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The other day I was reading BMG magazine online. The following sentence was interesting to read.
quote:
The flamenco guitar is built for what you call a tinny tone. Most front-rank flamenco guitarists change their instruments frequently because in time any guitar mellows.
Is that true? If it's true, the second hand market must be filled with mellow sounding flamenco guitars. The seller won't tell you the truth.
What are the pros and cons of buying a second hand flamenco guitar? Should I buy a new flamenco guitar?
RE: A new flamenco guitar vs used fl... (in reply to devilhand)
I ran into this idea somewhere recently, that some flamenco players prefer an un-broken-in guitar. Maybe in a historical luthier bio or dealer or luthier interview.
But clearly there are lots of people who have played/are playing effective flamenco on not-new guitars, and the idea of a "played-out" guitar as it appears in the flamenco world clearly implies the guitars have a useful life once played in.
Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: A new flamenco guitar vs used fl... (in reply to devilhand)
This myth is coming from interviews of Carlos Montoya. His opinion was that he needed a new Barbero/Arcangel every 10 years. Back in the day, I guess he was the only flamenco guy that could speak English or something, so they take his words to the bank. And it is simply not true, it is very much the opposite. But remember he lived in NYC, and the cold weather near the water, means violent humidity changes that hurt guitars that are not treated with special isolation in a controlled environment.
Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
RE: A new flamenco guitar vs used fl... (in reply to Ricardo)
Speaking of Montoya, Barbero, et al:
The famous ‘51 Barbero, upon which Sabicas recorded Flamenco Puro, was one of Carlos Montoya’s castoffs. Attested by Barbero’s inscription on the underside of the top, it was built for Montoya, who sold it to Sabicas. Sabicas knew that Flamenco Puro was his most important solo recording up until then, and seemed satisfied with the used guitar.
The history of the instrument is told in this video by the luthier Aaron Green. The video also includes several minutes of playing on the guitar by Sabicas’s student Dennis Koster.
Posts: 2526
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England
RE: A new flamenco guitar vs used fl... (in reply to Richard Jernigan)
cool vid thanks.
I would love a go on that guitar!
that rasgueado that Dennis does... right at the start.. where he goes up and down the fret board. does that actually make any audible dfifference or is it a fashionable flourish from those older times?
RE: A new flamenco guitar vs used fl... (in reply to devilhand)
Please don’t be that guy Stu.
Best thing about used guitars is the matured sound. Hopefully. Like an aged whiskey. But there is also a lot of enjoyment getting a brand new guitar that smells good, finish is pristine, and you get to see it grow up and go to college
Does this mean Devilhand is getting a flamenco guitar? Has hell frozen over?
Posts: 1871
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco
RE: A new flamenco guitar vs used fl... (in reply to estebanana)
A lot of soloists from that era did that little bit of showmanship, my teacher Mariano Cordoba included. Also the endless ligados while holding up the right hand so everyone could see you were "PLAYING ONE HANDED!!!"
It's more subtle today but Antonio Rey isn't above selling his performance with stagecraft. Who can blame him? He's a guy sitting in a chair trying to entertain a room full of people, most of whom have no idea about the music he's playing.
I was watching a Roy Buchanan Vid over the weekend- his stage personna was deadpan, and his clothes, his pipe, even his hat, were, IMO a deliberate part of his presentation. Showbiz.....
quote:
ORIGINAL: estebanana
I complained to David Serva about a Sabicas video I saw where he did that rageo up and down the fingerboard on some toque for a Levant cante.
He said “Stephen, everyone has to make a living somehow.”
RE: A new flamenco guitar vs used fl... (in reply to Stu)
quote:
that rasgueado that Dennis does... right at the start.. where he goes up and down the fret board. does that actually make any audible dfifference or is it a fashionable flourish from those older times?
I actually lol'd at his rasgeado. One star deducted for doing this Dennis Costello.
quote:
Does this mean Devilhand is getting a flamenco guitar? Has hell frozen over?
Sooner or later. I haven't outgrown my current guitar yet. But one thing is for sure, it will be a new one.
Posts: 1871
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco
RE: A new flamenco guitar vs used fl... (in reply to devilhand)
Would you have laughed at Sabicas? Cause that's where he learned it. Do you have any respect for the maestros that created the career "flamenco guitar soloist"?
My teacher, in addition to employing Koster's little trick, also excelled at the four stroke continuous RAS starting with pinky and all fingers going down. It's a super old school ras and once, when I showed it to a guitarist, he smiled. I get it, but the fact was I wasn't that good at it. It's very difficult to get it even.
When my teacher did it, it sounded like a train coming down the tracks-super powerful. You wouldn't have laughed. You would have cried, knowing you'll never ever sound that good.
quote:
ORIGINAL: devilhand
quote:
that rasgueado that Dennis does... right at the start.. where he goes up and down the fret board. does that actually make any audible dfifference or is it a fashionable flourish from those older times?
I actually lol'd at his rasgeado. One star deducted for doing this Dennis Costello.
quote:
Does this mean Devilhand is getting a flamenco guitar? Has hell frozen over?
Sooner or later. I haven't outgrown my current guitar yet. But one thing is for sure, it will be a new one.
Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
RE: A new flamenco guitar vs used fl... (in reply to Stu)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Stu that rasgueado that Dennis does... right at the start.. where he goes up and down the fret board. does that actually make any audible dfifference or is it a fashionable flourish from those older times?
My first sight of Sabicas playing was at after hours juergas at the club Zambra in Manhattan, February-April 1962. I don’t remember him doing the up along the fretboard bit, but that was a pretty long time ago. I do remember seeing him do it on stage later on. I suppose that’s where Koster picked it up.
For even later public solo performances Sabicas would sometimes adopt what looked like classical. position, with a footstool, left knee hiked up pretty high. Funny thing was, if you watched closely, the upper bout almost never touched his left knee.
Last time I saw Sabicas was in 1965. He used the old school position: lower bout on right thigh, instrument supported entirely by the weight of the right upper arm.
For me, Sabicas didn’t need to “sell” with stagecraft. I loved his compositions, and I was astonished by his technique. He was never in a hurry.
When I was starting out in flamenco in 1959 your guitar had to be a spruce/cypress blanca with pegs. You had to use the old school postion. What you had to learn was to relax and trust just the weight of the right upper arm. If you squeezed too hard you cut off the blood circulation, resulting in paralysis. Or if you were too loose, you ended up holding up the guitar with your left hand, messing up your fingering.
Eddie Freeman used to test the stability of his students’ positions by laying hold of the neck and trying to take away the guitar.
To be a flamenco you had to be a tough guy, in contrast to the limp wristed classical sissies.
In my usual role as nonconformist, I played both. I was just careful for whom I played what, as I had done with my Great Maestro classical trumpet teacher and orchestra pals, and with my jazz and swing pals.
RE: A new flamenco guitar vs used fl... (in reply to Arash)
quote:
just change the strings after a while and any "mellow" guitar becomes "brand new", tinny and sharp
Haha. That might be a dirty trick pulled by guitar shops and sellers of any guitar. Anyhow I believe there's a little truth behind the theory of mellow flamenco guitars.
RE: A new flamenco guitar vs used fl... (in reply to Mark2)
quote:
Would you have laughed at Sabicas? Cause that's where he learned it. Do you have any respect for the maestros that created the career "flamenco guitar soloist"?
I'm not laughing at his old school ras. Just read the quote above. It's about doing ras up and down the fretboard. All flamenco right hand techniques are laid out nicely for us. There are reasons why they have to be executed in a certain way. Misusing them shows that one has no respect for the art of playing flamenco guitar. Mr. Koster can do it in private at home in front of his friends and family. But not in public on youtube.
Posts: 1871
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco
RE: A new flamenco guitar vs used fl... (in reply to devilhand)
Oh boy.....Sabicas did the ras up and down the fretboard. I saw him do it. Read Richard's post above-he saw him do it too. Other soloists in that era did it as well.
Another thing guitarists of that era did was to cross the bass strings to create a snare drum effect. Doubt many people do that today either.
To understand flamenco guitar, it's helpful to have some historical context. When you've studied some Sabicas, Ricardo, Ramon, and then later Paco, it becomes clear what the base of the style is.
If you don't have the patience for that, you might want to look into Gerardo Nunez' Encuentro video.
Would you have laughed at Sabicas? Cause that's where he learned it. Do you have any respect for the maestros that created the career "flamenco guitar soloist"?
I'm not laughing at his old school ras. Just read the quote above. It's about doing ras up and down the fretboard. All flamenco right hand techniques are laid out nicely for us. There are reasons why they have to be executed in a certain way. Misusing them shows that one has no respect for the art of playing flamenco guitar. Mr. Koster can do it in private at home in front of his friends and family. But not in public on youtube.
RE: A new flamenco guitar vs used fl... (in reply to devilhand)
quote:
I'm not laughing at his old school ras. Just read the quote above. It's about doing ras up and down the fretboard. All flamenco right hand techniques are laid out nicely for us. There are reasons why they have to be executed in a certain way. Misusing them shows that one has no respect for the art of playing flamenco guitar. Mr. Koster can do it in private at home in front of his friends and family. But not in public on youtube.
Sometimes I wish there was a well-filled bong near you, and that you would take advantage of its proximity.
Posts: 2526
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England
RE: A new flamenco guitar vs used fl... (in reply to JasonM)
quote:
Please don’t be that guy Stu.
ha! which guy? the one who encorporates that flambouyant ras into my playing? I don't think so.
but also, I have nothing but respect for sabicas and koster. I was just curious about it as I've seen it plenty and always wondered about it. Thanks for the stories and intel fellows.
quote:
Misusing them shows that one has no respect for the art of playing flamenco guitar. Mr. Koster can do it in private at home in front of his friends and family. But not in public on youtube.
More gold! hehehe
Been playing five mins and you're suddenly judge and jury on a player like koster!?
I'd love to tell you to talk less and read/listen more but then we'd have less fun right.
quote:
Sometimes I wish there was a well-filled bong near you, and that you would take advantage of its proximity.
RE: A new flamenco guitar vs used fl... (in reply to devilhand)
quote:
I'm not laughing at his old school ras. Just read the quote above. It's about doing ras up and down the fretboard. All flamenco right hand techniques are laid out nicely for us. There are reasons why they have to be executed in a certain way. Misusing them shows that one has no respect for the art of playing flamenco guitar. Mr. Koster can do it in private at home in front of his friends and family. But not in public on youtube.
Really bad ideas here:
First rasgueado is very personal and there are no rules or groups of players or a school to say who’s right and who’s wrong. That’s a bunch of bunk. Koster is not misusing anything, he’s playing as he personally wants to play and there’s not one thing wrong with that.
Second on the topic of rasgueado being personal, many artists have personal rasgueado that they employ. Today students and other pros watch like hawks to learn how the other guitarist is playing that personal mechanismo. The case of my late friend Ben Woods comes to mind, he had a ‘rasgeo personal’ that you couldn’t copy and he didn’t stay at home and play it front of the mirror, he played it in public and made a living with it.
You magnanimous twit.
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Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
RE: A new flamenco guitar vs used fl... (in reply to estebanana)
quote:
ORIGINAL: estebanana
quote:
ORIGINAL: Devilhand I'm not laughing at his old school ras. Just read the quote above. It's about doing ras up and down the fretboard. All flamenco right hand techniques are laid out nicely for us. There are reasons why they have to be executed in a certain way. Misusing them shows that one has no respect for the art of playing flamenco guitar. Mr. Koster can do it in private at home in front of his friends and family. But not in public on youtube.
Really bad ideas here:
First rasgueado is very personal and there are no rules or groups of players or a school to say who’s right and who’s wrong. That’s a bunch of bunk. Koster is not misusing anything, he’s playing as he personally wants to play and there’s not one thing wrong with that.
Second on the topic of rasgueado being personal, many artists have personal rasgueado that they employ. Today students and other pros watch like hawks to learn how the other guitarist is playing that personal mechanismo. The case of my late friend Ben Woods comes to mind, he had a ‘rasgeo personal’ that you couldn’t copy and he didn’t stay at home and play it front of the mirror, he played it in public and made a living with it.
You magnanimous twit.
Take a look at Richard Brune’s rasgueado here—slow it down if necessary. I was fortunate enough to spend an afternoon at Richard’s shop, playing his fantastic collection of instruments. There was much more playing by Richard than by me. He was employed as a professional player at Manolo Carocol’s tablao “El Rincon de Goya” in Mexico City. There is not any question whatsoever about his complete respect for all aspects of flamenco, especially the guitar.
Note the old school position.
After a while Richard noticed me looking at his rasgueado. He smiled and said that being self taught, it. was the way he started out, and with practice he managed to get it to work OK. If I hadn’t been sitting three feet away from him I never would have noticed his i-m-a rasgueado (sometimes i-m-a-q, it looks like).
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Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: A new flamenco guitar vs used fl... (in reply to Richard Jernigan)
The first guy who plays for Gordito (3:30) uses the backwards rasgueado too.
About Devilhand’s troll comments, I think we can pretty much not be surprised at this point by them? As he learns, he will gradually replace his ridiculous criticisms of various players with a deeper understanding and taste (hopefully).
RE: A new flamenco guitar vs used fl... (in reply to Ricardo)
It's about ONLY ras up and down the fretboard. I'm not talking about individual ras variations mii, amii, aii or ima which is shown in the 1st rito video above. All versions are fine.
Sabicas right hand technique was not authentic anymore. I don't know how long he was away from Spain? 50 or 60 years? He uses other non flamenco techniques in Malaguena video too. Look at what he does at 1:16. Sorry it's not right hand flamenco technique. Sabicas knew what he was doing. Demonstrated little bit showmanship as mark2 mentioned. So true what David Serva told estebanana about Sabicas "Everyone has to make a living somehow.”
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Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
RE: A new flamenco guitar vs used fl... (in reply to Mark2)
quote:
A lot of soloists from that era did that little bit of showmanship, my teacher Mariano Cordoba included. Also the endless ligados while holding up the right hand so everyone could see you were "PLAYING ONE HANDED!!!"
Whatever one may think of Carlos Montoya, he was a great showman from that era. He introduced a lot of us to the solo flamenco guitar. I first attended a performance in Phoenix, Arizona in 1960. He performed the "endless ligado" one-handed as described by Mark 2. He also performed a "Saeta" by crossing the fifth string over the sixth, holding them in that position with the left hand, and with his right hand performing a modified rasgueo that had the tempo of a snare drum. Along with the harmonics on the trebles, it was a pretty good approximation of the music accompanying the Easter procession in Seville.
His extended tremolos were mesmerizing as well. The thing about Montoya is he could actually play flamenco well and in compas, and in his early years played for some fine dancers such as La Argentinita, but he chose to throw out the rules for the effect his playing had on the (then) relatively unsophisticated audience (including me) during his solo performances.
Another showman was Manitas de Plata. Manitas knew how to play an audience for sure. My good friend Paco de Malaga once told me that when Manitas was performing, he would begin by sitting still, guitar poised, and silently looking at a point at the back of the auditorium. He would then suddenly begin playing with violent passion, as if his muse had just inspired him. It was all hokey, of course, but the audience thought they were witnessing the "primitive," inspired gypsy they imagined a flamenco guitarist to be.
I actually kind of liked Manitas. I am just speculating here, but I imagine he did not take his charisma and showmanship too seriously, and he probably knew he was not a first-rate flamenco guitarist. But he has a certain appeal that some con-men have when they good-naturedly know that you can see through them. At least I would like to think of him in that way.
Manitas died on 5 November 2014, and his obituary in the Washington Post quoted Brigitte Bardot, in an interview with Agence France Presse, as saying, "Manitas carried with him all the joie de vivre and carefree attitude of my youth.” Not a bad way to be remembered by such as la Bardot.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
RE: A new flamenco guitar vs used fl... (in reply to estebanana)
quote:
The case of my late friend Ben Woods comes to mind, he had a ‘rasgeo personal’ that you couldn’t copy and he didn’t stay at home and play it front of the mirror, he played it in public and made a living with it.
Posts: 1871
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco
RE: A new flamenco guitar vs used fl... (in reply to BarkellWH)
I saw Carlos perform, and am aware of his history of playing for dance-he was one of the top guys in his time. He did do all the things you mentioned, and all of those things were part of the presentation of some of the top flamenco guitarists of the time.
I was introduced to flamenco by a record called "Giants of Flamenco" which featured Carlos and Sabicas. I bought the vinyl in the 70's. Sabicas played a rondena that started with the sound of an orchestra, then after it faded, you hear the sound of a rooster crowing, then Sabicas plays a rondena chord. The rooster was very flamenco.......It was the first flamenco piece I transcribed, and even today I still love the tune.
quote:
ORIGINAL: BarkellWH
quote:
A lot of soloists from that era did that little bit of showmanship, my teacher Mariano Cordoba included. Also the endless ligados while holding up the right hand so everyone could see you were "PLAYING ONE HANDED!!!"
Whatever one may think of Carlos Montoya, he was a great showman from that era. He introduced a lot of us to the solo flamenco guitar. I first attended a performance in Phoenix, Arizona in 1960. He performed the "endless ligado" one-handed as described by Mark 2. He also performed a "Saeta" by crossing the fifth string over the sixth, holding them in that position with the left hand, and with his right hand performing a modified rasgueo that had the tempo of a snare drum. Along with the harmonics on the trebles, it was a pretty good approximation of the music accompanying the Easter procession in Seville.
His extended tremolos were mesmerizing as well. The thing about Montoya is he could actually play flamenco well and in compas, and in his early years played for some fine dancers such as La Argentinita, but he chose to throw out the rules for the effect his playing had on the (then) relatively unsophisticated audience (including me) during his solo performances.
Another showman was Manitas de Plata. Manitas knew how to play an audience for sure. My good friend Paco de Malaga once told me that when Manitas was performing, he would begin by sitting still, guitar poised, and silently looking at a point at the back of the auditorium. He would then suddenly begin playing with violent passion, as if his muse had just inspired him. It was all hokey, of course, but the audience thought they were witnessing the "primitive," inspired gypsy they imagined a flamenco guitarist to be.
I actually kind of liked Manitas. I am just speculating here, but I imagine he did not take his charisma and showmanship too seriously, and he probably knew he was not a first-rate flamenco guitarist. But he has a certain appeal that some con-men have when they good-naturedly know that you can see through them. At least I would like to think of him in that way.
Manitas died on 5 November 2014, and his obituary in the Washington Post quoted Brigitte Bardot, in an interview with Agence France Presse, as saying, "Manitas carried with him all the joie de vivre and carefree attitude of my youth.” Not a bad way to be remembered by such as la Bardot.
Posts: 1871
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco
RE: A new flamenco guitar vs used fl... (in reply to devilhand)
So artificial harmonics no bueno in flamenco? Says who? I thought I saw Jose el Cieglo using them recently. For a while I thought you might really be Fred Sanford AKA JM, trolling us hard. But at this point I wouldn't bet money on it. Where are you from and how old are you? I think that info might help some of us make sense of some of your rather bizzare claims about flamenco.
Me: 64 years old, born and raised in San Francisco.
quote:
ORIGINAL: devilhand
It's about ONLY ras up and down the fretboard. I'm not talking about individual ras variations mii, amii, aii or ima which is shown in the 1st rito video above. All versions are fine.
Sabicas right hand technique was not authentic anymore. I don't know how long he was away from Spain? 50 or 60 years? He uses other non flamenco techniques in Malaguena video too. Look at what he does at 1:16. Sorry it's not right hand flamenco technique. Sabicas knew what he was doing. Demonstrated little bit showmanship as mark2 mentioned. So true what David Serva told estebanana about Sabicas "Everyone has to make a living somehow.”
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