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RE: Scale length with zero fret (in reply to RobF)
quote:
ORIGINAL: RobF
I don't have to study. I know my sh*t. But I'm always open to learning. I don't consider myself to be anything but what I am. I don't know why people in this business think they're so special, there's thousands of us and most do really good work. I'm just asking for clarity.
Thanks for explaining your communication difficulties. It makes a difference and I apologize if I was harsh. But I don't apologize for demanding clarity in the Lutherie section. It's up to you to learn from guys like me, to be honest, at least when it comes to that. As far as restoration work goes, I've already told you I've enjoyed your posts. I see restoration, guitar making, and repair as three distinct disciplines and I don't claim to have expertise in restoration. But I'm going to suggest you consider your words because some of the stuff you're posting is simply incorrect.
Any rate, I don't hold grudges. I'm upset with myself more than anything for the way I spoke but I'm not yet ready to take back my words.
*edit* OK, I see you've modified your reply to remove the 'go study' remark. I appreciate that.
Look, there's room here for everyone and I'm not in the business of making enemies. I'm Canadian and I think we're all walking around with an undercurrent of low level rage these days due to the unrelenting existential threats we've been facing from south of our border. I'll try to do better. Just show a bit of respect. I really do know my stuff, and I don't really like tooting my own horn. I'd rather just excuse myself from the proceedings before it comes to that. It's not how I want to live my life.
He made a keyboard mistake, he knows about compensation. He’s from Livahpuul cut him some slack, Canuck. 😆
RE: Scale length with zero fret (in reply to Firefrets)
RobF, the jerk, said:
"I've enjoyed your restoration threads but it's pretty clear to me you aren't a guitar maker and, based on what I've been reading here, I wouldn't trust you with any serious project. Sorry, but you come across way too arrogant for your own good. Seems to be a disease that inflicts people in this business, so indulge me if I'm coming across the same way."
Dear Firefrets,
This, in particular, is something I said that I am not proud of. It was cruel and it was unnecessary. Please accept my sincerest apologies for that. I'm not going to make excuses. I wish I hadn't said it, and I wish I could take it back. It reflects upon me, not you.
RE: Scale length with zero fret (in reply to estebanana)
quote:
You mean it’s something like a 634 or 635 with 2 to 3 mm’s compensation?
Yes! If that.
I should have said 'plus compensation' not plus 7mm compensation (I've corrected my edit). Holy Moly, I get a post wrong and Rob says he wouldn't trust me with a serious project? Thank God I trust myself.
I call them all 630's so was talking loosely. I even said so in the post - Rob just didn't follow what I thought I was explaining. Clearly I don't explain myself well, but I try to get it right in the workshop.
I'm taking guitars apart and putting them back together every day, but Rob thinks I'm not up to it, as I can't get what's in my head, out on a forum on a given day.
RE: Scale length with zero fret (in reply to RobF)
quote:
Ramzi, everything I've told you, not just on this thread but everywhere else, if it's related to guitar making you can take it to the bank. If you don't want to believe me, that's fine too. It's not my problem.
Brother, I don't know anything about this stuff - compensation, scale length with zero fret, etc. I came here so I can figure out why this guitar feels much easier on my left hand. Chords that are usually big stretches for me are much easier to play on this guitar. I now understand, thanks to everyone on here, that this is a shorter scale length than the typical 650 mm instruments I play.
I think I understand why things got heated here. It's the curse of the professor. He poisoned me with the double cutaway Simplicio and that spilled unto y'all. I'm going to sell it. Begone, demon!
Love you all, from Canada to New York to the UK and Japan.
RE: Scale length with zero fret (in reply to Firefrets)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Firefrets
One day a customer will bring your guitar in for repair, and I'm going to tell them it's uneconomical.
Someday a poor sod is going to bring in one of your brilliantly restored guitars and say “I play at the train station far down the platform for tips & change and this is all I can afford.”
I’ll make him tea and biscuits because I actually like musicians 😂
Posts: 3509
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
RE: Scale length with zero fret (in reply to Arash)
In days of yore, two luthiers would have settled their differences by entering a tavern with the request: "Barkeep, swords for two and brandy for one."
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
RE: Scale length with zero fret (in reply to estebanana)
There's no fighting here. If there was, then both of them would run for the hills.
Luthiery is martial arts.
A builder is a boxer. A repairer is an MMA fighter.
One specializes in one discipline and over time becomes a master at it. The other has to embrace 'every' discipline, and so has a much steeper learning curve.
Put them in a boxing ring and the builder is a strong favourite, but put them in an Octagon, and see how they get on.
Repairer - "Hi builder, what are you doing today?" Builder - "Same thing I did yesterday, only today it's going to be better".
Posts: 16045
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Scale length with zero fret (in reply to Firefrets)
quote:
A measurement of 637mm is not a 637mm scale length, but a 630 'something' mm scale plus compensation. (Edited to cause less confusion)
It is only amusing because 3.5 mm compensation on a Hauser 2 is already extreme end of the spectrum and 7mm literal would be hilarious. But you need to remove the idea from your mind that a scale MUST INCLUDE some compensation, even minimal, but because I own guitars that are EXACT 50/50 from 12th fret out. Yes they play sharp up high to idiots that have no ears and can't intonate, but I forgive them as babies they grew up with compensated training wheel guitars, and now a days Solera is ruining vintage pieces by moving the frets (since the bridge is at exact scale with no compensation). Guitar builders need to realize that when a singer sings a target A note, they actually go for the Bb and drop it and raise it like a trill between the two, otherwise they sound FLAT relative the the harmony whatever it is played on (piano, guitar, orchestra, doesn't matter). I know that sounds weird but trust me, it is a thing. As a player, the Hauser has to played in counter compensation for the compensation, it is outrageous to me. I get the reason, so many inaccurate players with frets come in on a note and push it sharp so the Luthiers deliberately compensate for that laziness. The ability to randomly push a note off tune is not universal (hence more or less compensation to taste), and it is why guitar players need to tune ONLY OPEN STRINGS OR ELSE!!!! But it is a crusade I don't intend to win in general. I did make a video that I thought was like only a few people did not know about but I have gotten tons of comments about minds being blown by it after they watched it then did personal experimentation.
RE: Scale length with zero fret (in reply to Ricardo)
Let's move on from the 7mm thing, as if folk haven't realised I'm not stupid yet then that's on them. That old guitar I showed you was set back 8mm, drilled, and pined. It needed to come forward by 7mm. That would have left it at 637. Same numbers, nothing more.
Lots of things effect intonation.
I've a left handed 630 guitar, and her compensation is 3.5mm treble and almost 5mm bass, and she's spot on.
She has a slightly higher neck angle, which I see from time to time. Flamenco action but classical bridge.
RE: Scale length with zero fret (in reply to Firefrets)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Firefrets
Let's move on from the 7mm thing, as if folk haven't realised I'm not stupid yet then that's on them. That old guitar I showed you was set back 8mm, drilled, and pined. It needed to come forward by 7mm. That would have left it at 637. Same numbers, nothing more.
Lots of things effect intonation.
I've a left handed 630 guitar, and her compensation is 3.5mm treble and almost 5mm bass, and she's spot on.
She has a slightly higher neck angle, which I see from time to time. Flamenco action but classical bridge.
Maybe neck angle effects intonation.
I knew your 7mm compensation was as a typo. I’ve done it too and been jumped on for it, while everyone knew it was a mistake. Your mixed martial arts metaphor MMM is however retarded. lol 😆
See builders are repairers, just in reverse. We reverse engineer repair work when we build.
Don’t keep starting the up or the pies you want at might be crow.
RE: Scale length with zero fret (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ricardo
quote:
A measurement of 637mm is not a 637mm scale length, but a 630 'something' mm scale plus compensation. (Edited to cause less confusion)
It is only amusing because 3.5 mm compensation on a Hauser 2 is already extreme end of the spectrum and 7mm literal would be hilarious. But you need to remove the idea from your mind that a scale MUST INCLUDE some compensation, even minimal, but because I own guitars that are EXACT 50/50 from 12th fret out. Yes they play sharp up high to idiots that have no ears and can't intonate, but I forgive them as babies they grew up with compensated training wheel guitars, and now a days Solera is ruining vintage pieces by moving the frets (since the bridge is at exact scale with no compensation). Guitar builders need to realize that when a singer sings a target A note, they actually go for the Bb and drop it and raise it like a trill between the two, otherwise they sound FLAT relative the the harmony whatever it is played on (piano, guitar, orchestra, doesn't matter). I know that sounds weird but trust me, it is a thing. As a player, the Hauser has to played in counter compensation for the compensation, it is outrageous to me. I get the reason, so many inaccurate players with frets come in on a note and push it sharp so the Luthiers deliberately compensate for that laziness. The ability to randomly push a note off tune is not universal (hence more or less compensation to taste), and it is why guitar players need to tune ONLY OPEN STRINGS OR ELSE!!!! But it is a crusade I don't intend to win in general. I did make a video that I thought was like only a few people did not know about but I have gotten tons of comments about minds being blown by it after they watched it then did personal experimentation.
Ricardo,
Have you found through playing guitars with what we call ‘the long scales’ 660 and up that they tend to have less compensation or zero compensation? Just asking about your observation.
I find building guitars that longer scales with low action need less compensation. And just for the record I don’t think short scale 630 ish guitars need more compensation, as some say.
I remember a Manuel de la Chica that was in Gene Clark’s shop around 2000/2001 was being repaired. He pointed out that it had a 26” scale exactly, without compensation. It was 13” from nut to 12th fret and 13” from 12th fret to saddle. And it was from soup to nuts a fantastic guitar.
RE: Scale length with zero fret (in reply to estebanana)
I thought you'd like the MMA thing ha ha. Even though I say it in humour, it's true though, and you know it.
That's why there are no 'Learn to repair in a week' courses out there.
Every time you get an instrument on your bench, a new course starts. One day you might be working on a classical guitar, the next day you're replacing a banjo head, or rewinding a vintage pickup.
It's just a different set of skills, and an endless learning curve. I haven't even scratched the surface, and I've been around guitars all my life. You think you've met the final boss, and the next job makes you realise the game has only just started.
Never look down your nose at a repairer. Never say "I know my ****" to a repairer either, as they'll take you in the deep end and drown you. We worship different Gods / Devils.
RE: Scale length with zero fret (in reply to Firefrets)
quote:
Never look down your nose at a repairer. Never say "I know my ****" to a repairer either, as they'll take you in the deep end and drown you. We worship different Gods / Devils.
Thing is, most makers are also well versed in repair. It helps put food on the table. Nobody's looking down their nose at anybody.
You want to take somebody to task for saying they know their sh*t then remind yourself of the provocation you levelled when you told somebody that gave you ample opportunity to correct yourself to "go study". That you removed the remark later doesn't change anything. The crux of the matter is you offered vague statements in a section that demands precision when discussing the craft. And you did this after I had presented precise information. To do so was dismissive and it was disrespectful. I tried to give you an out. I suggested that perhaps you had made a typo, you yourself insisted it wasn't. I offered that maybe you had your units wrong, you doubled down. You're still doubling down. I apologized for an insensitive remark. You respond with derision and a lecture.
Get over yourself, man. Most of this is on you. I'm not going to apologize for being good at what I do.
Posts: 16045
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Scale length with zero fret (in reply to estebanana)
quote:
Have you found through playing guitars with what we call ‘the long scales’ 660 and up that they tend to have less compensation or zero compensation? Just asking about your observation.
I can say I have noticed guitars compensated or not regardless of scale. However, yes, after measuring and knowing the numbers, I see more compensation used deliberately on shorter guitars for some reason. I do feel this is because of some preconception that a short scale will need more, and I don't get why. As a recent example a flamenco Student/Luthier had a Hauser 2 that is sized down, unlike my Father's guitar, and it had MORE compensation than even I was used to (a good 4mm back), but was "corrected" by an aluminum saddle that lets the strings release closer toward the nut as a sort of counter compensation. The owner and my student both shocked that Hauser would make this "error" and I explained that it seems deliberate. He is being asked to make bone saddle with a similar correction feature. Then I played it and showed how I would intonate it different than my 670 sobrinos de esteso to show you can fix the issue with fingers and ears.
RE: Scale length with zero fret (in reply to RobF)
I was going to say "Go **** yourself" and thought better of it. I thought don't fall out with the guy, instead get to know him a bit better. You weren't aware of something, and had been bitchy, so I said "Go study" instead. I could have said much worse, but I bit my lip. I then even removed the 'go study'. You ain't removed anything dude, it's still up on public display, (you wonder why I'm a bit off?) so don't go there.
I don't know you at all mate. You might be a retired builder with 60 years of experience for all I know, but even then, you're still an individual, and know what you know. You might be the holy grail on here, but you're just another forum member to me, with a bit of a big opinion of himself.
If my name was Dan Irlewine, would you pipe up, or pipe down? I'm not a forum member from the guitar section with an interest in learning how to build. I came to building 'last' after studying everything else. I came to classical guitar last, after playing many other genres. For me, it's a closing chapter in a long learning curve, not the beginning. I embraced the woodwork side, and the building side, to become better at what I do. I don't want to become a builder. Just a better restorer.
Don't tell me I should come on here and learn from you, like I'm here to study under you. I'm your equal, not your student. I do different stuff to you, but the world of guitars is vast. If I spoke 7 languages and came on here to discuss an 8th, would you think I was beneath you, just because you spoke that language well? You get over yourself too fella.
I hadn't even read your post prior to posting originally, so any disrespect you took was simply paranoia.
As for 'most makers are well versed in repair' that's disrespectful and condescending. Again, you think repair is confined to fixing a few dings on a Spanish guitar. Repair involves working on all kinds of musical instruments, with all kinds of problems, not just one thing. You have to develop, in the same way you have to when you build. It's not something you can just do part time. There's not enough hours in the day. It's full time stuff.
Are we done?
As long as your comments are there, we're not going to be friends, just so you know. You talk of giving somebody an out? Well there's 'your' out.
RE: Scale length with zero fret (in reply to Firefrets)
quote:
I was going to say "Go **** yourself" and thought better of it... ... Are we done? As long as your comments are there, we're not going to be friends, just so you know. You talk of giving somebody an out? Well there's 'your' out.
I'm not taking anything down. My words stand and I'm fine with not being your friend. Her's some more. You're an idiot. You want to threaten people on a public forum you'll get exactly what you deserve. You didn't say it, but I will. Go f*ck yourself.
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