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Posts: 2526
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England
RE: What do you NOT like about flamenco? (in reply to TrickyFish)
haha. yeah agreed actually. although the feminine description doesnt seem relevant to me.
just having long nails and having them break in other activitites is annoying and then not being able to play full. although saying that... a broken nail can sometimes give you a fresha approach to your nail requirements. I have pretty much no thumb nail at the moment but its given my pulgar tech a new lease of life! strangey. Ill be growning back shorter!
However. still dont think this is 'something about flamenco i hate'
Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: What do you NOT like about flamenco? (in reply to devilhand)
quote:
Those who say no are lying.
It is no wonder that people struggle to understand various aspects of flamenco, when they don’t even have the open mind to appreciate ALL of its subtleties and traditions. Even still, I can’t say I “hate” even those people or their annoying opinions, it is all part of the package. Basically, I enjoy the fact that these people will eventually have an epiphany and open up to things they did not like at first, or, if they never do, they eventually lose interest and move on to other pursuits. To me, both situations are ideal, so no harm no foul.
RE: What do you NOT like about flamenco? (in reply to devilhand)
Although I have listened to flamenco on and off for about 50 years, I have only started studying it seriously for the past 12 months or so. I have found that the more I immerse myself in listening, reading, talking with my tutor and practising guitar, the more my opinions, likes and dislikes about flamenco aspects and artists change. This is positive for me. Every day is a school day. I am loving my flamenco journey and there is nothing I do not like about flamenco so far. Perhaps that will change too.
RE: What do you NOT like about flamenco? (in reply to TrickyFish)
quote:
I don’t like having feminine fingernails on my right hand
mine aren't feminine, they are superglue, they are hardcore! and my nails are not over long either. and because the superglue chips off and i fill in the gaps they are quite ugly, so really quite macho
Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
RE: What do you NOT like about flamenco? (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ricardo Basically, I enjoy the fact that these people will eventually have an epiphany and open up to things they did not like at first, or, if they never do, they eventually lose interest and move on to other pursuits. To me, both situations are ideal, so no harm no foul.
Like many Americans, and perhaps most of the rest of the Foro, I was attracted to flamenco by the guitar. I didn’t like cante. Although I grew up with Spanish as a second language the accent was often unintelligible. The vocal tone was not only unfamiliar, I was rather put off by it. When listening to a flamenco LP I usually skipped any occasional cante tracks.
Gradually the cante began to sink in though. I began to recognize the cante origins of some guitar falsetas. The cante’s bravura and passion began to resonate with many of my youthful attitudes. I stopped skipping the cante tracks. I went to Spain and heard Rafael Romero and Perico el del Lunar. While in the Army I hung out at Zambra in Manhattan to hear Sabicas at the after hours juergas. I was exposed to plenty of cante and baile.
Back in civilian life I started buying cante recordings.
I can’t point to an epiphany, but now when I listen to recordings, it’s far more likely to be cante than solo guitar. If I go to a show, a good dancer can really stir my emotions.
RE: What do you NOT like about flamenco? (in reply to devilhand)
I love everything about flamenco except smoking in confined spaces. It makes my beautiful hair stink and my lungs hurt and Moraito died because of smoking.
So smoking in flamenco, bad deal.
Flamenco can be played with fewer notes, it’s actually better that way.
Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: What do you NOT like about flamenco? (in reply to estebanana)
quote:
Flamenco can be played with fewer notes, it’s actually better that way.
Buleria necessarily has fewer notes per compas than a slow solea. The concept of too many notes in flamenco guitar playing is as preposterous as it was in the Mozart movie when the idiot music director criticized Mozart’s Opera.
RE: What do you NOT like about flamenco? (in reply to Ricardo)
😂
It’s amazing how people will say anything with the emperor standing by. Like that time trump changed the course of a storm e we it’s a magic marker, or said to inject bleach and no one wanted to correct him on the spot.
You can play as many notes as it takes to get your point across, but the tempo has to allow the notes to fit mathematically without chopping any of them into a the wrong divisions.
RE: What do you NOT like about flamenco? (in reply to mark indigo)
quote:
people telling me what I should or shouldn't like or think or do (i.e. listen to or play)
Who are these people? Dancers? I can imagine flamenco dancers can be annoying showing no respect for guitarists.
quote:
mine aren't feminine, they are superglue, they are hardcore! and my nails are not over long either. and because the superglue chips off and i fill in the gaps they are quite ugly, so really quite macho
Most of us here must have a nail shape with a ramp. I believe it's a clear turn-off for women.
RE: What do you NOT like about flamenco? (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
The concept of too many notes in flamenco guitar playing is as preposterous as it was in the Mozart movie when the idiot music director criticized Mozart’s Opera.
It's a movie. Want to hear what the experts say about Mozart's opera in real life.
RE: What do you NOT like about flamenco? (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
The concept of too many notes in flamenco guitar playing is as preposterous as it was in the Mozart movie when the idiot music director criticized Mozart’s Opera.
Indeed. While we famously saw that in the 1984 movie, it is an historical fact that Emperor Joseph II obliquely accused Mozart's Il Seraglio of having too many notes, to which Mozart replied "Just as much, Your Majesty, as is necessary."(*) The movie borrowed that for two scenes; the later one with the Emperor and Il Seraglio and an earlier one with the musical director regarding Idomeneo.
(*) The exchange and circumstances can be found in the earliest biography of Mozart published in 1798, only seven years after his death.
RE: What do you NOT like about flamenco? (in reply to devilhand)
quote:
quote:
people telling me what I should or shouldn't like or think or do (i.e. listen to or play)
Who are these people? Dancers? I can imagine flamenco dancers can be annoying showing no respect for guitarists.
quote:
mine aren't feminine, they are superglue, they are hardcore! and my nails are not over long either. and because the superglue chips off and i fill in the gaps they are quite ugly, so really quite macho
Most of us here must have a nail shape with a ramp. I believe it's a clear turn-off for women.
I think you have confirmed you are being deliberately provocative, as if we were not already aware. Also, your second comment is predicated on prejudice and generalist bollox.
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
RE: What do you NOT like about flamenco? (in reply to estebanana)
quote:
I love everything about flamenco except smoking in confined spaces. It makes my beautiful hair stink and my lungs hurt and Moraito died because of smoking. So smoking in flamenco, bad deal.
Is it ever a bad deal! Moraito, Camaron, Ramon de Algeciras and many others all died of lung cancer. There is something about smoking that appears to be ingrained in flamencos, at least the older generation. They even used a cigarette to properly measure the height of the strings at the bridge.
Personally, I have never smoked. Tried it a couple of times in high school, didn't like it, and never took it up. There was a time long ago when I could be around smokers and it didn't bother me, even though I didn't smoke. Some years ago, however, it really bothered me to be around cigarette smoke, and now I just don't want to be around anyone smoking. Something to avoid.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
RE: What do you NOT like about flamenco? (in reply to Stu)
I agree with the above posters regarding nails. It would be nice not to have to put on the silk, glue and strengthening powder although my wife does it for me at least. However, the metallic sound of a fresh pair of nails makes me happy.
I don’t like when the volume of palmas are ‘overpowering’. My preference is for just guitar and cante.
I don’t like how I can’t find a good posture that suits playing for a long time, and I don’t like how my right forearm tenses up too much :(
But I do like how flamenco is complicated for me to learn, like timing, technique and the percussive possibilities of the right hand. I started 3 years ago and it was kind of like relearning the guitar after 20 years of playing.
Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: What do you NOT like about flamenco? (in reply to BarkellWH)
quote:
Is it ever a bad deal! Moraito, Camaron, Ramon de Algeciras and many others all died of lung cancer.
Flamenco is not some special genre that has enforced a culture of smoke, drugs, and alcohol. The exact same vices are found all over the place. Next, there are many from that era and lifestyle (Cepero, Manuel Morao, etc,) who are still alive. We don’t know the autopsy reports on all the dead artists, so it is not totally fair to say they all died from the same disease. Of course heart attack is linked to smoking as well. However, since the world governments have tried to remove the right to smoke in public, we see many less smokers, but similar amounts if unhealthy heart attack cases. I have known non smokers that did cocaine often and got cancer (there are chemicals in there not healthy). Cocaine is common in flamenco but also everywhere else. I am not advocating smoking (I don’t do it myself) but drugs and alcohol are just as bad on health, and maybe diet is the worst. However, implying that smoking is a “thing” that must go along with flamenco, forcing people to admit like or don’t like, is not fair IMO. Like if I say I like flamenco because of the hot women….there are hot women all over the place, and many of them don’t tell me what I have to play on guitar!
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
RE: What do you NOT like about flamenco? (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
However, implying that smoking is a “thing” that must go along with flamenco, forcing people to admit like or don’t like, is not fair IMO.
I did not say that smoking was a "thing that must go along with flamenco," but many flamencos smoked, and smoking has killed many. I used the example of the cigarette used to measure the height of the string at the bridge to illustrate just how prevalent smoking was (is?). That other genres and activities have their share of smokers and druggies is true, but we are discussing flamenco here.
Even if many who smoked survived, in response to the question in this thread, I would not have enjoyed spending half the night in a haze of smoke. But that's just me. I'm not trying to cast aspersions on those who smoke, flamencos or otherwise. I just don't want to be around them.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
RE: What do you NOT like about flamenco? (in reply to devilhand)
quote:
quote:
people telling me what I should or shouldn't like or think or do (i.e. listen to or play)
Who are these people? Dancers? I can imagine flamenco dancers can be annoying showing no respect for guitarists.
dancers? no, I have no idea why you would have that idea .
and besides, some of my best friends are dancers
no, actually mostly other guitarists, beginners who already think they know everything, people who try to hide their own insecurity by trying to make everyone else feel bad, that kind of thing...
RE: What do you NOT like about flamenco? (in reply to Stu)
Great question, OP. I adore flamenco, no doubt. But, to stick to the topic, what grates on my sensibilities are the hysterics, especially in the cante: the screaming, explosive yelling, etc. It's too much for my taste, so I avoid most of it most of the time (though I have a soft spot for Manuel Molina). I wish that subtlety were appreciated more—e.g., in the vein of Adam del Monte, Luciano Ghosn, and, especially, Yerai Cortes: all excellent musicians who happen to have excellent taste as well.
Flamenco, as a genre, often suffers from a crisis of taste. It's often kitsch and hysterical. You can see it visually in the performances, how the guitarists present themselves, as well as, inevitably, musically. The kitschiest, most cringeworthy recent exposure, for me, was a piece from Juan Habichuela Nieto:
RE: What do you NOT like about flamenco? (in reply to bahen)
quote:
Flamenco, as a genre, often suffers from a crisis of taste. It's often kitsch and hysterical. You can see it visually in the performances, how the guitarists present themselves, as well as, inevitably, musically. The kitschiest, most cringeworthy recent exposure, for me, was a piece from Juan Habichuela Nieto:
The video seemed pretty straight forward to me. Just a family Juerga. Its a gypsy culture thing that we havn't grown up with. My gripe would be the musical choice with the harmonized female harmonized vocals, because its so over done and cliche at this point. I know its more "pop", But maybe I should eat my words because I don't get it not being a gypsy. Im just bored of it.
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
RE: What do you NOT like about flamenco? (in reply to BarkellWH)
After giving it some more thought, in addition to my dislike of those "popsters" who fraudulently pawn off their music as "flamenco" (nuevo or otherwise) I mentioned up-thread, I really dislike dancers (predominately male) who make exaggerated moves, hopping around and twirling their bodies as if they were trying out for the gymnastics team.
I have seen performances where they seem to deliberately twirl their head to the point where the audience can see the spray from the sweat off their hair form a halo. Those who dance in that manner lack subtlety and finesse, and their crude movements detract from what could be a good performance.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
RE: What do you NOT like about flamenco? (in reply to JasonM)
quote:
The video seemed pretty straight forward to me. Just a family Juerga.
It's not that for me. It's the cheesy camera angles, the bad (and tight) clothes, the awful decor, the low brow display of rosé in the kitchen, the lousy dancing, the lip syncing, etc etc ... and then the music *facepalm*. It's a crisis of taste, and it's widespread in flamenco—and this kitsch piece from Nieto is Exhibit A, for me.
Flamenco that doesn't suffer from the above can be hard to find. Here's something first-rate to lift your (and my) spirits:
RE: What do you NOT like about flamenco? (in reply to devilhand)
How patient you have to be before you taste the fruit, though how sweet it is once you do. Unlike other styles of guitar, even classical, flamenco is harder to pickup and can be very frustrating. One has to have to have a certain level of intuition as a lot of the rhythm and techniques are difficult to teach and learn, this must be why it’s best to watch and listen. Though because its so difficult its also why i love it, flamenco players are not grouped in with the standard guy that claims to be a musician or guitar player for the sake bragging rights, when all he does is strum a few chords at the campfire. I’m actually really frustrated by people to claim to be musicians when they pickup the instrument once a month, it cheapens the identity for those who dedicate their life to an intimate relationship with the music they create. With flamenco you are either all in or all out with daily practice, there is no in between.
RE: What do you NOT like about flamenco? (in reply to bahen)
quote:
Juan Habichuela Nieto
Even though they staged and made this video to be watched, I think the kind of event they show is more about participation in person. Not for being sat home alone and watching on video. It's not meant to be high art, more like everyone joining in together. Flamenco has that quality of being something everyday people can participate in. Some individuals take it to high art form, but those two can mix and participate together equally. It can be deep and it can also be light and playful. E.g. Saray la Pitita is a high level dancer and her husband Juan Habichuela Nieto a high level guitarist but they can still participate with family and friends. (And then in flamenco there have also always been very talented non-professionals, who one could only witness in person in a private setting.)
Saray la Pitita
For watching, this fiesta is more raw, less kitsch, but still nothing like actually being there.
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