La Rosa

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La Rosa

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Morante

Posts: 2179
Joined: Nov. 21 2010

La Rosa

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 3 2021 11:34:56

Ricardo

Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: La Rosa (in reply to Morante)

That opening falseta was a head scratcher…. Didn’t think he was ever gonna get to E

I always only knew this version of Rosas with the E minor chord, but now I’m listening closer those tonos seem imposed on a melody that can stay in major.

http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=156803&appid=&p=&mpage=21&key=rosas&tmode=&smode=&s=#188803

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 3 2021 20:19:07

mecmachin

Posts: 171
Joined: Aug. 7 2010

RE: La Rosa (in reply to Morante)

arza!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 3 2021 20:47:30

Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: La Rosa (in reply to Ricardo)

Great performance. Thanks Morante.

I learned Rosas copping it off a Niñ0 Ricardo LP, since there weren't any cantaores/as in Austin in the late 1950s-early 1960s.

It was a joint effort with Eddie Freeman students George Gamez and Jerry Lobdill. I have a yellowed manuscript beside the keyboard, in Jerry's highly legible handwriting. In my own hand at the top it says "Rosas (Ricardo) from Epic recording Musica Flamenca." I'm pretty sure I still have the LP. Though my LPs are now unpacked they aren't organized yet, so i haven't shuffled through them to find it.

I've looked for the piece on the internet before, but only found it this time, titled "Mellizo."

It's in E-major, with excursions into other tonalities at about 1:17 and 1:44.

RNJ

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 4 2021 5:11:24

Ricardo

Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: La Rosa (in reply to Richard Jernigan)

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 4 2021 16:09:25

BarkellWH

Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: La Rosa (in reply to Richard Jernigan)

quote:

I've looked for the piece on the internet before, but only found it this time, titled "Mellizo."

The photo on the album cover shows Nino Ricardo playing left-handed. Was it possible the negative was reversed? All the photos I have seen of him show him playing right-handed. Was he ambidextrous playing the guitar?

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 4 2021 16:27:58

Morante

Posts: 2179
Joined: Nov. 21 2010

RE: La Rosa (in reply to BarkellWH)

The great maestro Juan Martín (aka John Martin) says that Alegrías en Mi are also known as Rosas. He says " the passage in E menor was being played in el Corral de la Morería about 1963 and quickly became popular with other guitaristas."

This is how flamenco becomes deformed: La Rosa originally was a cante, now mostly forgotten. Many of the variations of tono are inventions of guitarrists.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 4 2021 16:51:01

Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: La Rosa (in reply to BarkellWH)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BarkellWH

quote:

I've looked for the piece on the internet before, but only found it this time, titled "Mellizo."

The photo on the album cover shows Nino Ricardo playing left-handed. Was it possible the negative was reversed? All the photos I have seen of him show him playing right-handed. Was he ambidextrous playing the guitar?

Bill

I didn't even notice. Of course, Niño Ricardo played right handed. A new low in flamenco guitar re-issues.

RNJ

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 4 2021 23:56:43

Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: La Rosa (in reply to Morante)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Morante

This is how flamenco becomes deformed: La Rosa originally was a cante, now mostly forgotten. Many of the variations of tono are inventions of guitarrists.

Don Ramon was deforming quite a bit back in the 78 rpm days.

Like Ricardo I was used to the version that modulates to E-minor occasionally. Mariana Cornejo is the first I have noticed who stays in E-major all the way through--but I can't swear that nobody was doing that during my first trip to Spain 63 years ago.

Didn't take much searching though, to find La Niña de los Peines staying in E-major all the way through:

Is Mariana's version deformed relative to this?

RNJ

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 5 2021 3:14:54

Morante

Posts: 2179
Joined: Nov. 21 2010

RE: La Rosa (in reply to Richard Jernigan)

Here is another version

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 5 2021 13:21:40

Ricardo

Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: La Rosa (in reply to Morante)

quote:

This is how flamenco becomes deformed: La Rosa originally was a cante, now mostly forgotten. Many of the variations of tono are inventions of guitarrists.

I have looked at very early wax cylinder recordings of cantes I was studying to see how things evolved, and yes it is often the guitar that adds things. Do you know who might have been the first to record la Rosa?

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 5 2021 15:15:10

Ricardo

Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: La Rosa (in reply to Richard Jernigan)

quote:

Is Mariana's version deformed relative to this?

Well first of all it is a different melody altogether. But what is interesting is that the first phrase is major, but the concluding phrase “terciopelo” for example that repeats has the flat third implying minor key change after all (the guitar is ignoring the alteration each time). She is doing each verse the same way. Because it is fast buleria the change flies by.

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 5 2021 15:27:37

Morante

Posts: 2179
Joined: Nov. 21 2010

RE: La Rosa (in reply to Ricardo)

http://larazonincorporea.blogspot.com/2011/05/el-nombre-de-la-rosa.html

Could be posible that is just a variant of the guitarras: it is said that is from Sanlúcar, but it could be an invention de a cantaor who like the harmony of the guitar

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 5 2021 15:29:40

Ricardo

Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: La Rosa (in reply to Morante)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Morante

http://larazonincorporea.blogspot.com/2011/05/el-nombre-de-la-rosa.html

Could be posible that is just a variant of the guitarras: it is said that is from Sanlúcar, but it could be an invention de a cantaor who like the harmony of the guitar

Nice blog. Is there further reading regarding Pericon’s anecdote regarding the flamenco partituras of 1512? I know they sort of make fun of that, claiming Cadiz took the best songs and sent the rest to jerez and Sevilla 😂😂😂! But I’m sure flamencologists have looked into what the origin of that music might have been exactly.

Nevermind I found the source. 1975 book Las mil y una historia de pericón

https://www.sonidosnegros.com/pericoacuten-de-cadiz.html

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 8 2021 16:20:54