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I've recently started practicing picado the way Paco de Lucia does it (i.e. with the elbow raised, and the wrist almost straight). This works really well, and have given me much more speed than I had previously. My problem is that I find it difficult to switch between the regular hand position and the picado hand position. It's time consuming, and it's not always easy to hit the right string after the transition.
RE: Switch to and from picado (in reply to eitanfar)
Getting speed in picado is very often the ability to play with more speed in descending scales. So lifting the elbow is much more comfortable than stroking into the hand. "lifting the elbow" is a combination of elbow lifting and a reduced angle of the forearm. In my lessons I saw many students using their standard hand position for being able to play any technique. In descending picado runs they keep their hand position by only adapting the angle of the forearm, no elbow lifting. So there is no switching of positions. Maybe this helps you.
Becoming fast on picado is more a technically aspect than related to special positions like elbow lifting. This is very individual. Each single person has a different body providing different oppertunities. What works good for Jim doesn´t need to work good for John. The goal is to find a balance allowing you to fulfill all required skills in a stream. If something is out of balance, then I would replace it for something that´s working better.
RE: Switch to and from picado (in reply to eitanfar)
quote:
My problem is that I find it difficult to switch between the regular hand position and the picado hand position. It's time consuming, and it's not always easy to hit the right string after the transition.
Any advice ?
Practice. Seriously. And, once you manage to get the hang of it, you'll try to learn some pro's falseta where he does the same thing but in a more challenging way. And then, if you want to master that falseta, you'll have to learn to do it even better than before.
There's this one falseta from Antonio Rey on which I've been working for the longest time. He moves from arpeggio to picado on two strings and then to a descending picado run. Learning to adjust my hand position accordingly took some getting used to. But it comes with practice. So, practice!
RE: Switch to and from picado (in reply to eitanfar)
Thanks everyone,
Sr. Martins: Thanks, that's always good advice
bernd: I tried not lifting my elbow, but when I do lift the elbow, thus reducing my forearm angle, my speed is much higher, and it feels more natural and healthy
machopicasso: Thanks, I want to practice it, but don't really have good exercises. Could you post a link to some note sheet or tabs of that falseta ? (even a youtube video should help)
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Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Switch to and from picado (in reply to eitanfar)
Practice Impetu by escudero, very slow and with metronome. Isolate the falsetas that have this transition, there are MANY in that piece. Make a loop of those spots and build tempo gradually. It will come with time. It end up being a little dance choreography that your hand learns. And like a dancer you should practice in the mirror.
RE: Switch to and from picado (in reply to eitanfar)
Thanks a lot, I'll give that a try.
My problem is that my background is in classical music, and I've been playing the classical rest stroke for so many years, it's now very difficult to switch to the Paco de Lucia style picado. I'm giving it my best shot though.
RE: Switch to and from picado (in reply to eitanfar)
quote:
ORIGINAL: eitanfar
Thanks a lot, I'll give that a try.
My problem is that my background is in classical music, and I've been playing the classical rest stroke for so many years, it's now very difficult to switch to the Paco de Lucia style picado. I'm giving it my best shot though.
Thanks, Eitan
Why bother changing. Picardo is any rest stroke however you want to do it - it's not essential to follow PdL and I would argue not worth the effort if you have a good classical rest stroke.
I started learning the PdL method over 10 years ago when I read about it in Graf-Martinez's book. This method confuses the hell out of most people who believe that the middle knuckle doesn't make much contribution to the power of the stroke. The confusion is understandable because it simply takes years and years of practice (if you practice this method an hour a day for 6 months you will have barely made a dent in your progress). A good alternative is to play with bent knuckles and a compact hand with the power coming from the large knuckle. But this isn't what PdL is doing.
RE: Switch to and from picado (in reply to eitanfar)
quote:
Thanks, I want to practice it, but don't really have good exercises. Could you post a link to some note sheet or tabs of that falseta ? (even a youtube video should help)
Well, Ricardo recommended learning "Impetu", so I'd follow his advice.
But, if you're curious, the falseta I had in mind runs from 1:17 to 1:30 in this clip:
Why bother changing. Picardo is any rest stroke however you want to do it - it's not essential to follow PdL and I would argue not worth the effort if you have a good classical rest stroke.
I have several reasons to want to switch:
1. When switching to Flamenco, I changed my posture completely to accommodate the different style of playing. Since then, it's no longer very comfortable for me to do a classical rest stroke, especially on the bass strings
2. My classical technique was good, but I didn't have very high speed (I never really needed that in the past). I understand that using PdL's technique one has the potential of gaining a lot of speed with proper practice
3. My classical technique was focused on the roundness and fullness of the sound, which is quite the opposite to the flamenco sound I would like to achieve
I've already gained reasonable confidence with the PdL technique, my problem is that when there are quick transitions to/from arpeggios, I'm still not very confident. I guess practicing the falsetas people here suggested a lot would do the trick.
RE: Switch to and from picado (in reply to eitanfar)
quote:
ORIGINAL: eitanfar
I've already gained reasonable confidence with the PdL technique, my problem is that when there are quick transitions to/from arpeggios, I'm still not very confident. I guess practicing the falsetas people here suggested a lot would do the trick.
Yes, practicing a lot is the key. I play an Aria silent guitar a lot while watching TV etc. And also have a small practice tool (about 5 frets worth) which can be used to practice right hand picado/arpeggio transitions. Do this on a car journey or flight and you can rack up a lot of practice time. Quite a few people say these things are worthless - strangely enough they are often ones with pretty poor technique ...
Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Switch to and from picado (in reply to eitanfar)
Just a couple of points.
1. Becareful with that whole middle joint power thing. It is deceiving when looking at front angle video shots of PDL and others. There is plenty of footage that shows PDL powering his strokes from the big joint viewed from different angles. His speed comes from rhythm control and staccato practice. Those are the keys. Banderas, Rey, Cepero, and many others that match PDL speed don't bend m finger knuckle as severely but achieve the same results of speed and tone, because they are essentially doing the same technique.
2. be aware of your position not only of arm and hand vertically, but also horizontally between sound hole and bridge. Shorter scale length guitars require you to be more precise at finding the "sweet spot" in this regard to optimize your tone and speed for picados. Normally PDL and others move closer to the bridge when moving from trebles to basses, but it is very subtle. The string tension can affect your accuracy. Stacato helps (right hand stopping not left hand stopping) because it helps you get a secure grip before each stroke, increasing your accuracy and tone and allowing more stamina and speed. Many players try to muscle their way through fast passages and run out of gas.
RE: Switch to and from picado (in reply to rombsix)
quote:
Be careful about your right shoulder & neck when doing the PdL picado position. Good luck!
This is definitely a shoulder killer if you focus on practicing this technique for hrs. If you have any shoulder issues you will find yourself resting and eventually digging your forearm on the edge of the guitar and that can also lead to tendon issues/fatigue if you are overdoing it. One should find it's own balance of what works for you and what others' technique is.
I read somewhere that it was Paco's father who helped him perfect his picado and apparently the lifting of the arm was his Dad's suggestion. How cool!
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From: Encinitas, CA USA
RE: Switch to and from picado (in reply to eitanfar)
I also have noticed PDL and also Moraito used straight fingers for picado while Tomatito's fingers are much more bent. I haven't decided for myself which technique I like ebst since I have not been playing that long. One exercise my teacher gave me is to play and arpeggio followed by rasgueados and then followed by picado and play it continuously over and over. Its really boring but I think helpful.
RE: Switch to and from picado (in reply to eitanfar)
quote:
My problem is that I find it difficult to switch between the regular hand position and the picado hand position.
Yes. It's a problem when you have to play a few notes apoyando during arpegio section. I wonder how Paco handle this situation? Any link to youtube video would be helpful. Thanks.
RE: Switch to and from picado (in reply to Ricardo)
Great. I remember watching it last year. This transition still bugs me. Do you agree this is the only drawback of Paco's right hand technique?
What if you keep your arpegio hand position and play picado? Will it sound as punchy as Paco's picado? I've recently started practicing it this way because it feels more natural to me. Does anyone on the foro play like this?
RE: Switch to and from picado (in reply to devilhand)
quote:
It's a problem when you have to play a few notes apoyando during arpegio section. I wonder how Paco handle this situation? Any link to youtube video would be helpful. Thanks.
quote:
This transition still bugs me. Do you agree this is the only drawback of Paco's right hand technique?
What if you keep your arpegio hand position and play picado? Will it sound as punchy as Paco's picado? I've recently started practicing it this way because it feels more natural to me. Does anyone on the foro play like this?
there are plenty of "transitions" between arpegio and picado here, just watch how he does it... all the transitions seem smooth to me, and he clearly has plenty of time for them!
maybe he's not changing the "position" of his right hand as much as you think he is - that doesn't mean he isn't changing the relationship of the hand to the strings, but you may be making a bigger deal of it than you need to.
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From: Washington DC
RE: Switch to and from picado (in reply to kitarist)
quote:
ORIGINAL: kitarist
quote:
Do you agree this is the only drawback of Paco's right hand technique?
What the fcuk are you talking about? There is no drawback, and there is plenty of time to do the switch.
I assume he means pulling the arm up a bit and flattening the palm vs an arched arpegio position. He calls it a “drawback” but this a general problem and nothing specific to Paco. Perhaps some people think playing with straight fingers is different, but it is not really any different. Fluidity of the notes is the issue and simply needs to be choreographed with rhythmic looping. When the scalar picado section is confined to the treble strings that the arpegio uses as well, very little movement occurs regardless of technique. In the example I gave it is more dramatic because I am preparing the arm for the extended run moving down to the bass strings, so the preparation looks like a lot of movement.
Cepero exhibits the same quick movements between arps and picados in the first piece here, despite a straight finger posture for the picado:
RE: Switch to and from picado (in reply to mark indigo)
quote:
there are plenty of "transitions" between arpegio and picado here, just watch how he does it... all the transitions seem smooth to me, and he clearly has plenty of time for them!
It can be smooth but one can clearly see the difference between the two at 1:50-2:00.
quote:
I assume he means pulling the arm up a bit and flattening the palm vs an arched arpegio position. He calls it a “drawback” but this a general problem and nothing specific to Paco.
This general problem can be solved when we allow no transition. We just keep that arpegio position and play both arpegio and picado even if we move down to the bass strings.
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Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Switch to and from picado (in reply to devilhand)
quote:
We just keep that arpegio position and play both arpegio and picado even if we move down to the bass strings.
You can’t do that, unless you want to compromise something. One important consideration is what the thumb needs to do for both passages. For example if only doing a-m-i arpegio with no thumb, then a switch to apoyando is imperceptible face on … you can only see a change by a side view observation of the tip joints, resting or plucking free.
RE: Switch to and from picado (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
You can’t do that, unless you want to compromise something.
Compromise exactly what? The same hand posture for both arpegio/tremolo and picado is in many ways superior. Initial arp hand posture covers picado on the first 2 treble strings. If you want picado on the string 3-6 you keep that arp hand posture and lift your elbow.
Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Switch to and from picado (in reply to devilhand)
quote:
Compromise exactly what? The same hand posture for both arpegio/tremolo and picado is in many ways superior.
You claim that there was but a single “drawback” to Paco’s technique, and it is assumed that he changes a little bit the posture in order of anticipation of moving the arm as a unit across the strings. Then you claim you have the solution to the “problem that doesn’t even exist”, and your “solution” is to not change the posture. Well, the compromise is that arpegio posture is designed to attack the treble strings ami being set comfortable above strings 1,2,3. You can’t do the same for picado that will cross all 6 because of the THUMB, who has to attack the basses at the same time during arpegio, but not needed usually for picados that cross to the basses. (An exception would be Panaderos where he does hit bass notes under the trebles before going all the way down, and there is very little change of posture in that passage, such that the thumb expression is a bit different than the one used under arpegios).
As I said before, you can use the same posture and move the arm if you choose to NOT USE THE THUMB for arpegios. The thumb use under picado attacks is necessarily different than the attack under arpegios. So you either compromise the thumb style under picado posture doing arps, or you compromise the wrist doing picado with arpegio posture, breaking the angle of the wrist as you move toward the bases. Instead of thinking there is some universal posture you should INSTEAD approach each passage and how it connects to the rest contextually and deal with the nuances of making the music fluid. That is how paco developed what he had, from the music and fluidity angle, not “i must now lift my arm, flatten my hand” etc.
Here at 1:33, no change of posture from the arpegio part (pmimim) to the long picado, due to the compromised bass note attacks, he just moves the arm. You can’t discern tirando from apoyando visually.
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