RE: A riddle

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RE: A riddle

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edguerin

Posts: 1589
Joined: Dec. 24 2007
From: Siegburg, Alemania

RE: A riddle (in reply to RobF)

quote:

Hate to be the jerk about this fun stuff…but it is impossible to know that you have cut the constituents by milligrams of each differing pill PERFECTLY that you get, say, 100 milligrams of A (taken) and 100 milligrams of B (saved for tomorrow). So the wording has to be changed or the concept is that one EVENTUALLY has taken both pills by day two, yet it is impossible to know exactly what happened in terms of intake on day 1, but most likely some violation of the terms.

Another solution is to grind the pills in a mortar ...

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Ed

El aficionado solitario
Alemania

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 31 2022 16:54:46

edguerin

Posts: 1589
Joined: Dec. 24 2007
From: Siegburg, Alemania

RE: A riddle (in reply to edguerin)

Two new riddles:
1. Three logicians (per definition they never lie) enter a bar. Weird sort thinks the bartender, and asks "Each of you guys'll have a beer, right?"
Logician a) answers, "I haven't a clue"; b)answers "I'm not sure" and c) answers "Yeah!" with a broad grin. How many beers should the barkeeper serve?

2. You have 2 fuses (the old-fashioned type you light with a match or lighter), that can each burn for exactly 1 minute. You have a lighter. Is it possible to measure 45 sec. without bending, cutting or measuring the fuses?

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Ed

El aficionado solitario
Alemania

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 31 2022 17:06:58

kitarist

Posts: 1715
Joined: Dec. 4 2012

RE: A riddle (in reply to edguerin)

quote:

1. Three logicians (per definition they never lie) enter a bar. Weird sort thinks the bartender, and asks "Each of you guys'll have a beer, right?"
Logician a) answers, "I haven't a clue"; b)answers "I'm not sure" and c) answers "Yeah!" with a broad grin. How many beers should the barkeeper serve?

I think I got it, but it is a really nice one!

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Konstantin

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 31 2022 17:13:33

RobF

Posts: 1611
Joined: Aug. 24 2017

RE: A riddle (in reply to edguerin)

I think I have the fuse one covered. Pretty near certain I do. Good riddle.

*edit* at this point I’m certain I’ve got the fuse one. I think I have the logician one, too, but my answer is so silly, I can’t help but wonder if I’m wrong.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 31 2022 19:50:06

chester

Posts: 891
Joined: Oct. 29 2010

RE: A riddle (in reply to edguerin)

quote:

2. You have 2 fuses (the old-fashioned type you light with a match or lighter), that can each burn for exactly 1 minute. You have a lighter. Is it possible to measure 45 sec. without bending, cutting or measuring the fuses?

won't you be able to do it with just one?

or maybe my idea would fall under "measuring". i found another way (this time all by myself)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 1 2022 3:59:31

Ricardo

Posts: 14799
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: A riddle (in reply to edguerin)

quote:

ORIGINAL: edguerin

quote:

Hate to be the jerk about this fun stuff…but it is impossible to know that you have cut the constituents by milligrams of each differing pill PERFECTLY that you get, say, 100 milligrams of A (taken) and 100 milligrams of B (saved for tomorrow). So the wording has to be changed or the concept is that one EVENTUALLY has taken both pills by day two, yet it is impossible to know exactly what happened in terms of intake on day 1, but most likely some violation of the terms.

Another solution is to grind the pills in a mortar ...

If you can also weigh the powder and divide it equally…none of which is easy for a blind guy working alone.

Stop watch on your IPhone?

Two buckets full of H2O and one has a little grape juice in it. Bar tenders should not serve drinks ordered by a single individual if they are physically present. Confirmation is important. I have consumed many drinks indecisive customers have rejected that bar tenders didn’t want to dump (give it to the musician!).

(I know i am the worst buzz kill

)

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 1 2022 14:45:40

RobF

Posts: 1611
Joined: Aug. 24 2017

RE: A riddle (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

* There also appears to be a “trick” answer to this riddle, but it’s still going to be the same.

quote:

Two buckets full of H2O and one has a little grape juice in it. Bar tenders should not serve drinks ordered by a single individual if they are physically present. Confirmation is important. I have consumed many drinks indecisive customers have rejected that bar tenders didn’t want to dump (give it to the musician!).

That’ what I was alluding to with Kitarist’s wine riddle. Once the cup of wine is poured into the water bucket, would not both buckets now simply contain wine? Even though of different strengths? But that’s not the real answer, ofc.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 1 2022 15:53:04

kitarist

Posts: 1715
Joined: Dec. 4 2012

RE: A riddle (in reply to RobF)

quote:

Once the cup of wine is poured into the water bucket, would not both buckets now simply contain wine? Even though of different strengths?

OK but this is not it. Let's clarify and name the bucket initially containing just wine "bucket 1", and the bucket initially containing just water "bucket 2".

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Konstantin

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 1 2022 16:22:22

RobF

Posts: 1611
Joined: Aug. 24 2017

RE: A riddle (in reply to kitarist)

Agreed. I did verify my solution on the web and it was right, although I didn’t see the need to go as far as figuring out mathematical proofs, as I felt it was logically correct. The web explanation I saw used marbles instead of water and wine to make the proof more easily understood.

I considered the watered down wine idea to be a “trick” solution and didn’t use it.

*spoiler* my solution made use of the suggestion that the initial amount of liquid in the buckets didn’t matter, or at least was undefined. So, if each bucket initially contains exactly one cup, then what is the result? That gives the answer, which can then be verified by running some sample initial sizes (or trying to find corner cases) or taking the time to prove it mathematically.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 1 2022 17:08:34

edguerin

Posts: 1589
Joined: Dec. 24 2007
From: Siegburg, Alemania

RE: A riddle (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

Stop watch on your IPhone?

Two buckets full of H2O and one has a little grape juice in it. Bar tenders should not serve drinks ordered by a single individual if they are physically present. Confirmation is important. I have consumed many drinks indecisive customers have rejected that bar tenders didn’t want to dump (give it to the musician!).

Stop watch would be "measuring" .

Oh, and the customers aren't indecisive, they're logicians, so they know exactly what they want and what to say. So let's say the bar tender enjoys riddles ..

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Ed

El aficionado solitario
Alemania

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 1 2022 17:26:32

edguerin

Posts: 1589
Joined: Dec. 24 2007
From: Siegburg, Alemania

RE: A riddle (in reply to RobF)

The answer being logical can't be silly

So if it's "silly" in the true sense of the word, then it's wrong

Or you're so clever we mere mortals can't compete

So why not reveal your answer?

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Ed

El aficionado solitario
Alemania

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 1 2022 18:30:13

RobF

Posts: 1611
Joined: Aug. 24 2017

RE: A riddle (in reply to edguerin)

My silly answer was because logician ‘c’ had the money the other two wouldn’t know if they could have a beer unless he ponied up and agreed to buy the round. I’m pretty sure that’s not the expected answer.

*spoiler* I think the expected answer is based upon each logician knowing that they want a beer but not knowing what the others want. So A wants a beer but has no idea what B or C wants, so he must say what he did. B wants one and is also smart enough to realize that A does as well or he would have just said no, but he doesn’t know what C wants, so he replies he isn’t sure. C realizes that if neither A nor B answered no then they both want a beer. He does too, so he happily answers “yes!”.

Did I get it right?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 1 2022 18:42:04

kitarist

Posts: 1715
Joined: Dec. 4 2012

RE: A riddle (in reply to edguerin)

quote:

The answer being logical can't be silly

Yes, it is not silly, it is very logical and unambiguous. I shall reveal my solution below... beware of spoilers!

***SPOILER****

So, the question was if each of the three will get a beer - i.e. is this a true statement.

First says "no clue" - which means that he wants a beer himself, but does not yet have a clue from the others, hence no clue if each/beer is a true statement. The reason we know HE wants a beer is that, if he didn't, he would already know that each/beer cannot possibly be true regardless of what the others say, so he would not have answered 'no clue' - he would have said 'No."

Second then answers 'not sure'. Again this means he wants a beer himself - if he didn't, he would know the each/beer statement cannot possibly be true regardless of how Three answers. Also, he answers 'not sure' instead of like the First because he DOES have a clue - the answer from the First.

Third one then says 'Sure!" - clearly he wants a beer, and, based on the above, knows that each/beer is indeed a true statement.

So the bartender pours a beer for each.

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Konstantin

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 1 2022 18:45:25

RobF

Posts: 1611
Joined: Aug. 24 2017

RE: A riddle (in reply to kitarist)

Haha. I beat you to it!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 1 2022 18:46:35

kitarist

Posts: 1715
Joined: Dec. 4 2012

RE: A riddle (in reply to RobF)

quote:

ORIGINAL: RobF

Haha. I beat you to it!

Aarrrrghghhh...

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Konstantin

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 1 2022 18:47:20

kitarist

Posts: 1715
Joined: Dec. 4 2012

RE: A riddle (in reply to RobF)

quote:

gives the answer, which can then be verified by running some sample initial sizes (or trying to find corner cases) or taking the time to prove it mathematically.

Hmm, OK but the solution is simpler to explain than what this sounds like. I will post it in a bit.

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Konstantin

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 1 2022 18:55:08

RobF

Posts: 1611
Joined: Aug. 24 2017

RE: A riddle (in reply to kitarist)

I’ll post the fuse answer in a bit, too, if no one objects. I’m pretty sure I’ve nailed that one.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 1 2022 20:08:06

chester

Posts: 891
Joined: Oct. 29 2010

RE: A riddle (in reply to RobF)

light both fuses from one end
light the other end of one fuse
when the fuse with both ends burns out that means 30s have passed
the fuse that's left still has 30s to go so..
light its other end and it'll burn twice as fast (15s)

30 + 15 = ???

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 1 2022 21:00:06

kitarist

Posts: 1715
Joined: Dec. 4 2012

RE: A riddle [answer to the water/wi... (in reply to kitarist)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kitarist

quote:

gives the answer, which can then be verified by running some sample initial sizes (or trying to find corner cases) or taking the time to prove it mathematically.

Hmm, OK but the solution is simpler to explain than what this sounds like. I will post it in a bit.

Here it is:

The answer is - there is the same amount of water in bucket 1 (the "wine bucket") as the amount of wine in bucket 2 (the "water bucket"). The wild part is that it does not matter how well you mix the wine into the water, and it does not even matter if the two buckets are the same size.

The only important thing is to have transferred the same volume of liquid back and forth, so that the two buckets each end up with the same volume of stuff they started with.

Since the volume of liquid in the buckets is preserved before/after, whatever volume of water is now in the wine has displaced exactly the same volume of wine - and that exact volume of wine must now be in the water bucket.(*)

No need for math!

(*) We don't know how much that amount is, we just know it is the same amount.

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Konstantin

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 2 2022 0:49:03

RobF

Posts: 1611
Joined: Aug. 24 2017

RE: A riddle [answer to the water/wi... (in reply to kitarist)

Your explanation is much better than the one I found on the web.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 2 2022 1:13:14

Estevan

Posts: 1936
Joined: Dec. 20 2006
From: Torontolucía

RE: A riddle (in reply to edguerin)

quote:

Three logicians (per definition they never lie) enter a bar...

I got the same answer as Konstantin. But first of all, the riddle reminded me of this classic (which also influenced my solution):

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Me da igual. La música es música.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 2 2022 3:04:01

Ricardo

Posts: 14799
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: A riddle (in reply to edguerin)

quote:

Stop watch would be "measuring" .
Oh, and the customers aren't indecisive, they're logicians, so they know exactly what they want and what to say. So let's say the bar tender enjoys riddles ..

Ok, here we go.

The wording was “measuring THE FUSES”, time has nothing to do with THE FUSES, in fact why light them? You have to specifically rule out measuring TIME ALONE in the wording of the riddle.

Knowing what you want is not the same as not STATING what you want. The assumption has to be first revealed that they each actually WANT A BEER. At the brewery I gig at, one partner only drinks wine.

. Hence the assumptions in reality result in myself drinking extra beers.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 2 2022 10:44:09

Ricardo

Posts: 14799
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: A riddle [answer to the water/wi... (in reply to kitarist)

quote:

transferred the same volume of liquid back and forth,

Exactly why you must replace the word ‘Water” which implies H2O and is an ingredient in wine, with the word “liquid” which is not so specific since both water AND wine are LIQUIDS. As a thought experiment, change wine to “grape powder” devoid of water ingredient. Then you can see that mixing gives you equal traces of powder in both containers, and the water poured in the powder bucket replaces the missing powder.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 2 2022 11:00:58

Ricardo

Posts: 14799
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: A riddle (in reply to chester)

quote:

light both fuses from one end
light the other end of one fuse
when the fuse with both ends burns out that means 30s have passed
the fuse that's left still has 30s to go so..
light its other end and it'll burn twice as fast (15s)

30 + 15 = ???

Assuming the riddle stated you must use the fuses and not a time keeper, this is good, but you should clarify how exactly you get all three ends to ignite at precisely same moment. Every time i light multiple fuse ends, they each catch at a different moment, some several SECONDS off from each other. Also, you are not permitted to bend the fuses (only one lighter involved). Or the wording of the 45 seconds needs to change to +/- 5 seconds.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 2 2022 11:06:51

RobF

Posts: 1611
Joined: Aug. 24 2017

RE: A riddle (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

Knowing what you want is not the same as not STATING what you want. The assumption has to be first revealed that they each actually WANT A BEER.

How so? The riddle states each logician will answer the bartender’s question honestly. In each case, if the logician did not WANT a beer they simply would say so and honestly answer no. The third logician was able to answer in the affirmative as he was assured by the responses of the other two that they also had a hankering for the hops, as neither answered in the negative.

In other words, the riddle itself is the revelation. Each of the three answers leaves no doubt as to the desire of the respondent.

quote:

Every time i light multiple fuse ends, they each catch at a different moment, some several SECONDS off from each other. Also, you are not permitted to bend the fuses (only one lighter involved). Or the wording of the 45 seconds needs to change to +/- 5 seconds.

That’s because you insist on buying those cheap-assed orange factory fuses, Mr. Fickle Finger of Fastidiousness. You need to get some proper fuses and practice, practice, practice…

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 2 2022 12:37:02

kitarist

Posts: 1715
Joined: Dec. 4 2012

RE: A riddle [answer to the water/wi... (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

quote:

transferred the same volume of liquid back and forth,

Exactly why you must replace the word ‘Water” which implies H2O and is an ingredient in wine, with the word “liquid” which is not so specific since both water AND wine are LIQUIDS.

I don't get what the problem is with the original wording - both water and wine are conventionally liquids and the riddle revolves around transferring the same volume of stuff which is both times in liquid form - wine (at first) and water/wine mix (subsequently) - back and forth between buckets. I also don't see 1) how your thought experiment clarifies things in this case, and (2) what it (the thought experiment) has to do with you saying I should have replaced the word "water" with "liquid" in the original wording of the riddle.

Anyway, I thought it was a very clever riddle as it looks complicated and calculation-heavy, yet has a simple solution.

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Konstantin

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 2 2022 15:41:23

Ricardo

Posts: 14799
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: A riddle (in reply to RobF)

quote:

How so? The riddle states each logician will answer the bartender’s question honestly.

Never mind…I guess if nobody says “no” or a specific alternative, then “I will at least” is assumed.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 3 2022 10:52:49

Ricardo

Posts: 14799
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: A riddle [answer to the water/wi... (in reply to kitarist)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kitarist

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

quote:

transferred the same volume of liquid back and forth,

Exactly why you must replace the word ‘Water” which implies H2O and is an ingredient in wine, with the word “liquid” which is not so specific since both water AND wine are LIQUIDS.

I don't get what the problem is with the original wording - both water and wine are conventionally liquids and the riddle revolves around transferring the same volume of stuff which is both times in liquid form - wine (at first) and water/wine mix (subsequently) - back and forth between buckets. I also don't see 1) how your thought experiment clarifies things in this case, and (2) what it (the thought experiment) has to do with you saying I should have replaced the word "water" with "liquid" in the original wording of the riddle.

Anyway, I thought it was a very clever riddle as it looks complicated and calculation-heavy, yet has a simple solution.

It is a good one. Sorry i was running out the door yesterday. The thought experiment minuses the water from the wine contents already present to show the exchange is equal. The wording, without knowing the starting volumes (in fact let them be quite different) of each bucket is fine in that case. Red and white wine would be a good one too as some would be tricked to think the more pure mixture that starts leaves more behind than is replaced. But with WATER and wine liquid specifically, the statement should read “have we added more of X to bucket 1 or have we added more of Y to bucket 2”. But instead it states vaguely, “is there more water in the Wine bucket or…” without the starting volume comparison, it could very well be the case there is more water in the wine bucket depending on starting volumes, and this situation maintains regardless how much mixing you do. Still calling it a wine bucket until a point such that if you repeat the exchange, the resulting mixing “liquid” in both buckets is equally dilute with more being in the which ever bucket had more to begin with. Meanwhile the “water bucket” is never in any danger of having more “wine” in it, ever, than the other bucket. Perhaps the quantifier “both equally filled buckets” or “same sized buckets filled half way” or something eliminates the issue.

Also just realized the other problem was at the moment you poured the wine into the water bucket, it is no longer a “water bucket”…they become two wine buckets. But I guess you already addressed that with bucket 1 and 2 solution.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 3 2022 11:40:57

chester

Posts: 891
Joined: Oct. 29 2010

RE: A riddle [answer to the water/wi... (in reply to Ricardo)

by the time ricardo figures out the exact semantics the correct question would be "is there more water in the vinegar bucket?"

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 3 2022 22:30:09

JasonM

Posts: 2054
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: A riddle [answer to the water/wi... (in reply to chester)

Ok I cannot get the fuse one! I’ve thought about it for a while and I don’t see how it’s possible. My brain keeps going to some geometry solution.

- You have “a” lighter, meaning you cannot simultaneously light opposite ends.
- they must remain straight, so this leaves only a few possible configurations:
1. Light both fuses at a vertex. Like the start of both ends or intersect at a point along the lengths
2. Fuses in series , the end of one lights the start of the other
3 combination where fuses intersect at a point, but you light only one fuse and it burns to the intersection and then branches off in 2 or 3
3 Light one fuse only and count 45 seconds lol 😝

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 4 2022 15:09:34