Uneven string spacing tie block holes

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silddx

Posts: 570
Joined: May 8 2012
From: London

Uneven string spacing tie block holes

On both my guitars, and they are nice guitars, the string spacing is sightly uneven as a result of the tie block holes not being quite right. One string is out on both of them, E too close to A on one, and G a little toward the B on the other. Only by a fraction but I wonder why, with so much attention to detail on the other aspects of the instrument, this is acceptable.

Anyone one else have this issue and does it bother you? Does it cause you any problems with your playing?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 11 2023 16:47:35

constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1674
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: Uneven string spacing tie block ... (in reply to silddx)

What makes are those guitars?

I have never seen that before. It is normal for the string spacing at the nut to actually be uneven. On purpose so that it looks even--due to the different widths of strings. But your situation looks like errors. The holes are normally evenly spaced on the bridge.

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Ethan Deutsch
www.edluthier.com
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I always have flamenco guitars available for sale.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 12 2023 3:04:24

chester

Posts: 891
Joined: Oct. 29 2010

RE: Uneven string spacing tie block ... (in reply to silddx)

Is it just me, or does the spacing not look weird at all? Which strings are spaced differently apart?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 12 2023 4:55:42

Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Uneven string spacing tie block ... (in reply to chester)

quote:

ORIGINAL: chester

Is it just me, or does the spacing not look weird at all? Which strings are spaced differently apart?

I had to look closely and pay attention to sllddx's description.

I blew the photos up a little on my fairly high resolution 24-inch (70-cm) monitor and got out a good metric ruler. The spacing irregularities at the bridge saddle are as sllddx describes, varying by maybe 10% at most.

RNJ

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 12 2023 8:05:03

orsonw

Posts: 1934
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: Uneven string spacing tie block ... (in reply to chester)

quote:

Is it just me, or does the spacing not look weird at all? Which strings are spaced differently apart?

The order of the photos is reversed compared to the order of his description. i.e. "E too close to A' refers to the bottom photo. 'G a little toward the B' top photo.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 12 2023 8:47:30

ernandez R

Posts: 737
Joined: Mar. 25 2019
From: Alaska USA

RE: Uneven string spacing tie block ... (in reply to silddx)

I guess you need to ask yourself is the string spacing variation at the tie block causing you issues or is it just something you noticed after the fact?

When I owned one guitar, if I picked up another a felt all the differences right away, having owned a few with different scales, from 23” to 666mm I don’t notice any more. First time I noodled around with my 23” parlor I found going back to a 650mm my right hand playing was more precise.

HR

_____________________________

I prefer my flamenco guitar spicy,
doesn't have to be fast,
should have some meat on the bones,
can be raw or well done,
as long as it doesn't sound like it's turning green on an elevator floor.

www.instagram.com/threeriversguitars

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 12 2023 8:59:08

silddx

Posts: 570
Joined: May 8 2012
From: London

RE: Uneven string spacing tie block ... (in reply to orsonw)

quote:

The order of the photos is reversed compared to the order of his description. i.e. "E too close to A' refers to the bottom photo. 'G a little toward the B' top photo.

Thanks, corrected.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 12 2023 9:32:09

silddx

Posts: 570
Joined: May 8 2012
From: London

RE: Uneven string spacing tie block ... (in reply to ernandez R)

quote:

I guess you need to ask yourself is the string spacing variation at the tie block causing you issues or is it just something you noticed after the fact?

It's not causing me any playing problems as far as I'm aware, but I find it mildly irritating from an aesthetic point of view :)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 12 2023 9:36:17

silddx

Posts: 570
Joined: May 8 2012
From: London

RE: Uneven string spacing tie block ... (in reply to constructordeguitarras)

quote:

What makes are those guitars?

The flowery block is a 2019 Juan Montes Rodrigues 1a

The other is a 1988 Antonio Ariza which I adore.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 12 2023 9:41:20

Echi

Posts: 1132
Joined: Jan. 11 2013

RE: Uneven string spacing tie block ... (in reply to silddx)

It's hard to say if this is fruit of an inaccurate drilling or it's something purposely searched by the maker. Most likely the first case.
I used to own a Felix Manzanero with a tiny different spacing between first and second string and I discovered this was something done for the purpose of better picado. In fact it was an extremely comfortable guitar to play with.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 12 2023 10:01:17

Ricardo

Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Uneven string spacing tie block ... (in reply to chester)

quote:

Is it just me, or does the spacing not look weird at all? Which strings are spaced differently apart?

It is inevitable that people start noticing this basic fact of all guitars, AFTER viewing the infamous RUBEN DIAZ video that explains why Andelusional guitars are the UNIQUE instruments that don’t have this “problem”. Step one in joining the brainwashing cult of the Professor “Oh no! Something is wrong with my guitar! Even though it is a Manuel Barbero 1960!”.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 12 2023 14:17:48

silddx

Posts: 570
Joined: May 8 2012
From: London

RE: Uneven string spacing tie block ... (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

It is inevitable that people start noticing this basic fact of all guitars, AFTER viewing the infamous RUBEN DIAZ video that explains why Andelusional guitars are the UNIQUE instruments that don’t have this “problem”. Step one in joining the brainwashing cult of the Professor “Oh no! Something is wrong with my guitar! Even though it is a Manuel Barbero 1960!”.

It wouldn't happen on a Yamaha

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 12 2023 14:34:03

Ricardo

Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Uneven string spacing tie block ... (in reply to silddx)

Here is a list of some more insane ideas to consider:

http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=152862&appid=&p=&mpage=1&key=spacing%2Cdiaz&tmode=&smode=&s=#152862

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 12 2023 15:08:12

JasonM

Posts: 2055
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Uneven string spacing tie block ... (in reply to silddx)

The guitar I built has slightly uneven spacing between the D and G strings. Rookie error, I guess. To be as precise as possible when drilling the holes, I made a paper template for spacing and marked the holes with an awl (pointy pick). I had the accuracy down! And yet still, uneven! None of my brain surgery patients have ever complained about uneven holes in their head.

Anyway, one thing you can try is to make a little notch in the saddle to guide the string along the where it should be. I feel like someone will say that’s not good, but as long as it’s not drastic I’ve never had a problem. Proper way would be to plug and redrill or pretend you never noticed it

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 12 2023 15:30:49

RobF

Posts: 1611
Joined: Aug. 24 2017

RE: Uneven string spacing tie block ... (in reply to JasonM)

quote:

And yet still, uneven! None of my brain surgery patients have ever complained about uneven holes in their head.

They’re not complaining because they can’t remember how it happened!

Seriously though, the holes could be plugged and redrilled, but the errors are slight and the plugs themselves can have a tendency to pull things out of alignment. In other words, it may or may not be perfect even after a repair although, then again, it might be and it shouldn’t cost too much to do, so it could be worth a try.

I think checking out pictures of other bridges on the internet could help as slight misalignments are not that unusual, a lot of bridges aren’t perfect. If it’s not causing playability issues and the guitars are enjoyed then I wouldn’t be too concerned about it, I don’t think the guitars are devalued or anything like that.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 12 2023 16:20:21

orsonw

Posts: 1934
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: Uneven string spacing tie block ... (in reply to silddx)

quote:

It's not causing me any playing problems as far as I'm aware, but I find it mildly irritating from an aesthetic point of view :)

I see Ricardo couldn't resist the bait and has evoked he who must not be named!

I once bought a guitar where someone had done a bad job converting to 12 holes. The holes were very much more out of alignment than yours. So much that the strings had to be lined up with grooves in the saddle. It played fine.
Only problem was that the holes were at the bone inlay and treble strings kept breaking against the sharp edge of bone. So Pablo Requena suggested replacing the tie block section. He is a masterful luthier so I agreed. He used a metal jig to line up the new holes perfectly.

You can see the work on the thread linked below.

http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=236023&appid=&p=&mpage=1&key=&tmode=&smode=&s=#236023

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 12 2023 16:31:22

silddx

Posts: 570
Joined: May 8 2012
From: London

RE: Uneven string spacing tie block ... (in reply to orsonw)

Ahh yes, I read that a couple of years ago, very interesting! Thank you.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 12 2023 21:39:29

silddx

Posts: 570
Joined: May 8 2012
From: London

RE: Uneven string spacing tie block ... (in reply to RobF)

quote:

Seriously though, the holes could be plugged and redrilled, but the errors are slight and the plugs themselves can have a tendency to pull things out of alignment. In other words, it may or may not be perfect even after a repair although, then again, it might be and it shouldn’t cost too much to do, so it could be worth a try.

I think checking out pictures of other bridges on the internet could help as slight misalignments are not that unusual, a lot of bridges aren’t perfect. If it’s not causing playability issues and the guitars are enjoyed then I wouldn’t be too concerned about it, I don’t think the guitars are devalued or anything like that.

It doesn't really bother me much, it doesn't appear to have any tangible effect on playability. But when I look at them the unevenness is starkly apparent, but I think I have a good eye for details like this generally.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 12 2023 22:17:51

Stu

Posts: 2526
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England

RE: Uneven string spacing tie block ... (in reply to silddx)

On the 12 hole bridge you have your strings coming out of the wrong holes no?

I mean id have the strings coming out of the other holes.

Right or wrong...might be worth a try. maybe the other whole for the E string is accurate and you'd lose that error.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 12 2023 22:48:55

JasonM

Posts: 2055
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Uneven string spacing tie block ... (in reply to orsonw)

quote:

I see Ricardo couldn't resist the bait and has evoked he who must not be named!

Ahh and you guys know this is a thing? Been watching his videos? Drinking the cool aid out of curiosity have you?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 13 2023 0:29:12

silddx

Posts: 570
Joined: May 8 2012
From: London

RE: Uneven string spacing tie block ... (in reply to Stu)

quote:

On the 12 hole bridge you have your strings coming out of the wrong holes no?

I mean id have the strings coming out of the other holes.

Right or wrong...might be worth a try. maybe the other whole for the E string is accurate and you'd lose that error.

Ah but if I did that the strings would not be aligned with the neck. They would all move a couple of mm toward the bass side.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 13 2023 7:45:12

silddx

Posts: 570
Joined: May 8 2012
From: London

RE: Uneven string spacing tie block ... (in reply to JasonM)

quote:

Anyway, one thing you can try is to make a little notch in the saddle to guide the string along the where it should be. I feel like someone will say that’s not good, but as long as it’s not drastic I’ve never had a problem. Proper way would be to plug and redrill or pretend you never noticed it

On the 12 hole I have done that and the low E sits nicely in it and stays there. But that won't work for the trebles.

I had two different opinions from two respected luthiers on notching the saddle bone.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 13 2023 7:47:56

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Uneven string spacing tie block ... (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

quote:

Is it just me, or does the spacing not look weird at all? Which strings are spaced differently apart?

It is inevitable that people start noticing this basic fact of all guitars, AFTER viewing the infamous RUBEN DIAZ video that explains why Andelusional guitars are the UNIQUE instruments that don’t have this “problem”. Step one in joining the brainwashing cult of the Professor “Oh no! Something is wrong with my guitar! Even though it is a Manuel Barbero 1960!”.

Can I interest you in a breakfast of fresh sliced mango, light rye toast, a gently poached egg and a coffee?

_____________________________

https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 13 2023 13:45:42

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Uneven string spacing tie block ... (in reply to silddx)

quote:

ORIGINAL: silddx

quote:

Anyway, one thing you can try is to make a little notch in the saddle to guide the string along the where it should be. I feel like someone will say that’s not good, but as long as it’s not drastic I’ve never had a problem. Proper way would be to plug and redrill or pretend you never noticed it

On the 12 hole I have done that and the low E sits nicely in it and stays there. But that won't work for the trebles.

I had two different opinions from two respected luthiers on notching the saddle bone.

If the spacing at nut or saddle bother you enough to keep you from being happy, get it fixed. But remember looking at a what you think are uneven string spacing and actually feeling uneven string spacing causing problems with string crossing during picado or arpeggio are two separate things. Really analyze your situation and determine if you’re overthinking it due to visual issues or if the string spacing is causing technique problems. Then go forth and act on it.

Peace baby

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https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 13 2023 14:08:46

Ricardo

Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Uneven string spacing tie block ... (in reply to silddx)

quote:

ORIGINAL: silddx

quote:

Seriously though, the holes could be plugged and redrilled, but the errors are slight and the plugs themselves can have a tendency to pull things out of alignment. In other words, it may or may not be perfect even after a repair although, then again, it might be and it shouldn’t cost too much to do, so it could be worth a try.

I think checking out pictures of other bridges on the internet could help as slight misalignments are not that unusual, a lot of bridges aren’t perfect. If it’s not causing playability issues and the guitars are enjoyed then I wouldn’t be too concerned about it, I don’t think the guitars are devalued or anything like that.

It doesn't really bother me much, it doesn't appear to have any tangible effect on playability. But when I look at them the unevenness is starkly apparent, but I think I have a good eye for details like this generally.

yet, you are not bothered by the differing string diameters.

. Why don’t you humor us and take some single type of fluorescent string and tie those on and tell us how uneven the string spacing is?

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 13 2023 15:31:16

silddx

Posts: 570
Joined: May 8 2012
From: London

RE: Uneven string spacing tie block ... (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

yet, you are not bothered by the differing string diameters. . Why don’t you humor us and take some single type of fluorescent string and tie those on and tell us how uneven the string spacing is?

Harsh.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 13 2023 17:02:48

Ricardo

Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Uneven string spacing tie block ... (in reply to silddx)

quote:

ORIGINAL: silddx

quote:

yet, you are not bothered by the differing string diameters. . Why don’t you humor us and take some single type of fluorescent string and tie those on and tell us how uneven the string spacing is?

Harsh.

Or it might legitimately explain how spacing SHOULD be to accommodate string diameter differences and what it will “look like” aesthetically. And hopefully the idea that the edges of strings are supposed to “look” evenly spaced won’t spread resulting in a bunch of new students with suddenly defective instruments that were perfectly fine before they “saw” the problem.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 13 2023 17:28:53

silddx

Posts: 570
Joined: May 8 2012
From: London

RE: Uneven string spacing tie block ... (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

Or it might legitimately explain how spacing SHOULD be to accommodate string diameter differences and what it will “look like” aesthetically. And hopefully the idea that the edges of strings are supposed to “look” evenly spaced won’t spread resulting in a bunch of new students with suddenly defective instruments that were perfectly fine before they “saw” the problem.

I've been playing acoustic and electric guitars and basses for over 40 years, and played and owned a wide variety of different ones. I know what string spacing should look like and why it can be important.

Why the only guitars I have ever had that has this uneven string spacing have been my two flamenco guitars was a mystery to me which is why I asked on here.

My intent was to find out if others on this foro have guitars like this, and if it matters. There was no malicious intent to get people to complain to their guitar shops or constructors, and if there is a virus-like stampede for compensation (see what I did there?) I can only deeply apologise.

EDIT: Having just looked at various very expensive guitars on Solera Flamenca, there are plenty with slight string spacing unevenness. Perhaps I should have done this before posting, although none I've seen are as pronounced as mine.

In other news, I couldn't be more delighted with the cigarette test dimensions.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 13 2023 18:32:02

RobF

Posts: 1611
Joined: Aug. 24 2017

RE: Uneven string spacing tie block ... (in reply to silddx)

What Ricardo is talking about is the difference between center to center spacing and string edge to edge spacing. In your case, neither scenarios matter as a couple of strings are indeed slightly off. But it’s so slight it really isn’t worth being concerned about it. It’s also not uncommon to see this (as you have just confirmed).

For some perspective, if someone were to walk in the door and grab a really good guitar and try to talk it down by pointing out some minute spacing discrepancy and then use a mediocre guitar with perfect spacing to prove their point, I would hand them the mediocre guitar and say this is the one for you. You can’t have the other.

Honestly, I understand how one can see something and not have the confidence to know if it’s an issue or not. It’s nagging. In this case, if the guitars play and sound good, and you like them, then rest assured they are OK, I wouldn’t give the spacing another thought. Also, there’s no foul in asking about this on the Foro, either, it’s a valid question, and the request for feedback was not unreasonable, IMO.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 13 2023 18:55:31

silddx

Posts: 570
Joined: May 8 2012
From: London

RE: Uneven string spacing tie block ... (in reply to RobF)

Thank you very much, Rob.

And just to reaffirm, I love the guitars.

I have only been learning Flamenco seriously for about 18 months so I am a proper rookie, asking what are clearly rookie questions.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 13 2023 18:59:46