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Flamenco palos are performed at weddings, funerals and other occasions. My point is that there is a big difference between a person who came from that culture and can perform songs in those social settings as compared to people who can’t.
But it seems you insinuate that people that CAN perform those songs in those social settings are ones that are ALLOWED to? Isn’t that a contradiction to your point? Maybe you meant “invited to perform” at those engagements and such. And I think you probably meant Gypsy gatherings specifically …. And maybe that is what you actually mean by “flamenco culture”? Are you aware that not all flamenco families are gypsy and that they don’t always get invited to each other’s social events??? And hopefully you understand not getting invited to a flamenco social does not mean you are “not flamenco”.
Anyway, yes people on foro CAN and DO perform at Social events, both gypsy and non gypsy, and yes, Gypsy traditional music AND non Gypsy Flamenco. And sometimes these foro members get paid well do to that because they are the best flamenco artists available at the time.
PS I would like Rosalia to do the Chicken Teriaki dance on my grave
Flamenco palos are performed at weddings, funerals and other occasions. My point is that there is a big difference between a person who came from that culture and can perform songs in those social settings as compared to people who can’t.
But it seems you insinuate that people that CAN perform those songs in those social settings are ones that are ALLOWED to? Isn’t that a contradiction to your point? Maybe you meant “invited to perform” at those engagements and such. And I think you probably meant Gypsy gatherings specifically …. And maybe that is what you actually mean by “flamenco culture”? Are you aware that not all flamenco families are gypsy and that they don’t always get invited to each other’s social events??? And hopefully you understand not getting invited to a flamenco social does not mean you are “not flamenco”.
Anyway, yes people on foro CAN and DO perform at Social events, both gypsy and non gypsy, and yes, Gypsy traditional music AND non Gypsy Flamenco. And sometimes these foro members get paid well do to that because they are the best flamenco artists available at the time.
PS I would like Rosalia to do the Chicken Teriaki dance on my grave
On one level I’m referring to people who can - this is significant. I’m also referring to people who are at one of these social gatherings and know the music well enough to be encouraged to perform palmas or do a short dance. It has nothing to do with being the best or a virtuoso. These two points are what I’ve been getting at the entire time - no more, no less...
I’m not suggesting the music of Las Ketchup and Rosalía is Flamenco, but they do have a better pedigree than Foro members.
I said their music was crap as a counterpoint to your claim about their "pedigree," as if "pedigree" were something important. Your claim that I didn't understand your point is ridiculous.
Reread your statement, quoted above, and ponder it for a few minutes. Perhaps you might want to rephrase it. To state that they have a "better pedigree than Foro members" is, to put it mildly, sophistry posing as profundity. And you are hardly in a position to determine who is "acceptable" in their culture on the basis of their "pedigree" and who isn't.
Are you placing yourself in a position of someone with "insider's knowledge" above some Foro members who have lived in Andalusia for years? It is arrogant to think you know more about the culture than they. And while you have a right to your own opinion, you do not have a right to your own facts.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
I’m not suggesting the music of Las Ketchup and Rosalía is Flamenco, but they do have a better pedigree than Foro members.
I said their music was crap as a counterpoint to your claim about their "pedigree," as if "pedigree" was something important. Your claim that I didn't understand your point is ridiculous.
Reread your statement, quoted above, and ponder it for a few minutes. Perhaps you might want to rephrase it. To state that they have a "better pedigree than Foro members" is, to put it mildly, sophistry posing as profundity. And you are hardly in a position to determine who is "acceptable" in their culture on the basis of their "pedigree" and who isn't.
Are you placing yourself in a position of someone with "insider's knowledge" above some Foro members who have lived in Andalusia for years? It is arrogant to think you know more about the culture than they. And while you have a right to your own opinion, you do not have a right to your own facts.
Bill
quote:
They don't perform flamenco and the music they do make is largely crap, but they "have a better pedigree than Foro members." What kind of fourth grade elementary school gibberish is that? To date, that line wins the prize for the most immature fourth grader's attempt at profundity yet. As if "pedigree" trumps talent. I guess it does to someone who cannot distinguish between the two.
I know what you said. If you had understood the distinction I was making you would have responded to it instead of adding an additional layer of confusion by combining your opinion of their music with a statement I made earlier. The trophy for “fourth grade elementary school gibberish” goes to you for this. Perhaps you might want to rephrase it.
Ricardo made a few substantive posts regarding my thoughts on the matter and I responded.
To be clear this discussion is about authenticity, not talent and it is within the context of people who grew up immersed in a culture and its music as opposed to those who did not.
To be clear, your "clarification" above seems to exclude Foro members (as a category) from having ever attained a certain "authenticity," when in fact some have lived in Spain and Andalusia and lived among flamencos for years. On the other hand, just being a gitano does not automatically grant someone the "authenticity" you feel is so important to being accepted in flamenco culture. Yours is a form of essentialism that grants immutable characteristics to a culture or group that cannot be penetrated by nonmembers (or at least Foro members).
There are some ethnicities and cultures that are so exotic and multi-layered that it is nearly impossible for an outsider to achieve authenticity within them. One that I am very familiar with is Javanese culture. The mindset, worldview, and language of the Javanese are nearly impenetrable to Westerners. The Javanese language alone is so difficult that the lingua franca of maritime southeast Asia, Malay, was made the national language of Indonesia (called Bahasa Indonesia), as Javanese was too difficult for the other ethnicities in Indonesia to learn.
Andalusia and gitano culture, however, is not among those impenetrable cultures like Javanese. I doubt that you are able to support with evidence your essentialist approach that leads to categorical statements concerning "pedigree" and "authenticity."
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
To be clear this discussion is about authenticity, not talent and it is within the context of people who grew up immersed in a culture and its music as opposed to those who did not.
To be clear, your "clarification" above seems to exclude Foro members (as a category) from having ever attained a certain "authenticity," when in fact some have lived in Spain and Andalusia and lived among flamencos for years. On the other hand, just being a gitano does not automatically grant someone the "authenticity" you feel is so important to being accepted in flamenco culture. Yours is a form of essentialism that grants immutable characteristics to a culture or group that cannot be penetrated by nonmembers (or at least Foro members).
Andalusia and gitano culture, however, is not among those impenetrable cultures like Javanese. I doubt that you are able to support with evidence your essentialist approach that leads to categorical statements concerning "pedigree" and "authenticity."
Bill
You made some good points here. I didn’t say that gitanos were the only ones. I’m only referring to the advantage that people have who were born into flamenco culture when it comes to dancing or performing various aspects of the music. From the posts I’ve read on the Foro during the past 15 years it is obvious that members love Flamenco, but are outsiders. They are learning this form of music later in life and all of these conditions make it less likely (and in a lot of cases impossible) for them to play this music in a way that would fit into the social settings in which it developed.
These two points are what I’ve been getting at the entire time
Ok then in that case you are simply wrong and have no idea. You honestly think people on foro can’t do palmas as good as Rosalia or Ketchup?
If you wanted to amend your statement to “Rosalia and Ketchup have a better flamenco pedigree than certain members of Foro that are NOVICE BEGINNER STUDENTS”, then i think we could all be happy with that and move on.
Wow! So ‘Novice Beginner Students’ have less flamenco pedigree than some other Foro members. How can this be? I tend to think of pedigree as relating to the genetic inheritance of dogs, cats and horses. Can flamenco pedigree be acquired? - by changing one’s name and becoming a more expert player?
This interesting, if disturbingly acrimonious, debate touches on a preoccupation that seems to run through many Foro discussions. How flamenco can you be if you didn’t grow up in the flamenco culture of Andalusia and have the right parentage?
Jazz music is younger than flamenco but seems to have escaped from such comparable preoccupations a long time ago. But discussions on this point seem still to worry some players of flamenco. Accusations have been made by some here that Juan Martín (who had a Spanish father and an English mother and grew up in Málaga) is ‘not Spanish’ but Paco de Lucía who had a Spanish father and a Portuguese mother is a god. Grisha is Russian, José Greco was Italian, non-Spanish players have played in top-rate tablaos, beautiful flamenco guitars are made by non-Spaniards but still the argument goes on. One factor driving the problem is the language barrier. One can play flamenco guitar without speaking Spanish but it’s a barrier to becoming more immersed in flamenco culture. Are we never going to be able to accept that flamenco is a genre of music that has grown beyond a restricted elite entitled to rate performers by their ‘authenticity’ or ‘pedigree’ and disparage those deemed lacking in skill or the right genes or other circumstances of birth?
I tend to think of pedigree as relating to the genetic inheritance of dogs, cats and horses.
Me too, and I agree it is actually a horrible thing to be looking for in regards to how “flamenco” someone is. But I did not start that application of concept here, I was responding to the person who did. In fact he brought out the “pedigree” thing only after push back against his ridiculous insinuation that the hacks Rosalia and friends, were “more flamenco” than ANY foro member.
They seem to get it, not sure why everybody else can't.
Entre los detractores más beligerantes está Manuel Martín Martín, crítico del diario El Mundo. “Rosalía es una artista sobrevalorada –asevera– a la que han entronizado al Olimpo de los dioses de lo jondo sin ser innovadora, porque no conoce el cante de La Paquera, La Perla o Camarón ni en la carpeta de los discos, y porque no ataja los estilos, sino que los susurra, los ganguea, y lo que emite surge liviano, empalagoso, sin transmisión, con lo que estamos ante un producto comercial muy bien elaborado por quienes obvian que el arte es estética y no afinar la puntería del propósito individual hacia la vaciedad de la nada”.
Para este analista de lo jondo, la cantante “no llega a la almendrilla de la naturaleza del flamenco, ignora la lenta cristalización de los estilos, su poso de sabiduría no dispone de sedimentos, tampoco alcanza a dar una visión trascendente de lo que propone, y cuando lanza la vocecita de mentirijillas al viento aparece envuelta en una liviandad tan tenue y tan huera que es la antítesis de un profundo sentimiento”.
Martín Martín señala como la fallida prueba de fuego de Rosalía su actuación en la Bienal de Sevilla 2018: “Era su gran oportunidad de demostrar que es cantaora, pero quedó al descubierto validando un cante trampa, una mentira en la vorágine de un engaño que parece verdad. ¿Y por qué? Pues porque es un objeto a vender, un producto bien colocado en el mercado, pero no para cantar flamenco. Es, por tanto, un hípster más de la subcultura urbana, asociada a lo vintage, a lo alternativo, adicta a la música indie y una figura de barro que está al cabo de las últimas novedades tecnológicas y que gestiona el pack completo de las redes sociales como un profesional”.
What do they “get”? She is the new Picasso of cante? . Nobody ever said she didn’t know what flamenco is, it is her refusal to learn correctly that is the problem. The couple there is pointing out that THEY know what she is singing (no doubt better than she does, as they demonstrate), so …. The Autotune is really “artistic” isn’t it??? How about learn to sing the song in tune and in compas FIRST, then try your hand at being a Picasso (ie Camaron Leyendo del Tiempo and other projects). The perfect buleria accompanist for her is this guy:
The father of Joselito and his sister Encarnita tried to make both into cantaores. Both were pupils of José Millán, so they know the cante. At first, both had exito, cantando for el baile.
But when they began p´alante, Joselito sang, and continues to sing, flamenco.
Encarnita showed what she was and sings cuples and canciones, mixed with a little of cante. Her marido, de Peru, just plays what she likes.
I can't believe how bad this is. I jammed with him at a club in the late 80's and he couldn't play bulerias then either, but dang, 20 years later and he STILL can't? That's messed up. Can you imagine, your this Figura among the ignorant, but can't see the forest from the trees, and make no effort to figure it out.
It's been nearly another 15 years since this vid. I wonder.....no actually I don't. I'd bet 10.00 he still can't. I was going to say 100.00 but I don't care that much. Just freakin sad. Flamenco is difficult, but come on MAN! Guy has every advantage, and every reason, but still nothing. No wonder he pisses flamencos off.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ricardo
quote:
ORIGINAL: kenjo138
They seem to get it, not sure why everybody else can't.
What do they “get”? She is the new Picasso of cante? . Nobody ever said she didn’t know what flamenco is, it is her refusal to learn correctly that is the problem. The couple there is pointing out that THEY know what she is singing (no doubt better than she does, as they demonstrate), so …. The Autotune is really “artistic” isn’t it??? How about learn to sing the song in tune and in compas FIRST, then try your hand at being a Picasso (ie Camaron Leyendo del Tiempo and other projects). The perfect buleria accompanist for her is this guy:
So there is this thing, with Rosalia and others, where it equates to this kind of guy. Many people say, yes he sold millions of records and now exposes “flamenco” to a wider audience, and has the artistic license to do this “fusion” or whatever, with “elements” of the art form. Then there is the argument that these people know flamenco but “choose” not to “do it”. As in what Rosalia sang and what this guy plays is NOT FLAMENCO. Well, sorry to say in both cases it IS flamenco, and the point is that there is a subjective line where you like something or not thanks to TASTE….but there is the much more OBJECTIVE line where your interpretation is simply low level. This is the case here…he knows compas, but never learned the technique. Most likely because he did not learn to accompany where you develop those skills. Obviously Rosalia lacks similar training, but guess what? Now it is TOO LATE for them because they feel not only that they are “pro” but SERIOUS ARTISTS….and blame the criticism on being “misunderstood” and then the rest of us have to waste time arguing about it. For me it is simple, like or dislike whatever you want, but admit when the level is low and move on to studying the true heavy weights of the art…there are plenty. Stop defending people that need no defense…they need lessons.
Rosalia, Ottmar, and Benise-the power trio from hell. Should be a Gary Larson cartoon in which flamencos who went to hell have to listen to them for eternity.
Of course they'd sell out a tour....."sell out" being the operative word.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ricardo
quote:
I can't believe how bad this is.
So there is this thing, with Rosalia and others, where it equates to this kind of guy. Many people say, yes he sold millions of records and now exposes “flamenco” to a wider audience, and has the artistic license to do this “fusion” or whatever, with “elements” of the art form. Then there is the argument that these people know flamenco but “choose” not to “do it”. As in what Rosalia sang and what this guy plays is NOT FLAMENCO. Well, sorry to say in both cases it IS flamenco, and the point is that there is a subjective line where you like something or not thanks to TASTE….but there is the much more OBJECTIVE line where your interpretation is simply low level. This is the case here…he knows compas, but never learned the technique. Most likely because he did not learn to accompany where you develop those skills. Obviously Rosalia lacks similar training, but guess what? Now it is TOO LATE for them because they feel not only that they are “pro” but SERIOUS ARTISTS….and blame the criticism on being “misunderstood” and then the rest of us have to waste time arguing about it. For me it is simple, like or dislike whatever you want, but admit when the level is low and move on to studying the true heavy weights of the art…there are plenty. Stop defending people that need no defense…they need lessons.
Grisha hosted a live stream last night and I was lucky to catch the last 20 minutes of it. He had a copy of Juan Martin’s flamenco method on a music stand and suggested it as a starting point for learning flamenco. He also praised Manitis de Plata and Carlos Montoya. Viewers kept asking Grisha for his opinion about the “professor,” but Grisha refused to criticize him and even said positive things about him.
He had a copy of Juan Martin’s flamenco method on a music stand and suggested it as a starting point for learning flamenco.
As I already mentioned on the foro. J. Martin is a legend. So is Grisha. I also own J. Martin's book. I still have to work on it though.
quote:
He also praised Manitis de Plata and Carlos Montoya. Viewers kept asking Grisha for his opinion about the “professor,” but Grisha refused to criticize him and even said positive things about him.
I'm not sure who the professor is. But one thing is sure Grisha can say whatever he wants.
but Grisha refused to criticize him and even said positive things about him.
Lucky for him I guess he doesn’t know anybody personally that has been harmed by him and has no guilt about sending others into danger. Wish I could say the same.
My experience has been that among top level classical guitarists like Grisha, it is well-nigh impossible to get them to say anything even remotely negative about a colleague, or even about a performance well below the colleague's usual standard.
In fact the professional courtesy extends to most classical musicians. As a high school kid I knew Frank Adams, Toscanini's lead percussionist. Frank was the only percussionist I ever knew who had perfect pitch. Toscanini was notorious for a volcanic temper, cursing musicians in three languages and firing them on the spot. (The orchestra manager would hire them back the next day, usually with Toscanini's tacit acceptance.) I tried to get Frank to tell Toscanini stories. He would change the subject.
At last he said, "We who played under him don't tell Toscanini stories."
"Why not Frank?"
"We played better under him than anybody else."
I once sat still in a big auditorium while John Williams delivered a performance of Bach's Chaconne that I likened to whitewashing Michelangelo's Sistine Chapel frescos. Never a word from any of the half dozen top pros subjected to the same felony that night at the ornate opera house in Merida, Yucatan. By then I had long known better than to say anything about it to the pros.
A Williams fan told me, "He was just having a bad night." No, that's what Williams did when he was on his "Let the music speak for itself" kick. Perfect technique without a scintilla of expression: intentional vandalism.
In Grisha's case, apparently the habit of professional courtesy in the face of malfeasance has--on at least one occasion--carried over to a despicable fraud who infests the world of flamenco guitar.
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