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Why isn’t Javier Conde more popular?
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mark indigo
Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
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 RE: Why isn’t Javier Conde more po... (in reply to Pgh_flamenco)
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I read that Javier received standing ovations after each song at a concert in Europe. I know he performed in Japan, but I’m not aware of him concertizing in the US. He probably needs a manager and to tour relentlessly in Europe, the US and Japan. And to sell CD's (yeah, or memory sticks of mp3 or whatever) at the gigs - Flamenco artists rarely do that, promote their music at live shows, or offer any kind of merchandise. There are loads of indie bands who've never had a "hit single" who survive like a cottage industry touring and selling stuff...
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Original material probably would have been enough to help him overcome the lack of interest in his playing. Even so, Grisha has a lot of views on his channel, but he hasn’t written new songs. Might have been, but again, Grisha is based in the US, where there is maybe more of a market for virtuoso renditions of other known artists' work?
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It doesn’t seem like there are any singers who are popular enough to help a guitarist build a career in flamenco. There are no towering figures in the genre as there were years ago. I think in Spain that is probably the way to get known as a flamenco artist, and even outside Spain if you are known as an accompanist then there is a kind of mark of "authenticity" to that to give kudos to solo work... maybe, I'm kinda speculating here! 
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If Javier had engaged the English-speaking world on the internet would that have made a difference? maybe - I think it is probably all of these things. A couple of albums with known singers would look great on his CV. Then if he hired some singers and dancers and toured the "Javier Conde Dance Company" all around the world and sold a solo album of Sabicas and Paco covers and an album of original contemporary solos at the shows and backed that up with an English language/Spanish web presence he would be on to a winner! Oh, wait, he needs to publish a book/audio/video guitar method with volumes for beginners as well as for off-the-scale advanced too!
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Date Sep. 21 2022 14:26:02
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Ricardo
Posts: 14797
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: Why isn’t Javier Conde more po... (in reply to Pgh_flamenco)
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I hate to put this forward, because I don’t feel this way myself, but many people have this opinion of “chops versus feel”, and Javier fit into this typical category of a guy playing perfect recreations of classics with equal or BETTER technical execution…and people are left cold about the emotional aspects of the music that they normally get from the original versions. Again I don’t like that criticism but it would explain the situation.
Grisha, on the other hand, was criticized for the same, but in his case, especially as a foreigner, sparked controversy and debate. So the same type of criticism worked in favor of his popularity as he became a “controversial” figure in the genre. Javier remains as the “prodigy” that did not break through the early “copy the maestros first” stage of development, yet there is nothing there to “criticize”.
A further possibility is that in the early years of his appearance, the online situation involved his father often, and I can’t remember the details, but perhaps there were guitar deals gone wrong or some other such drama? It lingers in my mind as “poor Javier, he should be on his own doing his own thing”. I never forget him in Gerardo’s class 2006. As good as he was, he really wanted to work more on Cante accompaniment and Gerardo gave him that chance and he really was doing well. He did not like the advanced class of Gerardo and said to us “it was too hard” and dropped to the intermediate class (which is less of Gerardo’s music and more traditional material). We all played one after the other one night, and he was in danger of making us all look bad with his note for note “Doblen Campanas” of 1972….then Antonio Rey appeared and blasted us all with technique and duende. (Not including Gerardo himself who at the time played his traditional Solea Por buleria and made it clear who was the maestro of the gang).
I have no critiques of the guy’s playing of worth. For example the video of Nunez material first posted, I would not leave so much space between the phrases, but he is not “wrong” for doing that.
_____________________________
CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
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Date Sep. 21 2022 17:40:32
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Pgh_flamenco
Posts: 1506
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
From: Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania
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RE: Why isn’t Javier Conde more po... (in reply to Ricardo)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ricardo
I hate to put this forward, because I don’t feel this way myself, but many people have this opinion of “chops versus feel”, and Javier fit into this typical category of a guy playing perfect recreations of classics with equal or BETTER technical execution…and people are left cold about the emotional aspects of the music that they normally get from the original versions. Again I don’t like that criticism but it would explain the situation.
Grisha, on the other hand, was criticized for the same, but in his case, especially as a foreigner, sparked controversy and debate. So the same type of criticism worked in favor of his popularity as he became a “controversial” figure in the genre. Javier remains as the “prodigy” that did not break through the early “copy the maestros first” stage of development, yet there is nothing there to “criticize”.
A further possibility is that in the early years of his appearance, the online situation involved his father often, and I can’t remember the details, but perhaps there were guitar deals gone wrong or some other such drama? It lingers in my mind as “poor Javier, he should be on his own doing his own thing”. I never forget him in Gerardo’s class 2006. As good as he was, he really wanted to work more on Cante accompaniment and Gerardo gave him that chance and he really was doing well. He did not like the advanced class of Gerardo and said to us “it was too hard” and dropped to the intermediate class (which is less of Gerardo’s music and more traditional material). We all played one after the other one night, and he was in danger of making us all look bad with his note for note “Doblen Campanas” of 1972….then Antonio Rey appeared and blasted us all with technique and duende. (Not including Gerardo himself who at the time played his traditional Solea Por buleria and made it clear who was the maestro of the gang).
I have no critiques of the guy’s playing of worth. For example the video of Nunez material first posted, I would not leave so much space between the phrases, but he is not “wrong” for doing that.
I know you don’t like the common criticism regarding “too many notes,” etc. Whether you call it duende, soul or breathing life into music some people have this ability and others don’t. I think it’s often necessary to sacrifice technical prowess for the sake of melody and harmony. A few weeks ago I posted Gerardo performing Puente de los Alunados as a solo piece. This song requires intermediate level technique IMO and is well below Gerardo’s technical ability, but when it comes to melody and harmony it’s a masterpiece. Anyone who can write songs like this deserves to have a career. After all it’s the music, not the technique, that people enjoy.
IIRC Javier’s father used to sell his son’s guitars on eBay. Also, his father was often mentioned when Javier’s name came up.
I enjoyed Javier’s performance of Gerardo’s La Cartuja. Not many people can play on that level. It’s just a shame that his career appears to be withering on the vine.
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Date Sep. 21 2022 18:05:19
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trivium91
Posts: 208
Joined: Jan. 24 2022
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RE: Why isn’t Javier Conde more po... (in reply to Ricardo)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ricardo
I hate to put this forward, because I don’t feel this way myself, but many people have this opinion of “chops versus feel”, and Javier fit into this typical category of a guy playing perfect recreations of classics with equal or BETTER technical execution…and people are left cold about the emotional aspects of the music that they normally get from the original versions. Again I don’t like that criticism but it would explain the situation.
Grisha, on the other hand, was criticized for the same, but in his case, especially as a foreigner, sparked controversy and debate. So the same type of criticism worked in favor of his popularity as he became a “controversial” figure in the genre. Javier remains as the “prodigy” that did not break through the early “copy the maestros first” stage of development, yet there is nothing there to “criticize”.
A further possibility is that in the early years of his appearance, the online situation involved his father often, and I can’t remember the details, but perhaps there were guitar deals gone wrong or some other such drama? It lingers in my mind as “poor Javier, he should be on his own doing his own thing”. I never forget him in Gerardo’s class 2006. As good as he was, he really wanted to work more on Cante accompaniment and Gerardo gave him that chance and he really was doing well. He did not like the advanced class of Gerardo and said to us “it was too hard” and dropped to the intermediate class (which is less of Gerardo’s music and more traditional material). We all played one after the other one night, and he was in danger of making us all look bad with his note for note “Doblen Campanas” of 1972….then Antonio Rey appeared and blasted us all with technique and duende. (Not including Gerardo himself who at the time played his traditional Solea Por buleria and made it clear who was the maestro of the gang).
I have no critiques of the guy’s playing of worth. For example the video of Nunez material first posted, I would not leave so much space between the phrases, but he is not “wrong” for doing that.
Late to the party but I saw the post and was interested. What you said was also my first feeling, robotic playing that does not move the audience, they do not feel anymore enlightened after watching a performance. Great players yes, but not the best performers, as harsh or critical as it sounds. There is no emotion or expression to move the audience. Emotions are irrational, in the context of music they activate the limbic portion of the brain which bypasses logic. Logically these players are awesome but they dont speak to the portion of the brain that draw people to come back for more without knowing why. Its the same reason Apple is so successful, their marketing speaks directly to the limbic brain which bypasses logic. Logically apple sells computers just like any other computer company, yet they are far more successful because of their clever marketing and ability to tap into the portion of the brain that causes people to drop $1500 on the newest iDevice without thinking.
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Date Sep. 23 2022 16:00:46
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trivium91
Posts: 208
Joined: Jan. 24 2022
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RE: Why isn’t Javier Conde more po... (in reply to Mark2)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mark2
It's so subjective. I was walking out of a Vicente Amigo concert and two guys were discussing it, saying he had incredible technique but no feeling. I just smiled to myself.....
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ORIGINAL: trivium91
Late to the party but I saw the post and was interested. What you said was also my first feeling, robotic playing that does not move the audience, they do not feel anymore enlightened after watching a performance. Great players yes, but not the best performers, as harsh or critical as it sounds. There is no emotion or expression to move the audience. Emotions are irrational, in the context of music they activate the limbic portion of the brain which bypasses logic. Logically these players are awesome but they dont speak to the portion of the brain that draw people to come back for more without knowing why. Its the same reason Apple is so successful, their marketing speaks directly to the limbic brain which bypasses logic. Logically apple sells computers just like any other computer company, yet they are far more successful because of their clever marketing and ability to tap into the portion of the brain that causes people to drop $1500 on the newest iDevice without thinking.
Vicente Amigo….no feeling! Blasphemy! Lol you are likely right though about it being subjective but also perhaps some people are poor judges of character and others better at it. Yes definitely it’s subjective just the same as peoples taste in music, otherwise Paco would have been filthy rich like Taylor Swift. At any rate when i was a younging my classical guitar teacher at the time accused me of playing robotically, though not as bad as my older brother. I didnt really truly understand what it meant at the time, or really what it felt like to be enlightened by creating music for that matter so it was true in a sense.
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Date Sep. 23 2022 17:43:24
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Mark2
Posts: 1868
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco
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RE: Why isn’t Javier Conde more po... (in reply to trivium91)
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A small part of me wanted to admonish them, but what's the point? You like what you like.
When I was in college I auditioned for the jazz band. It was super competitive. Like 50 guitarists trying for three spots. First time I pulled out a strat and got thrown out. Next semester I brought a 60.00 steel string and luck was with me. The audition tune was Joy Spring and I knew it well. I got the third spot and pretty much sucked at it all semester-my reading wasn't where it needed to be, and I was not a jazz guy, just a young musician interested in the challenge of playing difficult music.
I decided to test the limits of my good fortune by auditioning for classical guitar lessons. They only had one teacher, and she could only take a few students. She roasted me, saying my teacher should be taken out and QUIETLY shot. Since I had not studied with a classical guitar teacher I assumed she thought I should just end it all. Not a cheery bunch those classical players.......
quote:
ORIGINAL: trivium91
quote:
ORIGINAL: Mark2
It's so subjective. I was walking out of a Vicente Amigo concert and two guys were discussing it, saying he had incredible technique but no feeling. I just smiled to myself.....
quote:
ORIGINAL: trivium91
Late to the party but I saw the post and was interested. What you said was also my first feeling, robotic playing that does not move the audience, they do not feel anymore enlightened after watching a performance. Great players yes, but not the best performers, as harsh or critical as it sounds. There is no emotion or expression to move the audience. Emotions are irrational, in the context of music they activate the limbic portion of the brain which bypasses logic. Logically these players are awesome but they dont speak to the portion of the brain that draw people to come back for more without knowing why. Its the same reason Apple is so successful, their marketing speaks directly to the limbic brain which bypasses logic. Logically apple sells computers just like any other computer company, yet they are far more successful because of their clever marketing and ability to tap into the portion of the brain that causes people to drop $1500 on the newest iDevice without thinking.
Vicente Amigo….no feeling! Blasphemy! Lol you are likely right though about it being subjective but also perhaps some people are poor judges of character and others better at it. Yes definitely it’s subjective just the same as peoples taste in music, otherwise Paco would have been filthy rich like Taylor Swift. At any rate when i was a younging my classical guitar teacher at the time accused me of playing robotically, though not as bad as my older brother. I didnt really truly understand what it meant at the time, or really what it felt like to be enlightened by creating music for that matter so it was true in a sense.
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Date Sep. 23 2022 21:05:53
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Ricardo
Posts: 14797
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: Why isn’t Javier Conde more po... (in reply to trivium91)
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quote:
otherwise Paco would have been filthy rich like Taylor Swift.
Paco had two homes, in Mexico Playa de Carmen on the beach and in Madrid, then he bought a freakin Castle. A friend in charge of concert series told me the flamenco players fees. Nunez group, $7000, $5000 for the trio. Vicente, $10,000, Tomatito $20,000, and Paco….ONE MILLION DOLLARS, for a 10 show minimum. If they could only line up 8 or 9 spots for a tour of USA, he still charged $1 million, which the tour manager would have to figure out how to work it per each venue. This is why we see long stretches where Paco would not come to USA.
So, not sure what “filthy” means but Paco was doing very well there by the end of it all.
_____________________________
CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
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Date Sep. 24 2022 15:19:45
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trivium91
Posts: 208
Joined: Jan. 24 2022
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RE: Why isn’t Javier Conde more po... (in reply to Ricardo)
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Oh I didn’t know this, I just randomly looked up what his estimated net worth was online and it was only like 1.5 Million. I guess those are not that accurate. https://allfamousbirthday.com/paco-lucia/
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ricardo
quote:
otherwise Paco would have been filthy rich like Taylor Swift.
Paco had two homes, in Mexico Playa de Carmen on the beach and in Madrid, then he bought a freakin Castle. A friend in charge of concert series told me the flamenco players fees. Nunez group, $7000, $5000 for the trio. Vicente, $10,000, Tomatito $20,000, and Paco….ONE MILLION DOLLARS, for a 10 show minimum. If they could only line up 8 or 9 spots for a tour of USA, he still charged $1 million, which the tour manager would have to figure out how to work it per each venue. This is why we see long stretches where Paco would not come to USA.
So, not sure what “filthy” means but Paco was doing very well there by the end of it all.
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Date Sep. 27 2022 17:39:56
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