and the guitar is in tune, then your strings are one tone above open tuning (and of course, the tabbed fingering).

So E becomes F# - apologies if you already knew this

Depending on the guitar, I like the cejilla on the first or second fret as it sounds muy flamenco, however you should do your exercises without it. That is what teachers tell me so that is what I do.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 30 2006 15:11:49

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Picado (in reply to Hugh)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hugh

Why do flamenco players feel the need to use a cejilla or capo to me, when as I see it, you want as much tone and depth out of the instrument as possible?

Traditionally, flamenco guitars needed to cut through layers of sound such as dancing and singing and clapping, so the bright (emphasizing the higher partials, is I believe how it is called) nature of the flamenco guitar itself, and the capo would emphasize it, would be desired. Of course, half of this is that with a capo you can change the key to accomodate each singer's preference without changing the LH fingerings.

With the advent of amplification and a more prominent role of the guitar in flamenco, you now have negras--richer sounding guitars--coming to the forefront.

You don't have to use the capo if you don't want, but it makes me wonder... if you don't like the sound of the capo, maybe you don't like flamenco? It's a pretty integral part of hte sound. Classical guitarists prize a deep, rich tone.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 30 2006 15:16:34

Hugh

Posts: 130
Joined: Jul. 27 2006

RE: Picado (in reply to DavidT)

Thanks Escribano for the info.
Yes I can understand that theory, I just wondered about it. I like to get as much depth and tone out of the instrument as possible. It must be with me doing quite a bit of classical pieces in the past. It does sound totally different I have to say. Whether I eventually find I think its better remains to be seen.
But I always practice on the normal pitch anyway.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 30 2006 15:21:51

Escribano

Posts: 6415
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: Picado (in reply to Hugh)

quote:

It must be with me doing quite a bit of classical pieces in the past. It does sound totally different I have to say. Whether I eventually find I think its better remains to be seen.

Now this is a little controversial in forum circles

So let's say that, historically (and still for me) the flamenco guitar has been primarily an accompanying instrument to a singer and/or dancers - it is the rhythm section if you like. So it needs to cut through but not sustain too long. Like a snare as opposed to timpani.

Classical guitar is a wholly different approach and one with which I am not acquainted.

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Foro Flamenco founder and Admin

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 30 2006 15:30:21

Doitsujin

Posts: 5078
Joined: Apr. 10 2005

RE: Picado (in reply to DavidT)

And playing with a capo in the second or third fret makes all technics a lot easyer. So you can play hard pieces more easy than al aire.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 30 2006 16:19:09

duende

Posts: 3053
Joined: Dec. 15 2003
From: Sweden

RE: Picado (in reply to Hugh)

quote:

This I find makes the sound very thin and toneless.

you find that a "good" flamenco tone is... very thin and toneless.

Sorry it was just funny to me. Im not trying to teas you.

_____________________________

This is hard stuff!
Don't give up...
And don't make it a race.
Enjoy the ray of sunshine that comes with every new step in knowledge.

RON

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 30 2006 16:19:10

Hugh

Posts: 130
Joined: Jul. 27 2006

RE: Picado (in reply to DavidT)

I thank you for all your replies. It has been most helpful.
Duende. It may amuse you that I think it sounds thin, but I have been playing since I was thirteen, which is over forty years playing guitar, and the only time I tried a capo was today in this way. I have always looked for the deepest sound out of the instrument and quality of sound.
However, the more I try it the more I can appreciate the reason for it.
My question was only to ask the reason why the use of the cejilla, not to ridicule it.
I will stick with it and see how I get on. I really love what I have heard so far.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 30 2006 21:15:10

duende

Posts: 3053
Joined: Dec. 15 2003
From: Sweden

RE: Picado (in reply to DavidT)

the capo came from playing for singing.
Also since the keys of flamenco depend on open strings it was the best way.
The sound from useing capo has become THE flamenco sound that is why its in use.

Also when playing difficult and fast stuff like bulerias and so on for hours at a dance school or similar it will make things easyer for your Left hand.
or you might get cramps or tense up.

In todays moder playing there are several guitarists that doens use capo in all their pieces

Also when it comes to tone you have to realise that classical guitar and flamenco is not the same. it´s only played on a similar instrument but thats it.

it´s like compareing Jazz a la Wes Montgomery with Joe Satriani or Ac/DC

_____________________________

This is hard stuff!
Don't give up...
And don't make it a race.
Enjoy the ray of sunshine that comes with every new step in knowledge.

RON

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 30 2006 22:07:55

JasonM

Posts: 2055
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Picado (in reply to DavidT)

Hey Hugh,

Glad you discovered flamenco! Its funny how you can play guitar for so long and not even think of flamenco as a genre of guitar. Most flamenco guitarist (in America at least) seem to discover flamenco through classical guitar. I certainly did.

A lot has been said already about the capo. I think of using a capo as a trade off between loosing the richness of tone and gaining percussiveness to the guitar due to lowered string height and increased tension. If you don't like the capo, don't use it. There are no rules.

A couple pieces of advice.
You said you were using a Yamaha classical? I would look into getting a Yamaha cg171sf. A cheap flamenco blanca that is a great deal. I own one, and put a bone saddle in it instead of the plastic one. Not bad for 300 bucks as you said with your yamaha classical. It will have a lot less depth than your classical, being a flamenco blanca, but it will help you acheive a more flamenco sound as you learn rasgueado's and right hand technique.

I would also look into the Graf Martinez method books. I hear they are very good at explaing right hand techniques. I started with Jaun Martin's videos, and he explained very little about right hand technique. He put me though two years of of frustration.

Anyway, I hope you can stick with it. There is a LOT of depth to flamenco guitar that many genres don't have.

Jason

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 31 2006 1:49:50

duende

Posts: 3053
Joined: Dec. 15 2003
From: Sweden

RE: Picado (in reply to Hugh)

Welcome to the foro by the way.

Enjoy your stay

_____________________________

This is hard stuff!
Don't give up...
And don't make it a race.
Enjoy the ray of sunshine that comes with every new step in knowledge.

RON

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 31 2006 5:21:16