Abanico PMP

Costs are rising and times are tough.
Please consider a donation to keep this
place going.

Welcome to one of the most active flamenco sites on the Internet. Guests can read most posts but if you want to participate click here to register.

This site is dedicated to the memory of Paco de Lucía, Ron Mitchell, Guy Williams, Linda Elvira, Philip John Lee, Craig Eros, Ben Woods, David Serva and Tom Blackshear who went ahead of us.

We receive 12,200 visitors a month from 200 countries and 1.7 million page impressions a year. To advertise on this site please contact us.

Abanico PMP

You are logged in as Guest

Users viewing this topic: none

Printable Version

All Forums >>Discussions >>General >>

Page: [1]

Message

<< Newer Topic Older Topic >>

orsonw

Posts: 1934
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

Abanico PMP

P M(A) P abanico question.

For fast speeds e.g. for 6 notes/beat for alegrias 165+bpm. I notice those that do it well have their index finger flexed the whole time and nearly all also have the little finger extended.

I do it with my index straight but only get to 150bpm. I have been experimenting with flexing my index and there is some more speed. Seems the hand is compact more balanced. I may have to relearn this way? Grateful for other thoughts/experience?

Photos below are:
Antonio Rey
Roman Vicente
Ricardo, Tomatito, Luciano Ghosn

First ten seconds of this video gives a good view of Antonio Rey.

Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

Attachment (1)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 6 2022 20:12:36

kitarist

Posts: 1715
Joined: Dec. 4 2012

RE: Abanico PMP (in reply to orsonw)

quote:

P M(A) P abanico question.

For fast speeds e.g. for 6 notes/beat for alegrias 165+bpm. [..]

I do it with my index straight but only get to 150bpm.

A bit confused here - so if 6 notes per 'beat', do you mean that you currently do 2 abanicos per click (2 x pmp) at 150 clicks/minute with straight index finger? Or just one abanico per click?

As to the actual question - I wonder if it has something to do with instinctively adjusting to minimize rotational inertia (moment of inertia) around the long axis through the forearm. Presumably minimizing it will make it easier to reverse directions, thus making abanico faster?

_____________________________

Konstantin

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 6 2022 20:56:42

orsonw

Posts: 1934
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: Abanico PMP (in reply to kitarist)

quote:

6 notes per 'beat', do you mean that you currently do 2 abanicos per click (2 x pmp) at 150 clicks/minute

Yes, 2 x pmp per beat at 150bpm is my maximum speed.

I just has a re-analysis. I am using MA together. I am striking with A more than M. Focusing on M tends to flex the I. This seems to make it easier to go faster, but I'm going to have to work on it because now the strokes are not even in volume or time.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 6 2022 21:33:09

kitarist

Posts: 1715
Joined: Dec. 4 2012

RE: Abanico PMP (in reply to orsonw)

quote:

Yes, 2 x pmp per beat at 150bpm is my maximum speed.

Damn, that's fast already!

_____________________________

Konstantin

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 6 2022 22:33:02

orsonw

Posts: 1934
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: Abanico PMP (in reply to kitarist)

quote:

Damn, that's fast already!

Not fast enough! For baile alegrias at 165+bpm. Also for solea, even though dancers like a slow 70-80bpm, being able to 4 x pmp per beat at 80bpm is useful.

Also sometimes useful to have a fast smooth abanico for closing tarantas, maleguenas for cante.

I prefer PAI at slower speeds but sometimes PMP just has the right feeling. A 2x PMP per beat at 160+bpm seems possible with work. (Compared to a useable and reliable 16th note picado at 160bpm, which still seems like a dream for me and maybe one I will never reach!)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 6 2022 22:41:59

orsonw

Posts: 1934
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: Abanico PMP (in reply to orsonw)

Here's Chicuelo. He also has his index flexed, perhaps not a tightly as Antonio rey.

Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

Attachment (1)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 7 2022 8:59:14

Ricardo

Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Abanico PMP (in reply to orsonw)

Here I am doing at 160 bpm at 1:10. You can slow it down and watch. The index just pulls in case you want to use it, it doesn’t affect the speed.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 7 2022 11:46:30

orsonw

Posts: 1934
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: Abanico PMP (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

Here I am doing at 160 bpm at 1:10. You can slow it down and watch. The index just pulls in case you want to use it, it doesn’t affect the speed.

Thanks, your video here is a bit blurry slowed down.

This video of you is clear. I got the shot of you with flexed index/extended little finger in my OP (bottom left) from this video at 2.00.

Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

Attachment (2)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 7 2022 14:16:49

orsonw

Posts: 1934
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: Abanico PMP (in reply to orsonw)

Jose Tanaka's video is clearer. He also has his index flexed and little finger extended the whole time. It seems the flexed index finger is common amongst players with good PMP abanico, I haven't yet found someone not doing it?

Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 7 2022 14:22:53

Ricardo

Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Abanico PMP (in reply to orsonw)

The main thing is to get the wrist relaxed and moving up and down (as 16th notes) at the tempo you need, such that you can keep it going indefinitely with UP STROKE on the beat. When you do that you need to keep the hand closed pretty much. As you open the hand the thumb sticks out and the pinky too, and the inner fingers (m or ma or a, whatever you like) starts to synchronize with the thumb to create the triplet but the wrist speed stays the same. A good exercise is to move between straight 16ths and the triplets without stopping.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 9 2022 12:20:37

mark indigo

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007

RE: Abanico PMP (in reply to orsonw)

quote:

I notice those that do it well have their index finger flexed the whole time and nearly all also have the little finger extended.

that's odd, i never even noticed before, but I let my index just sort of hang and flap around in a "relaxed" sort of way, but I have been experimenting with keeping it flexed the last few days and it feels really different, and I admit I am a bit surprised that the rotation action feels more free, fluid and yes, I think it's a bit faster, so thanks for that!