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As for the gitano thing, culture is never uniform. Contradictory ideas in the same social group do occur. Mairena and Pena Fernandez both see flamenco, or at least the so-called "cante gitano" as a gitano art and practice. Everything you say is logical and even commonsensical but ethnomusicology starts from the position that the scholar is an outsider.

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But then, I'm not going in as an anthropologist; I'm just living.

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I don't know who "they" are.

Aside from that, there is no single phrygian cadence. iv6-V is one phrygian cadence, the prototype. But phrygian cadences come in many guises. bII-i is found in Bizet and Beethoven and Paco Solea (where paco uses it to tonicize iv). II-i is found in Riqueni and Amigo Solea. And although Montoya and Ricardo use aug6th chords on 2, they are almost always treated as chords. It is not until Sabicas that you see individual lines where someone is actually thinking of how distinc voices might connect (not just intuitive chord to chord). As for leading tone, I am not sure why you are emphasizing that. The whole point of the phrygian cadence is that it is the only one that descends by half-step rather than emphasizing the leading tone. And it is found in the descending tetrachord going back to Foscarini. It might go back even further.
A very important point is that "cadence" only covers a fraction of what we are talking about. The DT a-g-f-e is found in fandangos, jacaras, passacalles in the Baroque guitarists material and there it sometimes is juxtaposed with a plagal i-V progression that can at times seem like a plagal cadence from i-V and at other times a full cadence from V-i. Cadences do not gie the full picture. At any rate, a II-I cadence goes back to a very distant Spanish Baroque past as part of the Andalusian cadence and on its own.

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I point out that there is no such thing as cultures except as an analytical construct. But like the particle in physics (especially in the double-slit and related experiments) culture must be measured before one can see what it is.

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They are them guys that write theory text books etc. bII-i implies minor tonality and Neapolitan descriptions come, not “Phrygian cadence” (I guess Schenkerian use Phrygian II as a description). The Aug6 occurs when you raise the root of iv6 creating voice leading or leading tone. The same type of leading tone produced that is necessary to have V-i in minor keys. Hence functional harmony. The functional aspect of Phrygian is ignored by the collective “they” I was referring to, hence the bizarre nomenclature. It is simply understood that Phrygian doesn’t function. But we flamencos know it does. And we don’t need descending tetra chords to cadence. F-Gm-A functions por medio just as well (or better?), as you know. We often strengthen our Gm-A with a leading tone chord of some type…no different than if we were in A minor rather than A Phrygian. (F G7 G#dim Am for example is the Aeolian equivalent getting the tonal treatment). My issue is that “they” don’t acknowledge Phrygian function like we use it in Flamenco, and you can point to historical examples all you want. “They” can include jazzers and their tritone subs who also don’t acknowledge that as a phrygian functional device.

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The descending tetra is indistinguishable from i VII VI V… and no matter how hard you argue about it, that fact doesn’t change and therefore is an un useful description of how and why flamenco works in general. Further, I feel the chords are born out of the voice leading concept rather than modern flamencos suddenly re-discovering it. Ie the G#BD of siguiriyas guitar riffs is more like a melodic arpegio rather than a block chord…it is voice leading pull back to tonic clearly.

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Since what social scientists study is culture and people, one would take into account how a community constructs that "ontological inside."... Culture comes out of the analysis, not before.

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Are you suggesting that those elements that are considered to constitute the "culture" of a group must be studied and analyzed before we can consider it a "culture"? Don't those elements exist whether or not anthropologists study and analyze them? It may be that "we" understand a culture only after it is analyzed and explained, but, in my opinion, that a given group possesses a culture does not depend on it being studied and analyzed by an "outsider."

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here is a cool paper I came across that address the “problem” with the Andalusian cadence and flamenco, where it is admitted the proper function of Phrygian as flamencos use it, has not really been properly examined in western (“they”) terms:
https://www.academia.edu/39669190/THE_CONTROVERSIAL_IDENTITY_OF_FLAMENCO_JAZZ_A_NEW_HISTORICAL_AND_ANALYTICAL_APPROACH?email_work_card=view-paper

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I suggest you read Christensen's volume on music theory, the Towards Tonality collection, Ellis incredible book on the augmented sixth chord, the What is a Cadence Book.

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For the benefit of others who are curious about this, could you be more pointed in what you are referencing - like what part of the book(s) or a section or even page ranges?

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Are you suggesting that those elements that are considered to constitute the "culture" of a group must be studied and analyzed before we can consider it a "culture"? Don't those elements exist whether or not anthropologists study and analyze them? It may be that "we" understand a culture only after it is analyzed and explained, but, in my opinion, that a given group possesses a culture does not depend on it being studied and analyzed by an "outsider."

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is there not a "gitano" and "payo" culture? Is there an "Andalusian culture?

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You should read things like " El Chato de la Isla, entre le vida y el cante." Born in San Fernando, so poor that you could not imagine. Payo. Intímo amigo of Camarón and his father.Gitanos. Everybody was poor, so poor they had nothing to eat. They had no time to see any difference, between a hungry gitano and a hungry payo. He spent his life singing with both, made great friends with both and thinks that every cantaor sings de su forma.

Rancapio, Camarón, Chano. Todos cantaores todos amigos.

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ORIGINAL: BarkellWH

This reminds me of a great New Yorker cartoon years ago. It shows the inside of an African hut with a conical roof and a window looking out as an archetypal cartoon anthropologist approaches in his bush shirt, pith helmet, and binoculars. Inside, the African male is telling his wife, "Quick, hide the stereo, here comes another anthropologist."

Bill

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ORIGINAL: Beni2
The Observer Effect in action.

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A more apt application of physics to your statement about culture might be Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle. You state that "culture must be measured before one can see what it is." Yet in Heisenberg's formulation, the very act of observation and measurement changes the object being observed in a way that defies knowing its position and velocity simultaneously.

I have always thought this was a problem for anthropologists as well. By observing and measuring those elements that are considered cultural attributes of particular groups, one can't be sure that the very act of observation and measurement has not altered them in ways that would not have occurred had their been no observer present.

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You should read things like " El Chato de la Isla, entre le vida y el cante." Born in San Fernando, so poor that you could not imagine. Payo. Intímo amigo of Camarón and his father.Gitanos. Everybody was poor, so poor they had nothing to eat. They had no time to see any difference, between a hungry gitano and a hungry payo. He spent his life singing with both, made great friends with both and thinks that every cantaor sings de su forma.

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There's a great book by Karen Barad about this (it's called "Meeting the Universe Halfway," I believe), though she uses Bohr as a jumping-off point. This question of observation as informational input is also at play in a lot of systems theory -- Luhmann discusses it quite a bit.

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Trnka and Lorencova - Quantum Anthropology.

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whole book based on a faulty analogy and on a misunderstanding of quantum phenomena and physics? Mein Gott. They don't even need it: just state your thing and don't try to justify it in preposterous ways for reflected glow status points.

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What do they get wrong?

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"One can even set up quite ridiculous cases. A cat is penned up in a steel chamber, along with the following device (which must be secured against direct interference by the cat): in a Geiger counter, there is a tiny bit of radioactive substance, so small, that perhaps in the course of the hour one of the atoms decays, but also, with equal probability, perhaps none; if it happens, the counter tube discharges and through a relay releases a hammer that shatters a small flask of hydrocyanic acid. If one has left this entire system to itself for an hour, one would say that the cat still lives if meanwhile no atom has decayed. The psi-function of the entire system would express this by having in it the living and dead cat (pardon the expression) mixed or smeared out in equal parts."

"It is typical of these cases that an indeterminacy originally restricted to the atomic domain becomes transformed into macroscopic indeterminacy, which can then be resolved by direct observation. That prevents us from so naively accepting as valid a "blurred model" for representing reality. In itself, it would not embody anything unclear or contradictory."

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We are already stretching the on-topic restrictions Simon imposed in August.

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So I have little respect for academicos, super intelligent and estúpido a la vez.

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It brings home, once again, how interesting it is to be among a group of aficionados devoted to flamenco with such wide-ranging interests, Off-Topic though they may be. You don't see that on many fora.

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I've listened to hours of lectures by prominent physicists and read a few books geared toward the general public. I still know next to nothing about physics. What do they get wrong?