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RE: Saturday Night in San Francisco (in reply to JasonM)
Would you say Paco’s beginning of his solo in Spain had some mistakes- Or rather maybe it just wasn’t a good choice in the moment of improving. It could just be that he refined things a lot more in future concerts. I just picture him having a big migraine here!
Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Saturday Night in San Francisco (in reply to JasonM)
quote:
ORIGINAL: JasonM
Would you say Paco’s beginning of his solo in Spain had some mistakes- Or rather maybe it just wasn’t a good choice in the moment of improving. It could just be that he refined things a lot more in future concerts. I just picture him having a big migraine here!
Only mistakes because he plays out of the scale, but in all honesty, this entire concert shows him doing this deliberately quite often. I feel he is going for the “out notes” he hears Mclaughlin getting away with. For example in Mc’s solo he does something like Dmaj7 arp over the G chord then C#maj7 over the F# chord. I think what Paco didn’t understand is that those tensions only work over Dominant function chords and beg resolution soon there after. I feel Paco, back then, was fishing around for those types of tensions but didn’t always know how to resolve them nicely. We discussed this a bit earlier where someone gave a jazz guitar example playing outside the changes, and I point out the tensions only occur (and yes they are sour as hell) over the 2-5 portions of the changes and resolve nicely on the I chords whatever they might be. Paco abandons the out-note explorations soon after the beginning and does a decent solo over the rest of the progression.
I also talk about the soloing in Frevo (the version on Friday night) in that Paco tutorial 5 and it was interesting to see how Mclaughlin keeps the scales diatonic to the the chords. Only the one spot has some melodic minor which I demonstrate. Paco in contrast was much more adventurous and used G melodic minor excessively over the A phrygian portion. Later he does other interesting things. The Saturday version is not much different. On thing to think about…Chanela, Spain, and Meeting of the Spirits are all basically in Taranta key, so the tensions he explores are similar to ones I have heard him use in his Tarantas going back to Fantasia etc.
RE: Saturday Night in San Francisco (in reply to Ricardo)
Ok that makes sense about choice of scale in the beginning . Thanks for the analysis, pretty interesting! It’s sort of the first time I’ve noticed it despite Paco talking about his the challenges. Ironically I’m struggling to understand J.McG’s choice of notes over chords in a section of Cardeosa. sounds right on the record but not when I play it!
RE: Saturday Night in San Francisco (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ricardo
Saturday night in Madrid. The comments are hilarious at times.
Jesus, that was painful to watch. No effort whatsoever to include McLaughlin, who looks inexplicably confused especially during the first 3 minutes. It only gets worse with the back-and-forth shredding part after the 6 minute mark (lol @ McLaughlin's two bubble-burst sounding notes from 6:42 - 6:44). If age/arthritis is a problem, then di Meola and Sanchez should at least have the sense of deference and presence of mind to adjust what they were doing. McLaughlin doesn't even get the timing right on the last chord. Yikes man. This definitely goes along with my take-away from seeing di Meola live, as amazing of a player and musician as he is, the older I get, the less I am impressed with this sort of "shredding." To clarify, I'm not making the (ridiculous) "he's all technique and no emotion!" argument as I find those kind of criticisms to be pretty surface-level and reductive, but rather that this is the kind of ensemble playing where very little effort is put into listening to the other musicians and in turn creating a cohesive whole -- just individuals (di Meola, namely, lol) showing off.
Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Saturday Night in San Francisco (in reply to Bulerias2005)
quote:
No effort whatsoever to include McLaughlin, who looks inexplicably confused especially during the first 3 minutes.
In Mclaughlin Paco duet projects and all trio tours, John stays away from this tune deliberately. Certainly you have noticed internet confusion over the title Med sun vs Entre dos Aguas? For example on tour with Larry they call the same piece Entre dos Aguas…and along comes people insisting the song is called Mediterranean Sundance. As you know the brief falseta intro is Al’s lick. The rest is Paco’s music. Including when they added Rio Ancho, as you see in this version here. Al and Paco actually do the Larry version in 83 with Passion Grace and Fire as the intro….Paco plays that Larry version as well with his group in the 70’s and with Banderas and Canizares. So why does this all matter? Well…the whole point of contention, the FIGHT in the Trio was about this tune. Al had to fork over a royalty check to Paco (since Al was claiming both the Elegant Gypsy and Friday Night versions as his OWN composition), before hitting record in the studio for Passion Grace and Fire. While I don’t think Al was deliberately being malicious, I believe he is just an airhead living in his own world. Evidence for that I explain earlier in this thread… as of recently Al believes that Poor paco had written NO MUSIC for Friday night disc. That means he honestly believes Rio Ancho is his own composition, not to mention Entre dos Aguas. He is also always “amazed” that Med sun became a ‘hit single” in Europe…totally negating the fact the SAME SONG in a different version was a hit discotec single in Europe when it came out in 1973!! Of course it would be a hit because it already had been. And lets be honest….the same HIT SINGLE is what sold Friday night to the masses. (Freaking Eyeroll get a clue Al!!!)
So John, is also an airhead? Or is he being passive aggressive? I choose the later. While I can’t find the video anymore, he stated upon release of the 2016 Montreux concert that Paco came with a piece to play with Al called ‘sun breeze or something? I forget..”. He was not playing dumb, he knows darn well that is Paco’s piece that Al had been taking credit for for years due to ONE FALSETA IN IT, and that eventually lead to a fist fight. On stage here, of course he knows this simple tune, and the fact it is Paco’s, but chooses to NOT PLAY the falsetas as if to acknowledge Al the composer. It is totally deliberate. He was forced to play it for Pavarotti and then never again. That is why his odd demeanor here…of course he shreds circles around both guys there.
In addition the solid body junk nylon thing he as sounds atrocious, and he knows it. It seems stuck at solo volume level and he indicated two times to engineers to turn himself down. (1:57 and 2:06), so he couldn’t do nice rhythm guitar anyway. Al gets lost in his own solo at 2:50 and changes the progression. Mc and Antonio have to follow him. I am sure it was another eye roll moment for Mclaughlin just like when Al crossed the compas at the Pavarotti gig. Mc always preferred the more sophisticated tunes with Paco.
RE: Saturday Night in San Francisco (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ricardo
quote:
No effort whatsoever to include McLaughlin, who looks inexplicably confused especially during the first 3 minutes.
In Mclaughlin Paco duet projects and all trio tours, John stays away from this tune deliberately. Certainly you have noticed internet confusion over the title Med sun vs Entre dos Aguas? For example on tour with Larry they call the same piece Entre dos Aguas…and along comes people insisting the song is called Mediterranean Sundance. As you know the brief falseta intro is Al’s lick. The rest is Paco’s music. Including when they added Rio Ancho, as you see in this version here. Al and Paco actually do the Larry version in 83 with Passion Grace and Fire as the intro….Paco plays that Larry version as well with his group in the 70’s and with Banderas and Canizares. So why does this all matter? Well…the whole point of contention, the FIGHT in the Trio was about this tune. Al had to fork over a royalty check to Paco (since Al was claiming both the Elegant Gypsy and Friday Night versions as his OWN composition), before hitting record in the studio for Passion Grace and Fire. While I don’t think Al was deliberately being malicious, I believe he is just an airhead living in his own world. Evidence for that I explain earlier in this thread… as of recently Al believes that Poor paco had written NO MUSIC for Friday night disc. That means he honestly believes Rio Ancho is his own composition, not to mention Entre dos Aguas. He is also always “amazed” that Med sun became a ‘hit single” in Europe…totally negating the fact the SAME SONG in a different version was a hit discotec single in Europe when it came out in 1973!! Of course it would be a hit because it already had been. And lets be honest….the same HIT SINGLE is what sold Friday night to the masses. (Freaking Eyeroll get a clue Al!!!)
So John, is also an airhead? Or is he being passive aggressive? I choose the later. While I can’t find the video anymore, he stated upon release of the 2016 Montreux concert that Paco came with a piece to play with Al called ‘sun breeze or something? I forget..”. He was not playing dumb, he knows darn well that is Paco’s piece that Al had been taking credit for for years due to ONE FALSETA IN IT, and that eventually lead to a fist fight. On stage here, of course he knows this simple tune, and the fact it is Paco’s, but chooses to NOT PLAY the falsetas as if to acknowledge Al the composer. It is totally deliberate. He was forced to play it for Pavarotti and then never again. That is why his odd demeanor here…of course he shreds circles around both guys there.
In addition the solid body junk nylon thing he as sounds atrocious, and he knows it. It seems stuck at solo volume level and he indicated two times to engineers to turn himself down. (1:57 and 2:06), so he couldn’t do nice rhythm guitar anyway. Al gets lost in his own solo at 2:50 and changes the progression. Mc and Antonio have to follow him. I am sure it was another eye roll moment for Mclaughlin just like when Al crossed the compas at the Pavarotti gig. Mc always preferred the more sophisticated tunes with Paco.
Yes, I was familiar with the background about Paco "not writing" anything for Friday Night, totally absurd. I don't understand how di Meola can live in that kind of fantasy world where he has just convinced himself that he is the composer of what's basically an extended Rio Ancho haha. Interesting theory about passive aggression re: McLaughlin. I can see that. The end result though looks just as ridiculous regardless of the explanation. He doesn't seem like a very confrontational person at baseline but I guess I just wouldn't have done the gig at all given the circumstances and history. Can always come up with some kind of excuse, like, "I didn't get the chance to compose any new material, and I wouldn't want to just play your old tunes, Al, like Mediterranean Moondance." Hahaha.
Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Saturday Night in San Francisco (in reply to JasonM)
quote:
and John is like 80 with arthritis?
He hasn’t been playing “trio style” solos for decades now. He likes fast difficult chord changes that he navigates with “Coltrane swing”, as I call it. Like Giant steps type thing. It is still shredding in my book. Here is his latest…30 sec intro and outro and the rest is just an 80 year old with arthritis shredding:
RE: Saturday Night in San Francisco (in reply to JasonM)
quote:
Finally got the SACD today. Soniquete….is…. OMG…just his other solo as expected
That's awesome!
Regarding the dispute about Mediterranean Sundance, I had no idea this was happening, seems incredible. When I read the "poor Paco..." thing on the CD I was like 'what..', and wanted to post it here but was first re-reading other comments and saw that Ricardo already commented on that. Anyway, I never liked Al's or John's works, but John McLaughlin seems like a really nice and humble guy. Had no idea either he's 80, amazing he still plays on that level.
RE: Saturday Night in San Francisco (in reply to Ricardo)
Thank you for bringing this jewel to our attention. What a monster McLaughlin is.. He has always been an inspiration with his sound and playing with Shakti, Mahavishnu, and all his acoustic and electric group albums as well. McLaughlin, as Paco, Sabicas, Gerardo Núñez, but also Egberto Gismonti, Roland Dyens, are some of the guitarists that after I hear them I get an urge to study immediately, regardless the time of the day or night. I still remember trying to sleep in my twenties hearing to Sabicas in the night, and getting up getting my guitar to play.
RE: Saturday Night in San Francisco (in reply to AndresK)
John is amazing. but personality aside, Al really does have a lot of good stuff too! Ricardo has always brought this up and recently got me inspired to go through all of his albums. I had only owned - listened to a couple over the years. But now with streaming services it’s too easy not to. Also a lot of folks don’t like the synth stuff that he uses and I get that. I say open the mind a little and listen!
Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Saturday Night in San Francisco (in reply to JasonM)
It finally came out on Apple Music yesterday, and the extra track is Paco’s bulerias (like Jason’s SACD). I was under the impression the Europeans were getting Black Orpheus. Anyone know?
RE: Saturday Night in San Francisco (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ricardo
It finally came out on Apple Music yesterday, and the extra track is Paco’s bulerias (like Jason’s SACD). I was under the impression the Europeans were getting Black Orpheus. Anyone know?
Yes, it's true; in Europe you get Orpheo Negro:
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Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Saturday Night in San Francisco (in reply to kitarist)
EDIT: never mind. I found the track. They really cut it up. Only half of Mclaughlin’s solo and half of Al’s, and Paco plays the outro tag. Still I don’t get why not release it with the USA products? Weird.
RE: Saturday Night in San Francisco (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
have a feeling the album cover there is fake or a pre-final design concept
Still possible, but I took this from the German amazon store; presumably it is the real thing as it is posted as the official cover for the CD being sold there? Though I don't know amazon's practices regarding truthful representation of the stuff they sell.
EDIT: Oops, didn't see your mods before responding.
RE: Saturday Night in San Francisco (in reply to kitarist)
According to US Consumer studies , if given a choice a slight majority of people prefer Soniquete over Black Orpheus, but most folks prefer Diet Coke to Pepsi.
Wonder if they couldn’t fit the whole track on the CD? I didn’t compare the lengths between the two.
Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Saturday Night in San Francisco (in reply to devilhand)
quote:
ORIGINAL: devilhand
Guys, we talked enough about Al's music and Saturday night. Now let's talk about his wig. He's been wearing a wig for how many years?
Even Al has a flamenco guitar. Where is yours? Hope you get one before your hair starts thinning so your troll comment remains as humorous as you think it is.
I really liked Al when he started his solo career. I thought "Wow, here's a guy playing jazz lines with a rock sound".
But others had done it too. and some did it better, like Ray Gomez, who really influenced Jeff Beck's fusion period. Beck borrowed heavily from him.
Larry published an exercise in Guitar player mag decades ago that I practiced for years. It's a single note extended line that takes you all over the neck. Another reason I really like Larry is he hired my friend to play on one of his records towards the end of his career. We were so proud of him. Heck, Larry played with Miles, and so many other heavy musicians.
Stark difference between the amount of great musicians the two recorded with. I understand Al's solo career was more successful but I think a great way to measure a musician is by who chooses to hire them.
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