Welcome to one of the most active flamenco sites on the Internet. Guests can read most posts but if you want to participate click here to register.
This site is dedicated to the memory of Paco de Lucía, Ron Mitchell, Guy Williams, Linda Elvira, Philip John Lee, Craig Eros, Ben Woods, David Serva and Tom Blackshear who went ahead of us.
We receive 12,200 visitors a month from 200 countries and 1.7 million page impressions a year. To advertise on this site please contact us.
|
|
|
RE: Is this an authentic Conde?
|
You are logged in as Guest
|
|
Users viewing this topic: none
|
|
Login  | |
|
   
BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
|
 RE: Is this an authentic Conde? (in reply to RobF)
|
|
|
quote:
This amulet, with its Aztec-themed abstracted rendition....
This has been a very enlightening exchange for me, as I have always thought that an Aztec-themed Fustero, in the Aztec (Mexica) language Nahuatl, referred to the obsidian knife used by Mexica priests to cut out the beating heart of sacrificial victims. I now find that it has been appropriated by certain luthiers, or by extension to some who have bought their guitars, to refer to tuners. Meanwhile, specialists in linguistics are searching for the Aztec (Mexica) Rosetta Stone to determine how the Aztec-themed Fustero made the language leap from Nahuatl to the luthier's shop. I sense a charge of cultural appropriation will soon be made.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Jul. 25 2021 22:26:27
 |
|
Ricardo
Posts: 14797
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
|
|
RE: Is this an authentic Conde? (in reply to RobF)
|
|
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: RobF
Well, I don’t know how feeling originality or quality has no bearing on value constitutes a wider view, but I also recognize there is nothing to be gained by continuing the discussion. I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree.
I have seen prospective buyers pass on guitars that had too high bone saddle or skinny nut etc, on $5000+ guitars and STRING BRAND. Or get excited by those things, buy it, then upon changing strings to a familiar brand are disappointed. Basically the items that are meant to be adjusted or replaced very easily or cheaply are having a heavy influence on price tag which doesn’t really make sense to those of us that see the guitar as THE important tool that it is. I have often tried to explain to students to not make the judgement of a guitar by those minor things typically (not talking about the wrong neck angle situation where the bone is 10mm and buzzing notes).
In all honesty I feel this extends to the other aspects of the guitar that get changed by wear, namely tap plates and finally, after years of use/abuse, tuners or pegs. I agree oiling them will extend the life, but the idea that the tuner type/make affects the price tag but strings don’t seems the point of disagreement here. Of course the ratio of change of strings to change set of tuners is 1000s:1, but the idea is the same. So here is a thought experiment.
Let’s say you see a nice perfectly built guitar for sale by a Luthier you don’t know with low grade tuners and your student or friend wants to buy the guitar but not happy about the bone saddle and cheap strings. As a builder/enthusiast you observe the tuners and saddle and strings can be changed or upgraded to make a goldilocks guitar for your friend. Would you not suggest it to the Luthier to please change the tuners and saddle/strings and they have a deal? And if the luthier tried to up the price on such a thing (cuz of tuners of course) would you then say “the guitar will no longer be original, so the price comes down to the original offer”?
It just seems odd that Changing a set of tuners downgrades the originality of guitar as if it is a car or something like changing oil and tires makes a new car a “used” one, even if the new tires are higher quality. I feel that is where Echi is coming from. I am all for getting educated on what tuners COST based on facts you laid out. But only because of an understood need to REPLACE them at ANYTIME….from the moment I bring the guitar home.
One last analogy. I know that the Tap plate on flamenco guitars is a big issue. Like a protective film on the thing at the store, or I have been told DONT DO GOLPES!! When trying a guitar in a shop. As if the eventual owner wants to treat her like a virgin and give her the first golpe. This is ridiculous. If anything, learning how to change a tap plate, as a player, has provided me with a piece of mind and saved me hundreds of dollars from paying a Luthier to do the NECESSARY operation. At the end of the day, nice guitars are not cars and they DON”T lose money in the used market typically.
_____________________________
CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Jul. 26 2021 16:21:52
|
|
RobF
Posts: 1611
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
|
|
RE: Is this an authentic Conde? (in reply to Ricardo)
|
|
|
quote:
Would you not suggest it to the Luthier to please change the tuners and saddle/strings and they have a deal? And if the luthier tried to up the price on such a thing (cuz of tuners of course) would you then say “the guitar will no longer be original, so the price comes down to the original offer”?
I never suggested anything like that.
To reiterate my position; changing out a component such as the tuners on an instrument after it has left the shop means it is no longer original. Why is that concept so controversial? It is what the word means, for cripe's sake. If the original tuners were pieces of crap then upgrading the tuners to a higher quality machine is just that, an upgrade. If originality is important just save the original tuners. If you ask a maker to upgrade the tuners then it’s reasonable to expect the maker will charge you for the upgrade. If this is done at original point of sale, put it on the receipt. Depending on the guitar, an after market upgrade may or may not affect the resale value. Just save the old machines if that is a concern. In the case of Richard’s Romanillos guitar or your Mom’s Hauser, any alteration will almost certainly have a negative effect on the value.
Throughout this discussion I’ve been amazed at how what I’ve been saying has been twisted and misinterpreted to fit whatever agenda the reader possesses. It can only mean I’m not very clear in my wording, I’m not blaming anyone else. These are mountains out of molehills. If a guitar is a tool and its tuners and golpeador have been swapped out there's nothing wrong with that. It is what it is. But, it is no longer original. Period. It’s up to the market to then decide on its value. Saying condition has no bearing on resale value, well, I just don’t know how you’ve arrived at that conclusion, as each used instrument is unique and is valued as such and will only realize what the market will bear.
As far as value goes, just reread my earlier posts and it can be seen I never suggested a lack of originality always implies a decrease in value. I suggested expensive tuners were being swapped out for cheap ones and said I abhorred the practice. You and Echi have your own spin on this, but you are placing much more significance and interpretation to the word 'original' than I ever did, or than what the actual meaning of the word holds.
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Jul. 26 2021 17:49:22
|
|
estebanana
Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
|
|
RE: Is this an authentic Conde? (in reply to RobF)
|
|
|
Gee whiz what a truly delightful high jacking of this thread.
Here’s a fine point about tuners today, so many precision capable outfits are making tuners today that vintage tuners can be rebuilt or copied to a high quality. There’s non need for the bone picking from either side of this argument. Can’t we all just get along and revel in the transformation of the worlds most boring condensed milk traffic cone thread into a glorious free for all of free association?
Back to your corners you animals.
I tend to agree changing tuners sometimes bothers me, I don’t really call it unoriginal, I think it’s more of an adaptation to better hardware or in some cases an adulteration. Today a worn out original tuner set can be rebuilt, gears and grip shafts can be replaced too, as can rollers. Plates I would argue are the identity of the tuner, plates create the impression of quality and style.
So let’s break it down even further, because I often retain the plate of a particular tuner and replace rollers to change color from black to white or change from straight rollers to rollers with Teflon spacers and end bearings. Or who has not replaced a tuner grip either for wear or to change all six to a new style of material. But you know what I haven’t changed? Plates. I keep the plates and build the malfunctioning tuner to a working tuner around the plate.
I agree with Ricardo, tap plates, bridge saddle, tuners, pegs all replaceable parts and guitar remains true to original.
I would add the frets and even the fingerboard is a replacement part, and I’ll go one or two further. Ribs are replaceable parts and so are bridges in an extreme case, but I’ll call a guitar unoriginal if the bridge isn’t from the maker. The top and neck is really the only I thing I consider elements you cannot replace. But for argument sake, let’s stop at the fingerboard as the last replaceable part.
What determines the final value of a guitar that’s had components changed are a series of value judgments based on who did the work, how well it was done and when it was done and why.
All these things can have been replaced and the guitar may lose value because of various mistakes, but accurately carried out there is no harm.
Tuner swapping is a game like couples swinging, you, your guitar and God are the only ones who need to know about it. Guys who who brag about tuner swapping are more annoying than those neo hippies that go to Burning Man every summer and spend all winter in the pub telling you what they did ‘on the playa’.
Nobody cares, really. Buy a round and talk about politics like a normal jerk.
Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px
 Attachment (1)
_____________________________
https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Jul. 26 2021 20:22:29
|
|
 New Messages |
 No New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/ New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/o New Messages |
 Locked w/ New Messages |
 Locked w/o New Messages |
|
Post New Thread
Reply to Message
Post New Poll
Submit Vote
Delete My Own Post
Delete My Own Thread
Rate Posts
|
|
|
Forum Software powered by ASP Playground Advanced Edition 2.0.5
Copyright © 2000 - 2003 ASPPlayground.NET |
0.09375 secs.
|
Printable Version
