Flamenco vs Classical

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SriLanang

Posts: 2
Joined: Apr. 13 2006

Flamenco vs Classical

Greetings to all flamenco aficionados!

Im from Malaysia and deeply interested in flamenco guitar playing. I had learn for about a year now..

What bothers me is that i found out that flamenco style of playing had somehow deteriorating my classical playing.. I learn classical before i switch into flamenco.... I dunno if this is normal amongst player...or it just me. But it kinda frustrating though. I experience that my arpeggios not as good as before when i try to play a classical piece...
My picado has improve though...

What is your opinion about this. I really want to master flamenco but at the same time i'd still like to play classical.

Please excuse my grammar.....

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 13 2006 4:45:58

duende

Posts: 3053
Joined: Dec. 15 2003
From: Sweden

RE: Flamenco vs Classical (in reply to SriLanang)

funny your arpeggio should be MORE advanced than before.

Picado is not the most important technique in flamenco.
i would spend a lot more time on developing my thumb, Alzapua, RASGUEADOS. Arpegios.
also do a lot of P, i stuff.

Since you can play classical i sure you can play a some scales anyway even if it´s not at Paco speed

so i would start with ONE basic rasgueado like AMI all down. or AMII with last finger going up. maybe XAMI as well
then just play the basic solea struming for some time. F-C-F-E and also Tangos. Bb to A.

Henrik

_____________________________

This is hard stuff!
Don't give up...
And don't make it a race.
Enjoy the ray of sunshine that comes with every new step in knowledge.

RON

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 13 2006 5:56:37

Gecko

Posts: 218
Joined: Jan. 2 2006
From: New Mexico

RE: Flamenco vs Classical (in reply to SriLanang)

Since starting flamenco about 6-8 months ago my classical has suffered somewhat as well. However, I now spend more time practicing flamenco than I do classical, so I have attributed it to that.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 13 2006 10:40:21

Skai

Posts: 317
Joined: Sep. 12 2004

RE: Flamenco vs Classical (in reply to SriLanang)

I beg to differ that your arpeggios for classical would improve after playing flamenco. Yes, there are many complex flowing arpeggios in flamenco but in classical, you have no room for uneven arpeggios.

Same goes for tremolo. Uneven flamenco tremolo is common and sometimes praised as being 'textured'. In classical, any unevenness will display your technical insecurity and not-up-to-standard playing.

I'm now practically 80% focused on classical at the moment, so it's no doubt that my flamenco falls far behind because of my lack of time. You get returns in whatever you put more effort in.

For those who think that classical is about simple arpeggios should try to attempt Estudio Brilliante de Alard by Tarrega. To play it up to speed is tough, to attain a smooth flow and bring out the melody amidst the arpeggios is the real challenge. I'd like watch a flamenco player play it with the same effect as a classical guitarist.

_____________________________

Try some Enrique Iglesias for some great cante.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 13 2006 12:42:17

duende

Posts: 3053
Joined: Dec. 15 2003
From: Sweden

RE: Flamenco vs Classical (in reply to SriLanang)

why would anybody think that it´s more room for uneven tremolo/arpegios,picados etc in flamenco?
that attidude will never get a player to develop a good technique.
it´s never ok to be sloppy.

I just listen to that Tarrega piece and found the tabs for it.
I would recomend this tune for any fingerstyle player.
The kind of arpeggios used are just what you use a lot in flamenco.
P i m a m i and a m i a m i
And that tempo is fast as well , just like the flamencos would play these kinds of arpeggios.

_____________________________

This is hard stuff!
Don't give up...
And don't make it a race.
Enjoy the ray of sunshine that comes with every new step in knowledge.

RON

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 13 2006 12:45:34

Ricardo

Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Flamenco vs Classical (in reply to Skai)

quote:

For those who think that classical is about simple arpeggios should try to attempt Estudio Brilliante de Alard by Tarrega. To play it up to speed is tough, to attain a smooth flow and bring out the melody amidst the arpeggios is the real challenge. I'd like watch a flamenco player play it with the same effect as a classical guitarist.

I will look for the piece next week when I visit my mom's. My Dad had all that Tarrega music in a huge file cabinet. If I find it I will work on it.

In the mean time, I challenge any classical player to whip into shape a version of Gerardo Nunez's Trafalgar (transcription by Faucher is good) played "evenly" and in compas. There is only like 2 short rasgueados in the piece, it is mainly arpeggio, but flamenco style arps, cool synchopations that bring out the bulerias feeling.

Honestly, I dont' think the techinque of either style should suffer much in terms of playing. But TONE is the big factor that is definantly messed up by switching between styles.

Ricardo

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 13 2006 21:41:40

SriLanang

Posts: 2
Joined: Apr. 13 2006

RE: Flamenco vs Classical (in reply to SriLanang)

Thanks for the reply.. Im still novice in flamenco and not so expert in classical. Hehe!

tanks anyway for the suggestion duende. I tink i can develop more participating in this forum.

Are there differences in style in flamenco playing?...coz i watched several teaching video like Juan Martin, Serrano ...and i see their technique is different from Paco DL, Oscar Herrero.

But i am lucky to have a local friend here who taught me what he emphasizes as the "proper technique" in flamenco. He went to Spain to learn flamenco some time ago. But i can see his style the same as of Paco. He taught me "its all about hand positioning" with the thumb always resting on the sixth string and the palm..always maintain it parallel with the string. And always try keep the position when u do arpeggioss, picado...etc. I hope u can understand my point....hehe

I tink tats why my classical style had been affected when im trying hard to adapt the hand positioning...

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 14 2006 3:05:56

Ricardo

Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Flamenco vs Classical (in reply to SriLanang)

quote:

Are there differences in style in flamenco playing?...coz i watched several teaching video like Juan Martin, Serrano ...and i see their technique is different from Paco DL, Oscar Herrero.

Yeah there are differences. Most players wish to play with the same ease and fluidity that Paco has, that is the main difference.

But there are great players who do it different than Paco. There is no "proper" technique, but just based on the description, it sounds like your friend knows his stuff, and you should do well by learning from him. Ultimately you have to be able to PLAY something, which ever technique style you develop. You have to beable to play smooth and in rhythm, no matter what your hand position looks like. Watch the video Rito y Geografia del Toque, to see MANY different styles of the masters, including Paco.

Ricardo

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 14 2006 7:32:16

Skai

Posts: 317
Joined: Sep. 12 2004

RE: Flamenco vs Classical (in reply to SriLanang)

When I mentioned uneven, I meant playing it on purpose for example like PdL with accents and pauses at strategic intervals, eg. a thumb note held abit longer. Of course this is not saying that they couldn't have trained it evenly!

But at the same time, you have to admit that nail click sounds at times are more forgiveable in flamenco, even PdL records have them. But every nail click in something like Recuerdos is an error. However, Pena has an absolutely wonderful tremolo. Cheers to Pena!

However, the method and tone of accenting is different in both styles. Arpeggios tend to focus on flow in classical, whereas in flamenco, the flow is of a different kind. It's so hard to explain but you can tell whether a person has been putting effort in a particular style quite easily.

As for picado, this technique is highly similar and will help in classical no doubt. But changes in tone have to be made. To think that classical is a toned down version of flamenco is a huge mistake, there are far more considerations in classical apart from technical speed and confidence. Every single note has to be well thought out and played with 'correct' tone and exact angle of attack.

All in all, 'unevenness' is NOT a form of sloppiness when mentioned in this case. I'm sure anyone can tell the difference between textured flamenco playing and someone who can't play! Non-textured flamenco playing practically bores me and all recordings I've heard are textured in the 'right way'!

To ask a classical player to play flamenco without any compas background is rather unfair though. The rhythm itself is not something that can be 'transferred', unlike techniques which can get very similar. Bulerias? C'mon that's not a fair challenge! Estudio Brilliante as the name suggests, is simply an arpeggio study!

The trick of it is how to bring out the voicing at higher speeds, rather than let it get lost inside the arpeggios.

This is precisely the point I'm trying to make. Without accenting in a way that classical guitarists are never trained to, and playing a rhythm alien to classical music, they will be wasting their time without learning compas and I recommend any pure classical player not to waste their time.

_____________________________

Try some Enrique Iglesias for some great cante.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 15 2006 4:01:33

Kris

Posts: 3
Joined: May 8 2009

RE: Flamenco vs Classical (in reply to SriLanang)

Hi
I come to flamenco with a classical technic. After changing my thump position and pratice full and sequential planting in arpeggios, I began to feel a better stability and accuracy with my right hand. I sow in a video (see below Frank Steffen Mueller) who explain that after playing ima you have to move your fingers toward the palm, as Paco de Lucia used to do. This seem requiere a hard work for me to change my technic. What do you think about that?
See at 2.59:

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 14 2018 21:18:40

kitarist

Posts: 1715
Joined: Dec. 4 2012

RE: Flamenco vs Classical (in reply to Kris)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kris
I sow in a video (see below Frank Steffen Mueller) who explain that after playing ima you have to move your fingers toward the palm,

This type of advice is usually one of emphasis rather than to be taken literally, though this is not evident in this particular video. You do not have to literally move your fingertips all the way into the palm. Think about this - all this movement is after the string has been released - so trying to follow the trajectory literally has no bearing on the sound.

Usually this is advice given to beginners where a teacher is trying to correct bad finger/hand setup, posture and plucking or is trying to trick the fingers into properly plucking a string (with some force toward the sound hole; not just in the plane of the strings, and with enough force) along with how to reset and prepare for the next stroke.

It is a point of emphasis - an exaggerated motion as a tool to help with fixing of (or learning to do proper) stroke. It is sometimes useful as a tool, but it is not describing the actual finger(tip) movement at normal playing speeds.

I personally am not impressed with the video you are asking about (the little part around 3:00 that I saw). Not just because the distinction between exaggerating a point for emphasis vs. a literal recipe for finger motion is not clearly made, but because this person seems to be trying hard to not move from the knuckle (MCP) joint instead of letting a more natural interaction between the motions around the 3 finger joints unfold. Just my opinion.

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Konstantin

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 14 2018 21:42:08