RE: Neck thickness

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RE: Neck thickness

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Stu

Posts: 2535
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England

RE: Neck thickness (in reply to RobF)

Haha. Yes I'm not sure I feel better. But definitely made me chuckle! 😄

Jason, I've actually finished the neck carve. It has a taper.

I got it to exactly where I wanted. Then I went back and thought...I'm gonna tackle that saw cut. Then got myself into a pickle.

Haha. I like the compass idea rob. 😂

I also had a play around with some kind of inlay using a few of the left over rosette tiles.

Thanks Simon..I should post a few more progress pics on the progress thread I made. But might just be the finished thing.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 28 2022 10:02:55

Stu

Posts: 2535
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England

RE: Neck thickness (in reply to Stu)

Rob, Whats that guitar youve got lurking on the bench there next to the 'box of shame'? current build? wanna share some pics?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 28 2022 13:41:57

RobF

Posts: 1611
Joined: Aug. 24 2017

RE: Neck thickness (in reply to Stu)

That’s an older picture. I haven’t been very active the past year with making flamenco guitars, my time has been more taken up doing repairs and messing around with electrics. But I intend to get back at it pretty soon.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 28 2022 19:48:31

JasonM

Posts: 2055
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Neck thickness (in reply to Stu)

quote:

Jason, I've actually finished the neck carve. It has a taper.

I’m confused (not helping your situation!)

What I meant was: the lowest point of that dip at the heel is ~20.5 mm right? So that would be the thickest point of your neck at the heel - if you were to level things out and plane the wood down to the yellow line.

then if you were to taper from that point down to the nut end, it would be sub 20mm. Maybe like 18mm thickness at the nut. Is that right?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 29 2022 13:42:17

Stu

Posts: 2535
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England

RE: Neck thickness (in reply to JasonM)

Hey yes that's correct!
I'd be looking at 20mm/18mm

Maybe I misunderstood you originally. Sorry.

I'm feeling ok with it at the moment. Was panicking the other day but honestly just sharing about it on the internet really helps my mindset...even if I haven't actually solved it yet.

I mean no one close to me gives a hoot about making guitars so having an outlet here is great. Thanks all.

Think I'm gonna finish up everything else...Nut, fret leveling etc stings on and play the thing.

Then then reasses.

And also think about the finishing

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 29 2022 14:19:37

estebanana

Posts: 9352
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Neck thickness (in reply to Stu)

Stu,

This is what I’d say you should do. Don’t worry about looks. Cut a clean as possible as little as possible niche and glue in a patch of cedar going the same direction as the wood in the heel.

In my opinion 20 mm is too thin to risk. A slight flaw patch will save you an enormous headache later if that neck bends. And if you study old mid century Spanish work like Esteso and Santos occasionally you see ‘shoemaking’ fixes were a piece is carefully scarfed in somewhere. They also didn’t make particularly thin necks, which today might be influenced by the idea that thin electric necks are ‘fast’. A little meat on the neck is probably good for the sound.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 30 2022 12:10:58

constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1677
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: Neck thickness (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

if you study old mid century Spanish work like Esteso and Santos occasionally you see ‘shoemaking’ fixes were a piece is carefully scarfed in somewhere.

Hey, Stephen, that is so cool. Can you post some photos or links to photos of examples?

Whenever things aren't turning out absolutely cosmetically perfect (i.e., always), I like to think that there were lots of great instruments built where they didn't.

_____________________________

Ethan Deutsch
www.edluthier.com
www.facebook.com/ethandeutschguitars
www.youtube.com/marioamayaflamenco
I always have flamenco guitars available for sale.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 30 2022 16:57:16

Stu

Posts: 2535
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England

RE: Neck thickness (in reply to estebanana)

Stephen Thanks.

To be honest I was kinda expecting a few more responses like yours. But they never really came. I still really fell like thats the way for me for this particular build. I have an off cut of this neck from the end of the neck on other side of the heel so Im thinking itll be an ideal match.

thanks for chiming in.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 30 2022 21:23:02

estebanana

Posts: 9352
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Neck thickness (in reply to constructordeguitarras)

Ethan,

It’s kinda difficult to acquire a file of these kinds of things for a variety of reasons- how to search for it on the internet?
Dealers and collectors often don’t want to share that kind of stuff. I can ask around and see if anyone is willing to share any photos, but the photos that have been shared with me aren’t for public viewing because the people who own the instruments or the repairman who shared the information would like it to stay confidential.

But Eugene Clark back in the late 1990’s showed me a few things on guitars by Esteso, de la Chica, Santos, et al.

Especially during the Spanish civil war and those years it was difficult to get materials in Spain, Gene said they would save every scrap, so he showed me heel stacks in guitars from that time where you can tell they pieced it together with thin cedro scraps.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 1 2022 6:12:18

estebanana

Posts: 9352
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Neck thickness (in reply to Stu)

This is an example of what I was talking about.

“It’s the famous 1912 Manuel Ramírez/Santos used by Segovia for about 25 years of his career during the period when he became world famous. The guitar was originally made as an 11 string for Antonio Gimenez Manjon and then cut down and retopped as a 6 string which is how it was presented to Segovia in the anecdote he recounts in his autobiography. Clearly the neck was patched to augment its thickness. You can post this photo with attribution to me (I took it back in the ‘90’s when I studied this guitar at the Met and later published full size technical drawings including this photo in American Lutherie). In my opinion not a very elegant nor appealing solution, but obviously one that worked and held up under very demanding professional usage for over 25 years.”

Photo and quote courtesy of Richard Brune’

I think Stu could do much better himself, especially since he’s got an off cut of the same wood.

There’s a couple different ways to do it, the violin maker way.. more like a sound post patch, or cutting a flat bed with a 90 degree wall and butting a splice against the wall end grain to end grain.

I would opt for the later in this situation and then use scalpel or sharp needle to ‘erase’ the end grain to end grain joint by dragging it through perpendicular to the joint seam which creates artificial grain lines through the seam. I have done this very successfully on Cedro.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 2 2022 2:47:43

estebanana

Posts: 9352
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Neck thickness (in reply to Stu)

This is a neck I repaired in July 2022, a Japanese guitar from the 1970’s made very casually with Brazilian rosewood, which was under a clouded finish and mistaken for something else. I worked over the finish with Assilex abrasive very lightly to open it up, and wiped with alcohol, then French polished over it with super blonde shellac.

The neck dents required sanding, but luckily the deepest dent was on the upper side of the neck and I feathered it out skillfully enough to make it go away.

I opened the wood by scaping off as little original finish as possible, and used alcohol and steaming with a wet towel and soldering iron to raise the grain in the whole area. Even a dent will raise up a bit. Through feather sanding and grain raising, alternating carefully it wasn’t too hard to ‘pop sand’ the dent out without altering the neck profile.

Then I used a knife to incise new grain lines over the brownish scar at the bottom of the dent.

I think with a well patched in piece of the same wood as the heel you could work the joint seam more or less the same way and hide 50 to 80 % of the patch work by blending the grain lines.

The middle photo is the finished result of the grain line cutting.

Just an idea …

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 2 2022 3:09:17

estebanana

Posts: 9352
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Neck thickness (in reply to Stu)

Halfway French polished and fully finished

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 2 2022 3:13:34

Stu

Posts: 2535
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England

RE: Neck thickness (in reply to estebanana)

Awesome.thanks for sharing.

quote:

or cutting a flat bed with a 90 degree wall and butting a splice against the wall end grain to end grain.

Yeah I mean this is the only way my novice mind was thinking I should do it. Seems to make sense. I love the little tip about creating fake grain lines. Thanks.

Thanks for sharing the repair pictures you did. Smaller area but impossible to see with the polish. You've done a great job. I hope to achieve something half as good and I'll be happy. Encouraging stuff.

Cheers

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 2 2022 8:38:22

orsonw

Posts: 1934
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: Neck thickness (in reply to estebanana)

Thanks Stephen for sharing your knowledge and the photographs. I have no plans to ever make a guitar, but nonetheless I find the skill and expertise shared in your posts inspiring.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 2 2022 11:32:02

constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1677
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: Neck thickness (in reply to estebanana)

Your repair is awesome.

_____________________________

Ethan Deutsch
www.edluthier.com
www.facebook.com/ethandeutschguitars
www.youtube.com/marioamayaflamenco
I always have flamenco guitars available for sale.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 2 2022 13:24:00