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BPM metrics for technique (arpeggio, tremolo, picado, etc.)
I know speed is far less important than other considerations, but I'm curious about the standard BPM metrics at the top end for the professional guitarists on this forum, specifically for arpeggios (p-i-m-a-m-i), tremolo (p-m-a-m-i or p-i-a-m-i), picado (m-i), and maybe the standard rasguedo (e-a-m-i). Metronome set to 4/4.
Not trying to do any rankings or anything silly like that. Just interested in what I should be aiming for BPM-wise other things being equal, i.e., cleanliness, tone, etc.
RE: BPM metrics for technique (arpeg... (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
You have to be able to play it all at 40 bpm, that’s the goal.
The first time I saw this video I didn’t notice that he was still tapping his foot at 160bpm, rather than just on the click at 40. Lot easier that way!
Posts: 14797
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: BPM metrics for technique (arpeg... (in reply to JasonM)
quote:
ORIGINAL: JasonM
quote:
You have to be able to play it all at 40 bpm, that’s the goal.
The first time I saw this video I didn’t notice that he was still tapping his foot at 160bpm, rather than just on the click at 40. Lot easier that way!
I used to think that too, but I started doing lots of gigs standing up or in a bar stool where I couldn’t tap the foot and honestly you realize the foot can mess you up sometimes. The best is the inner clock.
@ Bahen…the tempo he is using is a perfect ballpark for tangos, alegrias, solea por buleria, fandango, etc….so it is the idea that speed is nothing more than rhythmic control …. Those are the fills he does for example. Start simple from compas strumming as the baseline and gradually add in complexity (speed bursts, short falsetas that mix it up…running scales or arpegios gets you nowhere). So the idea is to use the metronome to gage the FEELING, and when you have it, the speed is already there because you will literally FEEL the answer to your question. Paco and the rest are viewing fast picado and arpegio etc as a rhythmic expression emerging from the compas base. That is why classical guitarist that seem technically very fast, somehow neglect the feeling of the rhythm, allowing phrases to breath or push pull rather than ride the train. They use the metronome to work on clean fast playing, but not rhythmic feeling. Don’t do that, always practice at a functional level and your playing will feel natural and as fast as needed.
RE: BPM metrics for technique (arpeg... (in reply to bahen)
quote:
specifically for arpeggios (p-i-m-a-m-i), tremolo (p-m-a-m-i or p-i-a-m-i), picado (m-i), and maybe the standard rasguedo (e-a-m-i). Metronome set to 4/4.
*I am not a professional. But I'll take the opportunity to post for my own sake, if nothing else. My process is aiming for what I need in a particular palo.
e.g. arpeggios (p-i-m-a-m-i) for solea I'm aiming for 120-130bpm with cante, for dance usually slower. I can't do 120-130bpm! But when I accompany cante I just don't use it, and actually that does not matter. For alegrias I use (p-i-m-a-m-i) in escobilla and when the bpm gets too high for me I switch. My current (p-i-m-a-m-i) goal is to be 100% solid at 110bpm por solea. 100% solid means reliable in performance, not just at home with the wind blowing in the right direction!
e.g. picado tangos at 150-160bpm is an aim. I can only do a very short burst, but that is enough for the falseta, cierres that I have to accompany. Would love a solid 150/160bpm for a compas or 2, but again it's not actually needed to accompany. I would also love a 100% solid 160/170bpm for a compas of alegrias- maybe another life time!
Saying all of that I like the idea of process goals, rather than outcome goals when practicing. I find process goals more motivating and effective, otherwise I get frustrated that I haven't reached 'X' bpm by 'X' date.
RE: BPM metrics for technique (arpeg... (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
...(speed bursts, short falsetas that mix it up…running scales or arpegios gets you nowhere)...
...They use the metronome to work on clean fast playing, but not rhythmic feeling. Don’t do that, always practice at a functional level and your playing will feel natural and as fast as needed.
Thanks for this. Even though slow practice has it's place, I realised I wasn't doing enough of what you describe here. Over the past few months, I have been practicing at fast tempos doing bursts/parts of a phrase and it seems to be working.
I've been taking some principles from electric shredder teachers on youtube. E.g. Practicing fast shows you what the real movement problems are. Because it's possible to practice clean slowly but the movements one is practicing simply won't work at higher tempos.
RE: BPM metrics for technique (arpeg... (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
I used to think that too, but I started doing lots of gigs standing up or in a bar stool where I couldn’t tap the foot and honestly you realize the foot can mess you up sometimes. The best is the inner clock.
Interesting. I like to practice with the click on the quarter note, so maybe I need to set it to the whole note or, longer to test myself more often. Could be fun!
When weaning off the metronome, you think it’s ok to begin tapping the subdivisions with the foot between clicks to ensure the rhythm is indeed locked in? Or, better to stick to just speeding up the click again if I get lost?
RE: BPM metrics for technique (arpeg... (in reply to bahen)
quote:
ORIGINAL: bahen
I know speed is far less important than other considerations, but I'm curious about the standard BPM metrics at the top end for the professional guitarists on this forum, specifically for arpeggios (p-i-m-a-m-i), tremolo (p-m-a-m-i or p-i-a-m-i), picado (m-i), and maybe the standard rasguedo (e-a-m-i). Metronome set to 4/4.
Not trying to do any rankings or anything silly like that. Just interested in what I should be aiming for BPM-wise other things being equal, i.e., cleanliness, tone, etc.
I am not a professional flamenco but have thought about this so maybe that is OK for a reply.
Since you are really asking about speed goals, let's get this away from the metronome for a moment.
I think you'd want to land somewhere on this table with your double arpeggio and picado stroke speeds - so at least 10 strokes/second as per the leftmost column. The columns on the right show the equivalent measures in BPM depending on how you set the metronome to click - every sextuplet or every four notes per 'beat'. And I think anything beyond 16 strokes/second is 'academic' - not practiced or musically functional.
I am showing some example goals that are sort-of informed by listening to top flamenco guitarists - in a way "what is likely required to be able to pull it off [with relative ease]". BTW, the reason the 'slowest two-finger picado", say 'm-a', is there is because things are related: if your slowest alternation is way off of your fastest, that would likely drag down your pimami arpeggios where 'mam' (m-a alternation) occurs as part of the arpeggio pattern.
Also notice the neat thing about the relationship between strokes/sec and sextuplets/beat - if you can do nice pimami sextuplets at 120 BPM, one sextuplet per beat, then take away the zero and you have the strokes/second speed: 12 strokes/second.
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Posts: 14797
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: BPM metrics for technique (arpeg... (in reply to kitarist)
Nice chart! So there is definitely a “normal fast guys” and “super fast guys” division point between 13 and 14 notes per second…right in that range. PDL fastest impressive stuff with Dimeola and mclaughlin is at 214….approaching 15 notes per second but not quite. Chanela has a run that is not super clean at 230 bpm. His nephew banderas nails a run on Caña de Azucar that I clocked at 224 bpm. Honestly never heard anything by Antonio Rey in that range. Paco Cepero did Amuleto at 240 but honestly I can’t clock it because it is forced in and not clearly divided live. On record it is only 208 so I suspect he slows down. Maybe someone can check it? 3:25
RE: BPM metrics for technique (arpeg... (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ricardo Paco Cepero did Amuleto at 240 but honestly I can’t clock it because it is forced in and not clearly divided live. On record it is only 208 so I suspect he slows down. Maybe someone can check it? 3:25
So there for a moment he is forcing "32nds" at a BPM of 124, i.e. 8 notes per click at 124 clicks/min for 1.5-2 clicks. This would mean a picado burst speed of halfway between 16 and 17 strokes/sec: 248 bpm if metronome at 4 notes/click. Damn! Well that's how I time it anyway.
Maybe I have to add another row for 17 strokes/sec so every known example, however brief, stays within the table
RE: BPM metrics for technique (arpeg... (in reply to kitarist)
Updated table with a 17 strokes/sec row and a "Victor Wooten" column showing how a Victor Wooten BPM of 40 is the magic number to aspire to for complete mastery
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Posts: 14797
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: BPM metrics for technique (arpeg... (in reply to kitarist)
quote:
So there for a moment he is forcing "32nds" at a BPM of 124, i.e. 8 notes per click at 124 clicks/min for 1.5-2 clicks. This would mean a picado burst speed of halfway between 16 and 17 strokes/sec: 248 bpm if metronome at 4 notes/click. Damn! Well that's how I time it anyway.
I slowed it down and I think he is not doing 8 notes per beat there, rather he starts as 6’s (around 120 bpm) then pushes it up to 7’s per beat briefly (between 14 and 15 NPS).
RE: BPM metrics for technique (arpeg... (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ricardo
quote:
So there for a moment he is forcing "32nds" at a BPM of 124, i.e. 8 notes per click at 124 clicks/min for 1.5-2 clicks. This would mean a picado burst speed of halfway between 16 and 17 strokes/sec: 248 bpm if metronome at 4 notes/click. Damn! Well that's how I time it anyway.
I slowed it down and I think he is not doing 8 notes per beat there, rather he starts as 6’s (around 120 bpm) then pushes it up to 7’s per beat briefly (between 14 and 15 NPS).
Ah, OK; sorry. I was hearing only 6 notes per beat at first at normal speed, then slowed it down and convinced myself it gets up to 8 notes / beat at its peak.
Also, I kinda like using 'note' instead of 'stroke' for the units. So first column becomes NPS (notes per second) as you note above; second column is NPM (notes per minute), rest are metronome BPM values for various NPB (notes per beat) setups. Is there any drawback to using 'notes' like that? Are the new initialisms (NPS, NPM, NPB) weird or easily confused with other established use? If they are OK I'll re-do the chart that way.
And, any other aspirational goals? And/or any of the ones I list seem way off?
RE: BPM metrics for technique (arpeg... (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ricardo
You have to be able to play it all at 40 bpm, that’s the goal.
Practicing with metronome click on every beat is bad and makes you fully dependent of the metronome. Here is how I do.
Quarter notes (bpm=50-60 in 4/4 time) Set the metronome click on the 2nd and 4th beat. You must feel the missing beats 1 and 3 on your own. I think this is equivalent to what Mr. Wooten says at 4:13. You can also subdivide every beat into 2, 3 and 4 notes in your head.
8th and 16th notes (bpm=80-90 in 4/4 time) Set the metronome click on off-beats of the 8th notes (&'s), triplets (the 3rd beat) and 16th notes (e's and a's). Again, you must feel the missing beats on your own.
You can tap your foot on the 1st downbeat or on 1 and 3 or on 2 and 4 or on every beat if you want to.
RE: BPM metrics for technique (arpeg... (in reply to kitarist)
quote:
Victor Wooten BPM of 40 is the magic number to aspire to for complete mastery
As I wrote above, we set the metronome click only on the 2nd and 4th beat. So in your head it’s a BPM of 80. So the last column title should be changed to devilhand BPM 12 strokes/beat.
Posts: 1868
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco
RE: BPM metrics for technique (arpeg... (in reply to orsonw)
I think you've got a solid technique based on those numbers, and I think that your goals are realistic, and at the same time, challenging. I've been working on the arpeggio pimami in solea por bulerias. I'd like to play it faster, and can with regard to all of the other techniques, but that arpeggio is slowing me down. I can get it at 110 pretty solid but I need it to be more like 120-130.
Picado is another story. Most days I struggle at 120 for anything over a bar or two. I'd also love to be able to pull off a full compas alegrias picado at 160 plus but I'm not sure I'll ever be able to. Realsitically it's doubtful, but I don't want to close the door psychologically. So, I keep working on it.
quote:
ORIGINAL: orsonw
quote:
specifically for arpeggios (p-i-m-a-m-i), tremolo (p-m-a-m-i or p-i-a-m-i), picado (m-i), and maybe the standard rasguedo (e-a-m-i). Metronome set to 4/4.
*I am not a professional. But I'll take the opportunity to post for my own sake, if nothing else. My process is aiming for what I need in a particular palo.
e.g. arpeggios (p-i-m-a-m-i) for solea I'm aiming for 120-130bpm with cante, for dance usually slower. I can't do 120-130bpm! But when I accompany cante I just don't use it, and actually that does not matter. For alegrias I use (p-i-m-a-m-i) in escobilla and when the bpm gets too high for me I switch. My current (p-i-m-a-m-i) goal is to be 100% solid at 110bpm por solea. 100% solid means reliable in performance, not just at home with the wind blowing in the right direction!
e.g. picado tangos at 150-160bpm is an aim. I can only do a very short burst, but that is enough for the falseta, cierres that I have to accompany. Would love a solid 150/160bpm for a compas or 2, but again it's not actually needed to accompany. I would also love a 100% solid 160/170bpm for a compas of alegrias- maybe another life time!
Saying all of that I like the idea of process goals, rather than outcome goals when practicing. I find process goals more motivating and effective, otherwise I get frustrated that I haven't reached 'X' bpm by 'X' date.
RE: BPM metrics for technique (arpeg... (in reply to kitarist)
Strange that the OP seemingly disappeared.
Added a goal for alzapua and fixed some notation:
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ricardo So there is definitely a “normal fast guys” and “super fast guys” division point between 13 and 14 notes per second…right in that range.
I was thinking that as well. The under 200 vs. over 200 club .
Also, it matters what is measured as a picado run speed (for the benefit of the OP):
I think when you take any one guitarist, because of the demand of finger-, finger-string-, right-hand-string-, and left-right-hand- coordination, their single-string burst (5-7 notes) speed would the highest, followed by their single string sustained picado speed, followed by their descending string-crossing picado speed, followed by their ascending string-crossing picado speed.
This poses some additional constraints or, to put it more positively, gives additional metrics for diagnostics and goals. For example, if one's single-string sustained picado is, say, 9 NPS (notes per second) i.e. 135 BPM at 4 NPB (notes per beat), the string-crossing picado cannot be forced to be faster.
Not sure how to train for this, though - it seems everything is related - which may be good news as any aspect which is improved seems to bleed into improvements in other categories.
Maybe this is telling us that one of the core things is to keep increasing finger independence and improving coordination between fingers-strings-right hand (and left-right hand) in order to minimize the drop-off in speed along the four picado types I mentioned above. Another is the raw speed of alternation itself which seems to depend also on having as precise and impulse-like force for the stroke and the return (i.e. for both the flexors and the extensors) as possible while keeping unproductive tension (meaning tensing any other muscle in hand, forearm, arm, shoulder) at zero.
This is just my view, of course; happy to hear what others think.
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RE: BPM metrics for technique (arpeg... (in reply to kitarist)
Konstantin, many thanks for the extremely instructive table (and the various updates!) as well as the others for their posts. I was in transit last couple of days, hence the delay in my reply. I'll post a few audio files in the coming days of where I am with the BPMs, just for fun.
RE: BPM metrics for technique (arpeg... (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
PDL fastest impressive stuff with Dimeola and mclaughlin is at 214….approaching 15 notes per second but not quite. Chanela has a run that is not super clean at 230 bpm. His nephew banderas nails a run on Caña de Azucar that I clocked at 224 bpm.
I just remembered - of note is Rafael Cortés's clean, punchy picado at a speed a third of the way between 15 and 16 notes per second - 230 bpm at 4 NPB:
1. I use this online tap metronome because it averages (and has other useful features) so at high speeds you don't see the result jump around influenced by fluctuations in the timing of the keyboard tap itself: https://www.all8.com/tools/bpm.htm
2. I tried tapping in real time but it is a bit tricky as the way the scale segments are is not neatly divided into fours all the way - there are 48 notes (so I should end up with 12 taps) but it is a bit difficult to follow it in fours at that speed, at least for me.
3. So I downloaded it and used VLC player, and tapped it while slowed down to 50% playback speed. Now I was reasonably sure the result was stable - I get either 115-116 for 'the nearest whole', therefore 230-232 at actual speed.
(Most accurate way to do it would be to open the audio in an editor like Wavepad, select that waveform segment from beginning to end of the sequence of 48 notes, and divide 48 by the length of the segment in seconds)
EDIT: Haha, of course I had to try that now - the 48-note segment clocks in at 3.12-3.13 seconds long, corresponding to a speed of 15.34-15.38 notes per second, i.e. 230-231 BPM at 4 notes per beat. Checks out!
4. This particular picado exercise is designed so that the descending string-crossings (from higher-pitched to lower-pitched string) are done via an 'i' finger drag - rather than going strict i-m alternation all the way. Meaning that the right hand does i,m i,m ... i,m,i-i, m,i ... m,i-i, m,i ... where i-i is always where descending string crossing occurs.
Nevertheless, I have no doubt (that video is from Feb 2011; imagine how much work he's put in since) that he can rip at the same speed or even faster using strict i-m alternation. I figure he can probably get close to or at 16 notes/second (240bpm at 4 NPB).
quote:
ORIGINAL: bahen I was in transit last couple of days, hence the delay in my reply. I'll post a few audio files in the coming days of where I am with the BPMs, just for fun.
RE: BPM metrics for technique (arpeg... (in reply to kitarist)
quote:
EDIT: Haha, of course I had to try that now - the 48-note segment clocks in at 3.12-3.13 seconds long, corresponding to a speed of 15.34-15.38 notes per second, i.e. 230-231 BPM at 4 notes per beat. Checks out!
Your effort and relentless attention to detail are appreciated. Thank you.
Posts: 14797
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: BPM metrics for technique (arpeg... (in reply to kitarist)
quote:
Nevertheless, I have no doubt (that video is from Feb 2011; imagine how much work he's put in since) that he can rip at the same speed or even faster using strict i-m alternation. I figure he can probably get close to or at 16 notes/second (240bpm at 4 NPB).
I have my doubts about that. The double i finger can’t compare to strict alternation. I’m sure he can do the trick thing even faster…however he would never need to do those “tricks” as ive seen him do often in rumba improvisation, if he was comfortable running 16 nps. (Rumba at 120bpm 32nd notes). Paco did the dirty descending run on chanela at 115…Entre Dos Aguas he needs a cleaner execution so never lets it get faster than 107. Javier conde did an unprecedented 109bpm at some point…significantly faster than Paco. Rafael cortes was never close to either of those tempos…instead he would use faster tempo but some form of cheat that makes it sound faster. Hope you get what I mean. If he could do it he would is the point.
3:36 familiar run he destroys at slower tempos, but here he barely hangs on:
RE: BPM metrics for technique (arpeg... (in reply to Grisha)
quote:
Here are some of Paco's speedy runs that are 230+ :
What about these runs?
1:07
0:36
To me, the most difficult part is not the right hand speed itself, but the right and left hand synchronisation at a high speed. Could you guys give me some advise how to synchronize both hands perfectly in picado?
Thanks, Grisha! Wow, that first example from Lorelei at 1:19:42 is an absolute monster of a picado run and so clean. I think it is the cleanest and longest of all examples above I could access so I looked at it in more detail.
I isolated in Wavepad a long sequence of about constant note speed and clarity after the four 'winding up to speed' notes, and it is 43 clean notes in 2.81 seconds, which means ~15.3 NPS i.e. 230 BPM at 4 notes per beat indeed.
Musically there is a12-note phrase design to it (there are other ways to think about it (*)), the first starts from 1st string F#, repeats save for a transition note down, then starts from 2nd string D#, then the last incomplete (7 notes before a little slip-up so I cut it off there) starts from 3rd string G.
The left hand shifts position from I to II at end of phrase 3 to avoid using LH finger 4 in what follows, so the whole run is done with LH fingers 1, 2, and 3.
Very cool stuff. So this seems incontrovertible evidence of Paco's crisp punchy picado at 230, falling free and hard like torrential rain.. I am trying to describe what it feels/sounds like to me - the inevitability of every note delivered at an overwhelming rate yet somehow feeling generated with the easiness of water coming out of a spout.
BTW the last video (Calejon del Muro) is not accessible for me (is it a Canada vs. US region thing? Anyone from Canada can see it and/or anyone from the US cannot?)
(*) The 12-note phrase is made of a 4-group consisting of establishing a starting note then approaching from below to repeat it (e.g. first such group is F#, D, F, F#), followed by four descending pairs of descending thirds (except for turning back up to repeat the first 12-note phrase).
RE: BPM metrics for technique (arpeg... (in reply to devilhand)
quote:
To me, the most difficult part is not the right hand speed itself, but the right and left hand synchronisation at a high speed. Could you guys give me some advise how to synchronize both hands perfectly in picado?
Well one thing Ricardo stresses is being locked into the rhythm as an over looked aspect. Try practicing short lines on and off the beat, to see if that helps. In other words, The focus is on the timing, the synchronization will work itself out. Obviously u might need to slow it down to be locked in, and assuming you don’t have some super inefficient fretting habits…
Thanks, Grisha! Wow, that first example from Lorelei at 1:19:42 is an absolute monster of a picado run and so clean. I think it is the cleanest and longest of all examples above I could access so I looked at it in more detail.
I isolated in Wavepad a long sequence of about constant note speed and clarity after the four 'winding up to speed' notes, and it is 43 clean notes in 2.81 seconds, which means ~15.3 NPS i.e. 230 BPM at 4 notes per beat indeed.
Musically there is a12-note phrase design to it (there are other ways to think about it (*)), the first starts from 1st string F#, repeats save for a transition note down, then starts from 2nd string D#, then the last incomplete (7 notes before a little slip-up so I cut it off there) starts from 3rd string G.
The left hand shifts position from I to II at end of phrase 3 to avoid using LH finger 4 in what follows, so the whole run is done with LH fingers 1, 2, and 3.
Very cool stuff. So this seems incontrovertible evidence of Paco's crisp punchy picado at 230, falling free and hard like torrential rain.. I am trying to describe what it feels/sounds like to me - the inevitability of every note delivered at an overwhelming rate yet somehow feeling generated with the easiness of water coming out of a spout.
BTW the last video (Calejon del Muro) is not accessible for me (is it a Canada vs. US region thing? Anyone from Canada can see it and/or anyone from the US cannot?)
(*) The 12-note phrase is made of a 4-group consisting of establishing a starting note then approaching from below to repeat it (e.g. first such group is F#, D, F, F#), followed by four descending pairs of descending thirds (except for turning back up to repeat the first 12-note phrase).
He was pushing himself in the libre parts of those tunes. In other words he was free to let the phrase breath, (some slow notes some much faster), very different than obeying a strict tempo and groove. Still we have a wall or speed limit around 115 (32nd notes, the same as 230 16ths), and he likes the descending 3rds as they permit easy string crossings. THe passion grace and fire run is just as dirty as the Chanela and it is the same speed pretty much. The action on the guitar does not permit him to push the string down to the fret wire fast enough so it sounds a little muted. Anyway, I don’t feel it is fair to use the toque libre examples for this reason of timing and control. Normally Paco won’t let the tempo move above 104-107 max because the 115 thing is simply outside of his comfort zone.
About synchronization, yes the timing is key, but it is timing of both hands independently. The left hand can do ligado faster and cleaner than the right hand can alternate, so controlling the timing of the left hand to the exact groove tempo required is the first step. In my Paco tutorial 2 a buleria picado trick was to first learn it as a ligado phrase before applying the right hand. That prevents the left hand from pushing past the speed the right hand can go (pulling it along) and going out of synchronization.
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