Welcome to one of the most active flamenco sites on the Internet. Guests can read most posts but if you want to participate click here to register.
This site is dedicated to the memory of Paco de Lucía, Ron Mitchell, Guy Williams, Linda Elvira, Philip John Lee, Craig Eros, Ben Woods, David Serva and Tom Blackshear who went ahead of us.
We receive 12,200 visitors a month from 200 countries and 1.7 million page impressions a year. To advertise on this site please contact us.
|
|
|
RE: Flamenco-related Timeline 1740 - 1881
|
You are logged in as Guest
|
|
Users viewing this topic: none
|
|
Login  | |
|
   
kitarist
Posts: 1715
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
|
 RE: Flamenco-related Timeline 1740 -... (in reply to kitarist)
|
|
|
quote:
Same researcher states that María Amaya Heredia, La Andonda, was born in 1848 1843 in Ronda.
It appears I have to move this date back by five years, so Andonda is still Serneta's junior but only by three years. ALso note details about El Fillo hijo (1831-1878), his father dying in 1854 (born in 1806), as well as Andonda - El Fillo hijo marriage and children:
"Maria Amaya Heredia "La Andonda", was born in Ronda in the alley known by the name of Los Gitanos, when the clock hands reached half past ten on the hot night of August 29, 1843. Fifth child of Baltasar Amaya Romero, gypsy, shearer by trade, a member of the family known as Los Negros de Ronda and of his wife María Heredia Montoya."
"Francisco Ortega Vargas "El Fillo [hijo]" (1831 - Oct 29, 1878), left Triana behind in 1855 at 24 years old, a year after the death of his father; Maria "La Andonda" was his wife when she was 11 years old (i.e. since 1854 - the same year that his father died).
"The couple settled in the city of Malaga where on April 16, 1856, their first son Juan Baltasar Ortega Amaya was born. The occupation that Fillo performed, as recorded in the birth registration of his son, was that of day laborer. In the city of Malaga, several more children would be born: Manuel Antonio 1858, Juan 1859 -60, José 1861; this child died at 18 months of birth.
"María Amaya La Andonda was the legitimate wife of Fillo [hijo], as it appears in all the birth inscriptions of her children where it can be read verbatim: Son of the legitimate marriage of Francisco Ortega and María Amaya"
"That la Andonda was the first reference to sing por soleá, as is written in some media, of course that is a fantasy. When La Andonda arrived in Triana, Francisco Ortega “Frasco el Colorao” had already passed through the neighbourhood where Tio Antonio Cagancho, his son Manuel, the Pelaos, etc. also lived, Paquirri el Guanté and Enrique el Mellizo were already in Cádiz, in Jerez [solea] was already sung by El Loco Mateo, Frijones and la Serneta."
This authored by A. C. Escobedo. See here:
https://www.facebook.com/231630816856683/posts/nuebos-datos-la-andonda-genealogia-y-otros-apuntes-capitulo-iicapitulo-anterior-/3216886641664404/
Obviously just from a facebook post, but is sounds based on primary sources.
Another interesting difference between the two of them - while Andonda was married at 11, had her first child at 13 and many more after, first in Malaga then other cities as the family moved, La Serneta was listed in a 1880-1881 census as '40yr old, single' - and still living in Jerez with her dad (who died shortly after and only then she moved to Utrera where her sister lived). In any case La Andonda seems to have had a lot more on her plate.
Finally, with both of them born in the 1840s, IF solea took its shape with them, the 1860s would be the earliest this could have occurred (incidentally matching Galan's dating).
_____________________________
Konstantin
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Nov. 19 2021 2:21:24
 |
|
kitarist
Posts: 1715
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
|
|
RE: Flamenco-related Timeline 1740 -... (in reply to Ricardo)
|
|
|
quote:
The Ocon guy either 1) had a photographic memory, 2) the performers he observed were able to repeat an improvised performance over and over the exact same way, or 3) he was actually a knowledgeable flamenco guitar accompanist himself and deliberately chose to encapsulate in score form a “perfect” example of what was going on for posterity.
Likely it was 1) :
"EDUARDO OCÓN (Benamocarra, 01/12/1833 - Málaga, 02/28/1901)
Pianist-organist, composer and teacher.
"A pioneer of musical nationalism, he was the founder and first director of the Malaga Conservatory.
"The connection of Ocón (baptized as José Eduardo Ocón y Rivas) with music began very early, when he entered the Malaga Cathedral as six years old. He studied theory (from music theory to composition) with the chapelmaster, Reig; and piano with the organist, Murguía. Of precocious talent (at the age of 13 he already composed La Miserere for 4 voices that was performed in the Cathedral [and he sang one of the parts himself - KZ]), at the age of 18 he obtained the position of second organist of the Cathedral. He was also a piano teacher. In 1858 at 25 he already managed to premiere at the Teatro Real in Madrid (in this case, a Cantata composed in honour of Prince Alfonso).
"In 1867, at the age of 34, he went to the Paris Conservatory (then the most important in Europe) where he studied organ with Benoit and improved his counterpoint with Ambroise Thomas [and where he befriended composer Charles Gounod and composer and director of the Paris Conservatoire Daniel Auber - KZ].
"He returned to Malaga in 1870, again as an organist, to which he added the direction of the Philharmonic Society, in which he founded a School of Music in 1871 where he applied all the modern methods and knowledge acquired in Paris. He married the German pianist Ida Borchardt, who, from then on, will be his inspiring muse, especially for his piano works."
From http://ommalaga.com/Conservatorio/Textos/Eduardo_Ocon_y_el_Miserere.htm and a couple of other places.
_____________________________
Konstantin
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Nov. 19 2021 6:15:00
|
|
Beni2
Posts: 139
Joined: Apr. 23 2018
|
|
RE: Flamenco-related Timeline 1740 -... (in reply to kitarist)
|
|
|
quote:
Finally, with both of them born in the 1840s, IF solea took its shape with them, the 1860s would be the earliest this could have occurred (incidentally matching Galan's dating).
Edited:
My feeling is that all of the cante jondo forms arose around 1820 with generic titles of playera and soledades mostly set syllabically. At least some of the soleares take their first melodic lines from fandango forms and/or the adhan. 1850-60 sounds reasonable for some of the melodies to be attributed and perhaps they existed in a form we might recognize.
But, where is Paquirri in that equation? He is older so if the attributions to him are correct, it would fit Gamboa's hypothesis that the solea spread from Cadiz to Jerez, then Sevilla.
Anyway, you've collected a lot of valuable information. When I started (around 1998), the only way to nerd out was to buy books, go to the library (UNM has a great collection because of flamenco's prominence), or go to the Spanish listening lab ( they had Rito). Great job man.
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Nov. 19 2021 7:55:54
|
|
Ricardo
Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
|
|
RE: Flamenco-related Timeline 1740 -... (in reply to Beni2)
|
|
|
quote:
But, where is Paquirri in that equation? He is older so if the attributions to him are correct, it would fit Gamboa's hypothesis that the solea spread from Granada to Jerez, then Sevilla.
Cadiz-jerez-Sevilla you meant. Well, the Calderon book about that meeting of Gitanos.
is scary to me because a lot is revealed. It is such a familiar “flamenco” scene the way it is described, and the nick-name dropping of artists (unknown to us today except for a couple, but dozens are listed) implies to me this flamenco artist culture thing is very very old. Already they describe some songs, we don’t know exactly what those are, as very old already. Planeta is the patriarch somehow of this group in … TRIANA. Gitanos are coming in from all around to that central hub for some bizarre reason. Artists, singers and dancers coming from Cadiz with “new” songs etc, malaguenas not for dancing for example…I don’t see how there can be a shift of emphasis from some OTHER type of music tradition to the solea/buleria/siguiriyas we understand today for this group people. The way it is all described is eerily identical to the way this group operates today, as if nothing changed (except they used bandurrias with guitars, and tambourines, and today cajon and electric bass 😂 ). “flamenco” is never said, only cantadores and their tonadas etc. How is it this guy from a different region ends up being PATRIARCH (if you don’t know it is like a king Solomon who makes law desicions and settles desputes, provides loans, orders executions, etc no joke) but dies way over in malaga? And he is giving vocal coach advice to fillo at the start while carrying around a super fancy rolls Royce guitar….
The whole thing was horrifying for me to read because I feel our flamenco is trapped in a time warp that goes wayyyyy back. Only some names have changed of song forms, not the forms themselves. Even artist nick names didn’t change. It’s creepy. So Paquirri is just another guy who learned from his predecessors… hence an 11 year old performing in public.
So we have 13 year old Andonda having kids while 13 year old Ocon is scoring miserere. Yep, he was a little Mozart. To put in perspective, miserere is the tune teenage Mozart heard twice in the Vatican and he and his dad got in trouble (almost excommunicated) because the Pope kept that score in a vault, but Mozart wrote it out by ear. It is the source of his “genius photographic memory” legend. So Ocon probably saw flamenco several times and totally got it at a deep level and wrote it down exactly (like in the Amadeus movie when he meets saileri 😂). There is no darn way Andonda OR Serneta invented those songs. Maybe they riffed on them or made new lyrics, but 1860s score shows it was rock solid popular song already, not “in development”.
EDIT…still going through Ocon music book, and the Zapateado intro is our Tanguillo compas phrases.
_____________________________
CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Nov. 19 2021 13:55:29
|
|
Beni2
Posts: 139
Joined: Apr. 23 2018
|
|
RE: Flamenco-related Timeline 1740 -... (in reply to Ricardo)
|
|
|
quote:
There is no darn way Andonda OR Serneta invented those songs. Maybe they riffed on them or made new lyrics, but 1860s score shows it was rock solid popular song already, not “in development”.
I agree with that...but riffed on what? Fandangos, Soledades, Playeras, all have characteristics that flamenco inherited. quote:
The way it is all described is eerily identical to the way this group operates today, as if nothing changed (except they used bandurrias with guitars, and tambourines, and today cajon and electric bass 😂 ). “flamenco” is never said, only cantadores and their tonadas etc. How is it this guy from a different region ends up being PATRIARCH (if you don’t know it is like a king Solomon who makes law desicions and settles desputes, provides loans, orders executions, etc no joke) but dies way over in malaga? And he is giving vocal coach advice to fillo at the start while carrying around a super fancy rolls Royce guitar….
Musical form is not musical content, nor is cultural form cultural content. I agree it looks very similar but that is like saying I am Mexican because New Mexico was a part of Mexico and shares the name. In a sense, "No he dicho una mentira, pero una verdad tampoco." I respectfully agree to disagree and most of the scholars working on these problems are in agreement that there is a shift from soledades as a popular idiom to soleares as a flamenco idiom. For me the question is not who created flamenco, but rather, where do the traces of the different cultures that are usually said to be embedded in it originate. And can we discover them? Some of them we know...
quote:
So we have 13 year old Andonda having kids while 13 year old Ocon is scoring miserere He is 41 when he publishes Cantos in 1874. If you read backward in time, that soledad looks little like soledad that we know. Oscillation between I-II-I, accompanying a c in the melody with E major or Dm/FM7, resolving to CM over a g in the melody, etc., no resolution on 3 as in the bulerias por solea. If on the other hand you look at the baroque guitar strums, the accents that changing a harmony on beat two produce, it looks just as much baroque as flamenco.
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Nov. 19 2021 20:47:08
|
|
Ricardo
Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
|
|
RE: Flamenco-related Timeline 1740 -... (in reply to Beni2)
|
|
|
quote:
I agree with that...but riffed on what? Fandangos, Soledades, Playeras, all have characteristics that flamenco inherited.
If we can agree that Joaquin de Paula 2 is a known cante melody, we next must agree that the Ocon score is showing THAT style (that might be a problem based on the rest of your message), and from that accept that this known melody has some other origin other than Joaquin (not only because he was not born yet but because we know all the solea are somehow related to something older melodically speaking, since they all ask for the same chord structure and rhythm). So I am saying she “riffed” or interpreted in her own way, whatever that might mean, the known song that is now understood as the root of Solea. Making up lyrics that work I hope is understood. Sometimes they (melody style and lyric set) work as a unit but I also hope you understand that they don’t HAVE to. My point is her melodic interpretation might have been slightly off or unique compared to the older known melodies (called Soleadad or not, we don’t really know), plus her version and lyric delivery or creation of new lyric might constitute the attribution…not a literal creation of a new melody and form. Soledad and Playeras as TITLES of music pieces don’t have ANY flamenco characteristics for sure because we don’t even know WTF they were!!!!! Well, we have the score books and to me it is clear what has what characteristics, but I will get to that.
quote:
I respectfully agree to disagree and most of the scholars working on these problems are in agreement that there is a shift from soledades as a popular idiom to soleares as a flamenco idiom. For me the question is not who created flamenco, but rather, where do the traces of the different cultures that are usually said to be embedded in it originate. And can we discover them? Some of them we know...
I don’t know how they could agree on such a thing if they don’t even know what the darn music was. And I don’t get the difference between “popular” and “flamenco” as separate…since flamenco is from the “people” in the region anyway. The implication there is solea evolved from some universal popular folk music then became focused and elitist “flamenco”? If that were the case the origins would be more known and obvious. Like seguidilla (popular and known and obvious) to siguiriyas (strange, exotic, small group of people doing it). The word yes, the music no freaking way, they are not related at all.
quote:
He is 41 when he publishes Cantos in 1874. If you read backward in time, that soledad looks little like soledad that we know. Oscillation between I-II-I, accompanying a c in the melody with E major or Dm/FM7, resolving to CM over a g in the melody, etc., no resolution on 3 as in the bulerias por solea. If on the other hand you look at the baroque guitar strums, the accents that changing a harmony on beat two produce, it looks just as much baroque as flamenco.
Wow, ok, so you don’t see what I am seeing at all. This is a huge problem because this is not subjective IMO, the elements I described were crystal clear. The guitar part has two or three extra threes and a missing three situation….THOSE are subjective things to argue. But the objective thing, which is the important thing, is the overall picture and its detail of alignment to practice. So how can I proceed? I would start with asking you to please up load examples of how you would accompany Santiago donday or Moneo from the Cante accomp thread as a start, to make sure we are on the same page regarding guitar and cante alignment in general. I don’t mean that to be condescending because it is a way to communicate the deeper meaning of the form IMO. The next is to take it measure by measure and explain how I am interpreting the score. I mean the ONLY thing I would alter to the score would be those odd 3 groups (which may have either been errors of the guitarist or ocon’s memory, impossible to know). And one of the first falsetas has a half compas phrase that I might repeat to make it cuadrao, but honestly I could leave that in too. The quarter-note chords with drum roll marks can be interpreted with rasgueados of choice (Castro Buenadia messed up with an opportunity there). So, for now I will address your points directly:
1. Accompanying a C in the melody? There is no C target note in the cante of this style (I say Joaquin 2). The C is signaling the drop down to A which is the target. The deliver is a bit late because the A lands on 10. The guitar seems to be ignoring it but the F chord is the normal 1,2,3 thing, but we can think of it as the 7-10 half compas. The guitar returns to E on 10. Hopefully you know how typical that is? E remate can be 456 OR 10 11 12 anytime. So it is arbitrary except the SINGER starts on 9, so we interpret that as 3 because of what happens next.
2. Resolving to Cmajor over a g in melody. I could show examples upon examples but for a start the Juan Talega performance of Joaquin 2 that is both on Norman’s page as exemplary and Carol Whitney transcription which you can SEE it emphasized with F# to boot. Pastora has examples of this too, Cagancho etc. Listen out for the sung G in the cambio there are gazzillions more examples brother.
3. When you realize the word “Caida” was the cambio above, it means the compas of the singing is a bit late so the guitarist waited, much like moraito does, to put it on the 1,2,3 of the next cycle. If you counted (or felt) that half compas between the repeat of the first line of verse correctly, then you can see what happened here. If you didn’t count it correctly and ignored the cante and compas alignment, then the C is 789 and F comes on 10. I hate to say it but that is not subjective, that is simply the wrong way to view it. It is reasons like that that flamencos are rolling there eyes at people that count the compas. If the guitarist had played the C a half compas earlier, it would have been the annoying type of anticipation thing singers hate. You are supposed to FOLLOW the singer not lead him.
4.The down beats of each 3/8 bar are 12,3,6, or 9. The chord changes on beat 2 you see correspond to our 1,2,3 or 7,8,9 10 phrases depending on what is going on because they bounce off the 12 or 6 accent. When they bounce off 3 it is either because of the 4,5,6 remate, OR the half compas situation. The odd 3’s would have to assigned a number that breaks the 12’s or 6’s patterns.
I just want to add, I am glad there are no stupid andalusian cadences in the thing!!! 
_____________________________
CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Nov. 19 2021 22:13:18
|
|
Beni2
Posts: 139
Joined: Apr. 23 2018
|
|
RE: Flamenco-related Timeline 1740 -... (in reply to Ricardo)
|
|
|
quote:
Wow, ok, so you don’t see what I am seeing at all. This is a huge problem because this is not subjective IMO, the elements I described were crystal clear. The guitar part has two or three extra threes and a missing three situation….THOSE are subjective things to argue. But the objective thing, which is the important thing, is the overall picture and its detail of alignment to practice. So how can I proceed? I would start with asking you to please up load examples of how you would accompany Santiago donday or Moneo from the Cante accomp thread as a start, to make sure we are on the same page regarding guitar and cante alignment in general. I don’t mean that to be condescending because it is a way to communicate the deeper meaning of the form IMO. The next is to take it measure by measure and explain how I am interpreting the score. I mean the ONLY thing I would alter to the score would be those odd 3 groups (which may have either been errors of the guitarist or ocon’s memory, impossible to know). And one of the first falsetas has a half compas phrase that I might repeat to make it cuadrao, but honestly I could leave that in too. The quarter-note chords with drum roll marks can be interpreted with rasgueados of choice (Castro Buenadia messed up with an opportunity there). So, for now I will address your points directly:
Are we talking about the same piece, the soledad in the 1874 edition, page 89.
I guess notquote:
Wow, ok, so you don’t see what I am seeing at all. This is a huge problem because this is not subjective IMO, the elements I described were crystal clear.
Same here. This is not Joaquin 2. Ocon and Joaquin 2 have nothing in common. Before going any further, I am talking about the solea of OCON on page 89. This melody is associated with fandango and fandango derivd melodies (See Castro Buendia:45)
.quote:
I would start with asking you to please up load examples of how you would accompany Santiago donday or Moneo from the Cante accomp thread as a start, to make sure we are on the same page regarding guitar and cante alignment in general. I don’t mean that to be condescending because it is a way to communicate the deeper meaning of the form IMO.
Hold on.
So we are on the same page, which Moneo, and which Donday?
quote:
I just want to add, I am glad there are no stupid andalusian cadences in the thing!!!
It's found everywhere in Baroque guitar music, including the forms that flamenco gets its materials from; fandagos, Jacaras, Folias, Passacalles, etc. I just began looking through Ocon...and there it is. In the Bass A-(c)-G-F-E. The A supports an FM7 and the C admittedly breaks the flow but in the context of the tetrachord history (in Spain and Italy, and associated with lament forms) it is one variation of many, sometimes chordal, sometimes arising out of counterpoint. 
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Nov. 19 2021 22:50:02
|
|
Ricardo
Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
|
|
RE: Flamenco-related Timeline 1740 -... (in reply to Beni2)
|
|
|
quote:
Same here. This is not Joaquin 2. Ocon and Joaquin 2 have nothing in common. Before going any further, I am talking about the solea of OCON on page 89. This melody is associated with fandango and fandango derivd melodies (See Castro Buendia:45)
Yes, well we have a big problem with interpreting this evidence is what it comes down to. The scale up to C from E or A, the scale down from E or D to A or whatever…. These sung scales are in EVERY Phrygian cante. Trying to point a connection to fandango of a tiny fragment (g#ABC? Lol) out of context of the full lyric delivery and structure is setting up a false equivalence. The melody goes up to C and stays put in fandango but drops down to A in solea, or Frijones 2 goes up to D then down to A, and on it goes. Just scales are not what I’m seeing as correlation…. it is structure, melodic structure, and harmony alignment, and timing. Castro Buendia has rewritten the score to show timing alignment but honestly gets it wrong in spots. And the darn lyrics as attached to the melody is the last piece that fits perfect, fandango lyrics don’t work the same way. Just look at fandango por solea to see the obvious error with trying to equate melodic fragments as a basis of correspondence.
quote:
Hold on.
So we are on the same page, which Moneo, and which Donday?
Any, either, but especially ALL the examples that use solxbul compas. The point was it was argued those were miss aligned and unaccompaniable examples, and I tried to show a way to deal with them as per things I have noticed. I admitted in dance world that type of singing doesn’t work, but there is an entire different dimension to the art of cante accompaniment when this concept of decoupling the melody from the compas is accepted. So my examples stand there and one of them I did twice to show how things are different por medio por Arriba etc, and HOPED that others that understood this thing would contribute even other examples to show the options….but crickets over there. My versions are not the only way to do it, but there can be of course totally wrong ways. Henry examples show a steady learning of these concept as he early on was not aligned always but after many attempts he started to really get it. But the donday thing was so clear to me and even Norman thought he was hearing siguiriyas in there (again scale fragments are not structure, Alah akbar is heard in Joaquin 1 and siguiriyas) and hearing my guitar part clarified that structure and he thought it was a funny mistake on his part. So as a COMMUNICATION tool, that exercise of accompaniment of cante minus guitar is essential IMO. Perhaps if you try it and discover something you weren’t subjectively aware of before, that awareness coupled with your reading ability will bring the Ocon score into focus?
quote:
It's found everywhere in Baroque guitar music, including the forms that flamenco gets its materials from; fandagos, Jacaras, Folias, Passacalles, etc. I just began looking through Ocon...and there it is. In the Bass A-(c)-G-F-E. The A supports an FM7 and the C admittedly breaks the flow but in the context of the tetrachord history (in Spain and Italy, and associated with lament forms) it is one variation of many, sometimes chordal, sometimes arising out of counterpoint.
Well I agree the descending scale fragment AGFE as a melody (tetra chord or scale fragment in descending sequence) occurs all over the darn place in all music from Greek times to the present pop garbage. And yes the solea progression contains those notes in the F C Dm/F (or Dm9/A as it occurred on occasion as the incidental chord voicing) landing on E maj. My aversion is to the SPECIFIC voicing of the triads (or7th chords) Am G F E. Yes voice polyphony shows chords but we know the strings of the guitar are not literally following voice leading rules, there is a lot of jumping around with guitar chords. So if we start letting go right there, of this ridiculous holding on to ancient tetrachords and polyphonic voices and admit we have a basic chord structure that is DIFFERENT (AmGFE does NOT equal Fmj7 C7 F or Dm or fancier stuff to E, at best substitutes), then can’t we admit how telling it is to see the 1874 publication (collected earlier so 1860 target plus or minus 5 years) is showing NOT the literal Andalucia cadence touted as fundamental, but instead, the ACTUAL progression we still use (Fmj7 C Dm/F E)?????????
_____________________________
CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Nov. 21 2021 17:00:09
|
|
BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
|
|
RE: Flamenco-related Timeline 1740 -... (in reply to kitarist)
|
|
|
In our discussion above regarding the etymology and origin of the term "flamenco," I think most of us concluded that it refers to, and is associated with, Flanders and Flemish. I have just come across further evidence to support that conclusion. My wife's Christmas gift to me is a book entitled "Conquering the Pacific," about the first Spanish voyage from Mexico to Manila and return. The author is a University of California, Davis history professor who conducted much research in the Archives of the Indies in Seville and other sources.
After the 1564-65 ida y vuelta from Mexico to Manila and return, another voyage was launched to Manila in 1566. The ship "San Jeronimo" had put into Ujelang Atoll, in today's Marshall Islands, to take on water and give the crew a rest. Among those aboard was a Flemish gunner by the name of Juan Enrique Flamenco. Whether his surname was actually "Flamenco," or whether it was meant, as some names were in those days, to convey his origin, i.e., Juan Enrique "the fleming," it clearly is further evidence of "flamenco" being derived from "Flemish."
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Jan. 3 2022 14:32:13
|
|
Ricardo
Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
|
|
RE: Flamenco-related Timeline 1740 -... (in reply to BarkellWH)
|
|
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: BarkellWH
In our discussion above regarding the etymology and origin of the term "flamenco," I think most of us concluded that it refers to, and is associated with, Flanders and Flemish. I have just come across further evidence to support that conclusion. My wife's Christmas gift to me is a book entitled "Conquering the Pacific," about the first Spanish voyage from Mexico to Manila and return. The author is a University of California, Davis history professor who conducted much research in the Archives of the Indies in Seville and other sources.
After the 1564-65 ida y vuelta from Mexico to Manila and return, another voyage was launched to Manila in 1566. The ship "San Jeronimo" had put into Ujelang Atoll, in today's Marshall Islands, to take on water and give the crew a rest. Among those aboard was a Flemish gunner by the name of Juan Enrique Flamenco. Whether his surname was actually "Flamenco," or whether it was meant, as some names were in those days, to convey his origin, i.e., Juan Enrique "the fleming," it clearly is further evidence of "flamenco" being derived from "Flemish."
Bill
I think that is not in question at all (Flanders and Flamenco people and stuff since 500+ years ago), however the issue is connecting the dots to the music and people that play it. The simple fact is that history shows the people and music in 1830s was NOT called flamenco and then suddenly by 1860’s it was a well established reality that the music and people were “flamenco” in that region at least (Sevilla-Cadiz-Malaga). One detail that holds in my mind: I know that Solea siguiriya Buleria etc are 100% “flamenco”, however the Fandango in general is not always such, along with Sevillana for example. It is easy to see that flamenco singers and players could have taken known Fandangos, and “flamencoized them”, but the issue remains. Where is the line drawn between the styles? Are fandangos de Alonso NOT flamenco, but Malaguenas and Cante de la Mina ARE flamenco? If so, then we need to understand the connection to the Solea/siguiriya family of cante jondo that the cante Levante seems to share. My instincts have been that right there the origins of flamenco are hiding, as the word itself binds these songs together in a “bundle” as Pericon once said. But there remains a possibility that Fandango itself should be considered flamenco as well. I can’t believe nobody has found yet the origin of that simple copla structure (earliest I have seen with my eyes was the Lopez harpsichord solo from before 1820, and he admits it is variations on the known song form).
_____________________________
CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Jan. 3 2022 19:09:26
|
|
BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
|
|
RE: Flamenco-related Timeline 1740 -... (in reply to Piwin)
|
|
|
quote:
¡Ay mi madre!, cada vez que intento
enchufar mi cable USB sin mirar,
Llega de soslayo y no se conecta. Tanto putear,
¡ay que dolor más profundo!
Quizá poniendo más fuerza.
Entra, coño, entra.
¿Qué dice? ¡No me joda!
¡Es el puerto VGA!
Playera del Piwin, 2022.
Not a bad playera at all, Piwin. As we have been advised that a "playera" refers to any song associated with ports, however, I prefer playeras singing the praises of various ports produced in the Douro region of Portugal, particular those with a vintage of at least 40 years.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Jan. 4 2022 14:06:15
|
|
BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
|
|
RE: Flamenco-related Timeline 1740 -... (in reply to devilhand)
|
|
|
quote:
My post was not about why. What I want to point out was how flamenco as a term used for gitanos and their music might have become popular. The rest is history.
But "why" is the real question. Even assuming you are correct in thinking flamenco is the term given to the music and dance of Gitanos by some editor of an Andalusian newspaper or magazine in the early/mid 1800's, the question still remains "why."
Since the term "flamenco," as a derivation of "Flemish," has been around since the 16th century, why was it applied to the music that we know of as "flamenco"? Why "flamenco" and not some other term?
It seems logical to assume that the earliest use of the term "flamenco" to describe the music must have been based on a perceived relationship with Flemish music, or the people who performed it, at the time. Whether or not it was flamenco as we have known it since the 19th century or was some form that evolved into flamenco as we know it, is open to speculation and remains a mystery. But unless and until we have primary source material that answers the question "why," speculation is all we are left with.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Jan. 9 2022 17:43:50
|
|
 New Messages |
 No New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/ New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/o New Messages |
 Locked w/ New Messages |
 Locked w/o New Messages |
|
Post New Thread
Reply to Message
Post New Poll
Submit Vote
Delete My Own Post
Delete My Own Thread
Rate Posts
|
|
|
Forum Software powered by ASP Playground Advanced Edition 2.0.5
Copyright © 2000 - 2003 ASPPlayground.NET |
0.109375 secs.
|
Printable Version
