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RE: Is this an authentic Conde?
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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 RE: Is this an authentic Conde? (in reply to Richard Jernigan)
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quote:
He also gave me a 1920s Hamilton pocket watch with a gold case and chain, which I wore with a three-piece suit in the 1960s and 70s when such were fashionable.
The thing about a classic three-piece suit is it is never unfashionable. It may not be "fashionable" at any given period, such as today, but it always connotes a certain elegance regardless of the era in which it is worn. As I mentioned in my post above, I occasionally wear a three-piece suit today, with my father's (and his father's) Omega pocket watch and fob in the vest, and have received comments from people who have said they wish they could pull off such a sartorial stance. Of course, one has to take into account today's level of dress, where it is not unusual to see someone wearing a suit or blazer with a tee-shirt.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Jul. 22 2021 13:42:35
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: Is this an authentic Conde? (in reply to estebanana)
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quote:
Richard Jerngan: Watches make great souvenirs, don't they?
Well-made watches and clocks are things of beauty. The mechanical clock is one of Western Civilization's greatest gifts to the world. The Chinese had water clocks that were powered by the flow or drip of water, but they clogged up quickly and were virtually useless. It was the mechanical clock, invented in the West, that made it possible to divide the 24-hour day precisely and enhanced man's activities from agriculture to early industrialization and a hundred other endeavors.
When Western mechanical clocks were introduced to the Chinese, the emperors considered them fascinating "toys" and they were kept within the court. They were not dispersed among the population, and they were not used in any utilitarian way as they were in the West. That, in part, explains how the West pulled ahead of the rest of the world beginning in the late 15th century.
By the way, a very interesting book about the solution to the problem of longitude is Dava Sobel's book about the quest in the 18th century to solve the problem, and the discovery and development of the marine chronometer by John Harrison. The book is entitled "Longitude." It is a fascinating story, and Harrison's invention, the marine chronometer that won the prize, is today housed in the Royal Observatory at Greenwich. I had the good fortune to visit the Royal Observatory many years ago on a visit to London, and it was a thrill to see the original marine chronometer that made measurement of longitude possible.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Jul. 22 2021 14:05:57
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Ricardo
Posts: 14797
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: Is this an authentic Conde? (in reply to RobF)
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quote:
Maybe instead of spending the time on a pictorial or listing hints, let’s just look at the tuners on the OP’s guitar. I would say that in quality they probably sit somewhere between that of the Gotoh 35G620s and the 35G3600s. That points to the 35G1800 series. I would prefer the 35G1800s to them, except they don’t look very Spanish aesthetically speaking, although that’s what I think was put on Paco’s guitar. They are serviceable tuners, but not great. There can be slop in the gearing and also problems with how well the buttons seat in the shafts. I still have a few sets of the 1800s left that I will find use for, but I probably won’t buy any more.
Looking at the OP’s first photo of the tuners you can see the plates are covered with a cheap baubly overly shiny gold coloured metallic plating. The plates themselves are stamped and the edges haven’t been cleaned up. The screws are not counter-sunk and sit on top of the plates. The tabs that hold the tuner shafts are bent metal which is then pushed through the plates, which are likely of base metal and not brass. Base metal degrades, and when it does those tabs will let go. Looking at the side picture, which I had yet to see before declaring the tuners as being cheap, one can see the design on the plates has either been stamped into them, although if they are base metal it is more than likely they are just cast (poured). I’m not a machinist so I shouldn’t stick my neck out too far about processes. Better tuners are engraved, either by machine or hand, and the base material of the plates will at least be of brass (although you won’t necessarily be able to tell that from a picture). A cast base metal plate can often have a “lumpy” or undefined appearance to the “engravings”. The fancy-pants hand engraved Fusteros pictured in that Orfeo article are little works of art, right up there with what can be found on Rodgers machines.
Thanks, that is what I was looking for. I’ll keep an eye out for those details.
_____________________________
CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
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Date Jul. 22 2021 16:17:56
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RobF
Posts: 1611
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
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RE: Is this an authentic Conde? (in reply to Echi)
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quote:
Btw, does it really matter what specific tuners used to be used in the shop Felipe V? Or in recent Ramirez, Contreras or whatever?
Of course it matters. You seem to be stuck on this point that it doesn’t, but of course it does.
Be it good Gotoh tuners on one guitar or the cheapest of them on others, if this is an example of the quality control practiced by the Conde firms in the first decade of this century, then no wonder their reputation took the giant dump that it did. It appears to be well earned.
Same with originality. It matters. Just not to you.
I’m willing to take it on the chin in the service of clarity and accurate information. If I say something that is subsequently proven wrong then I’ll realign based on the new information. If, after everything that has been said and done in a discussion like this, people just retreat into their respective corners and obstinately hold to their original positions, we’re wasting our time. Maybe the non-makers on here can indulge themselves in a pile of fanboy claptrap and innuendo, but the makers should hold themselves to higher standards. At least, that’s my opinion, man. Otherwise, what’s the point?
I guess this thread will continue to upset me more than it should. In truth, I don’t give a flying f**k about the OP’s or Jonnycake’s guitars, or about glowing descriptions that mean absolutely nothing, or about the crap that the Conde family has brought down upon themselves. I do care about accuracy, but fighting for it on here is just not worth the aggravation, it seems.
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Date Jul. 23 2021 13:41:28
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Echi
Posts: 1131
Joined: Jan. 11 2013
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RE: Is this an authentic Conde? (in reply to BarkellWH)
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quote:
I don’t know how feeling originality or quality has no bearing on value constitutes a wider view
Originality is not necessarily a synonym of quality. Everything has to be taken with a grain of salt.
The cheap Fustero of this 3D are original but they are not quality tuners.
Let me make a distinction:
1. some Madrid makers made a point in using top of the range tuners, and namely handgraved Fustero in all their guitars.
Some makers (Fleta or Arcangel) even used a specific model of Fustero tuners.
Arcangel was even famous to have inspired a certain Fustero design, with mother of Pearl buttons and silver plate with waves engraving.
Fustero is a Spanish brand and made a very reasonable price to the local makers (100 to 150 actual euro).
Well, in the cases above I see an evident value in keeping the original tuners.
The more valuable the guitar, the more important is the originality.
Even in this case, if the original tuners have to be replaced (as tuners mainly have to be effectively functional) I see no problems in replacing with Fustero or even with tuners of a superior category like Rodgers, Alessi and Scheller.
2. In the case of the 80 Condes, they just happened to use crappy tuners for their 1st class cypress models, basically for mere commercial reasons. Faustino for many years used much better Fustero on his top model and crappy Fustero just for the Pozuelo line.
These tuners instead are industrially made in Valencia, printed from a metal sheet, with plastic buttons and often with backlash problems: the fact they are made by Fustero is just a coincidence.
In this specific case I have no regrets in upgrading them with high grade Fustero without fear to infringe the integrity of the maker’s design because the latter is clearly driven by mere economical profit purposes.
The choice of better Fustero is coherent with the brand and better tuners offer better functionality.
If then I would decide to replace the crappy Fustero with hand made sterling silver Alessi under handgraved Fustero design, it’s because in my reckoning the value added by the improvement is far superior to the value of preserving the integrity.
Market definitely follows the same principle when it comes to consider instruments like those we are speaking about. If we were speaking of Hauser or valuable historical guitars it would be a different matter.
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Date Jul. 23 2021 16:26:26
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