RE: Flamenco defined by law to keep Andalusia in step with history

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BarkellWH

Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Flamenco defined by law to keep ... (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

I hate to be ‘that guy’ and be right all the time. ( actually I like being that guy and being correct)

In Japan the government gave reasonable assistance to businesses in the tourism industry and to small organizations that supported cultural activities. The tourism industry rather than being damaged, emerged in pretty good health because the government helped those in tourism to upgrade and remodel facilities while there was tourist down time. Tourists are back and Japan is a hot ticket.
There was minimal damage to the industry and in some ways vast improvements. Japan’s problems are linguistic, not tourist flow and use infrastructure, or loss of places to show cultural heritage.
The Spanish government probably could have done more and done better.

I needn't remind you that there is a big difference between Japan and Spain that goes way beyond distance. It is hard to think of two countries and societies that are more different in terms of culture, work ethic, corruption, nepotism, and other elements that, depending on their presence or absence, affect how a society advances or not in certain areas. I don't think what works in Japan necessarily will work in Spain. I'm not saying it wouldn't work, but I don't think Japan's achievement in governmental assistance is a template for expectation of the same result in Spain.

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 18 2023 12:31:20

estebanana

Posts: 9353
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Flamenco defined by law to keep ... (in reply to BarkellWH)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BarkellWH

quote:

I hate to be ‘that guy’ and be right all the time. ( actually I like being that guy and being correct)

In Japan the government gave reasonable assistance to businesses in the tourism industry and to small organizations that supported cultural activities. The tourism industry rather than being damaged, emerged in pretty good health because the government helped those in tourism to upgrade and remodel facilities while there was tourist down time. Tourists are back and Japan is a hot ticket.
There was minimal damage to the industry and in some ways vast improvements. Japan’s problems are linguistic, not tourist flow and use infrastructure, or loss of places to show cultural heritage.
The Spanish government probably could have done more and done better.

I needn't remind you that there is a big difference between Japan and Spain that goes way beyond distance. It is hard to think of two countries and societies that are more different in terms of culture, work ethic, corruption, nepotism, and other elements that, depending on their presence or absence, affect how a society advances or not in certain areas. I don't think what works in Japan necessarily will work in Spain. I'm not saying it wouldn't work, but I don't think Japan's achievement in governmental assistance is a template for expectation of the same result in Spain.

Bill

Bill,

Japan is probably more corrupt than you see from the outside, it suffers from heavy cronyism in politics at the local level. I could go into it. The fabled Yakusa is also very real and active. The main problem with Japan is the misogynistic attitudes of old men who are in the majority Conservative Party called the Jimento, that everyone who has a brain hates with a passion. The LDG - liberal Democratic Party is like the non insane part of the US Republicans, but more misogynistic in that they push women out of the national government. Margaret Thatcher would have been too uppity for them. Oddly enough Japan has something to protect women that’s similar to the ERA amendment in the US, but its operating principles are obtuse. Abortion remains illegal, but there are lots of exceptions to the law, which make it a shameful but attainable procedure.

The Jimento based themselves on the Tories in the UK and their one saving attribute is that they won’t dismantle national healthcare. Other than that they move pretty slowly. They recognize the need for tourism dollars too, and did a better than average job of keeping the tourism from disappearing. They are still out of step with the public who are under 40 50 years old

At the local level these guys are the implacable force of nature that Conrad cited when he described the jungles of the Belgian Congo. Thankfully these old shochu gulping geezers are being challenged, incrementally.

But in the maintenance of the tourism industry Spain normally sees three times the tourism of Japan-

2019 figured out Spain at 83 million tourists and Japan at 32 million, so far this year since Japan been open it’s been a whopping 3.6 million and it’s just ramping up.

And I’d agree with your points on how different the cultures are, and in ways painfully different for me. I often call Japan the world’s most boring country. Japan is an introvert and Spain is an extrovert if they were individual humans. But along with the insularity comes a certain kind of security both mental and physical. Although both Spaniards and Japanese think the American NRA is completely inhumane and insane. Which it is.

All considered in the context of tourism that supports Flamenco, Kabuki, famous churches and Buddhist temples, parks, resort towns, cultural patrimony, Spain could do better.

_____________________________

https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 18 2023 14:42:34

Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Flamenco defined by law to keep ... (in reply to Brendan)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brenda
Here is an argument about why jazz musicians now all sound the same. Never mind whether he’s exactly right about jazz, just notice that the forces he points at (collapse of record sales, their replacement by social media clips) are all firmly in the private sector. https://youtu.be/Zrp-2JPSoYE

Thanks, Brendan. It's an interesting video. The point about the causes all being in the private sector is well taken.

RNJ

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 18 2023 16:21:09

estebanana

Posts: 9353
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Flamenco defined by law to keep ... (in reply to Richard Jernigan)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Richard Jernigan

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brenda
Here is an argument about why jazz musicians now all sound the same. Never mind whether he’s exactly right about jazz, just notice that the forces he points at (collapse of record sales, their replacement by social media clips) are all firmly in the private sector. https://youtu.be/Zrp-2JPSoYE

Thanks, Brendan. It's an interesting video. The point about the causes all being in the private sector is well taken.

RNJ

The music critic Alex Ross wrote an entire book about this around 2005 or 2006-

He wrote about the feedback loop of interpretation manifested in conservatories by listening to the modern canon of classical pieces recorded by 20th century masters. It’s interesting what one of my cello teachers had to say about this: Irene Sharp a giant in string music pedagogy- sarcasm “ oh my my, wouldn’t it just be a shame if a student grew into a professional cellist and they sounded like Rostropovich ? “

Yes it would tragic if a kid played trumpet like Miles. Sorry, but I find this argument shallow and unnecessary. I follow several jazz musicians on Instagram and put the time in listening to a lot of jazz- like the the person to person history of saxophonists. What I hear is people are still making Coltrane and Be-Bop respectively sound fresh today.

I hear Pepe Habichuela in a particular contemporary flamenco player, and think, yeah he was Pepe’s student. It makes sense.

I overheard a grad student, when I was in college, she asked her advisor if she could write on Eric Satie for her thesis. He said no, absolutely not. I want you to write about Brahms. In the moment I thought what a jerk, but years later I realized he had her best interest in mind. He listed the reasons why Satie wasn’t appropriate, and why Brahms was. He basically said “You will do Brahms”. His reasoning was that Satie is a side show in relative terms to Brahms, because Johannes was grappling with a bigger heavier chunk of history in Beethoven and Satie was regrouping late medieval harmony into vignettes.

Satie is cool, but Brahms is a stronger bridge. It’s a far more complex problem to learn to solve. It’s not a hipster project.

_____________________________

https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 19 2023 6:33:40

Ricardo

Posts: 14822
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Flamenco defined by law to keep ... (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

His reasoning was that Satie is a side show in relative terms to Brahms, because Johannes was grappling with a bigger heavier chunk of history in Beethoven and Satie was regrouping late medieval harmony into vignettes.

Satie is cool, but Brahms is a stronger bridge. It’s a far more complex problem to learn to solve. It’s not a hipster project.

This is all lost on me. At first I was thinking there was some musical connection between the two, and double checking, I see none. What does one have to do with the other? And Brahms? I could understand someone wanting to do Bach and a professor saying, do Brahms instead. Or Wagner even. But I don’t get the reasoning. What exactly is the “problem” being solved?

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 19 2023 14:06:06

estebanana

Posts: 9353
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Flamenco defined by law to keep ... (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

quote:

His reasoning was that Satie is a side show in relative terms to Brahms, because Johannes was grappling with a bigger heavier chunk of history in Beethoven and Satie was regrouping late medieval harmony into vignettes.

Satie is cool, but Brahms is a stronger bridge. It’s a far more complex problem to learn to solve. It’s not a hipster project.

This is all lost on me. At first I was thinking there was some musical connection between the two, and double checking, I see none. What does one have to do with the other? And Brahms? I could understand someone wanting to do Bach and a professor saying, do Brahms instead. Or Wagner even. But I don’t get the reasoning. What exactly is the “problem” being solved?