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RE: Can a white man play the blues?
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Richard Jernigan
Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
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 RE: Can a white man play the blues? (in reply to kitarist)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kitarist
The one thing that remains for me as a new stable fact, not speculation, is that in 1835-1838 there was a gypsy song containing the phrase "Flamenca de Roma(*)'; the word 'flamenca' in that clearly referring to a gypsy/Roma woman and not to a Flemish person. I think that by itself is quite amazing. How it came about is another matter, as we see still open to hypothesizing.
(*) It occured to me that the fact that a gypsy song says 'flamenca de Roma' rather than just 'flamenca' - i.e. that the gypsy cantaor/author felt the need to specify which type of flamenco person - may be an indication that the time frame 1835-38 is very close to when this meaning first emerged (hence the need to clarify which one of the two uses is employed).
It seems that in flamencology, things are often not what they seem. Speaking of Borrow's "Zincali¨
quote:
Jose Manuel Gamboa
Sin embargo, con la repleta galería poética calé que ofreció en sus páginas no hizo mas que confundir, según han demostrado investigadores de eminente prestigio, que niegan la existencia de tal poesía gitana escrita o dicha en caló.
Gamboa subsequently quotes the German Professor Schuchardt "Die cantes flamenco" 1881
Schuchardt points out that it has become fashionable in certain non-gypsy circles, including the señoritos, to associate with gitanos and to adopt elements of gitano clothing, speech and mannerisms. He calls these non-gypsy people "la aficion."
Schuchardt concludes
quote:
Creo haber demostrado que los cantes flamencos no pueden considerarse de ningún modo como el declive de una antigua poesía gitana, sino que son esencialmente una poesía andaluza que ha sufrido en su lenguaje, por de pronto, un cierto agitanamiento. De antemano podemos señalar que al buscar en los cantes otros elementos gitanos, solo han aparecidos bien por casualidad, bien porque han sido introducidos en ellos por la afición, lo que quiere decir no son de ningún modo elementos esenciales y originarios.
Schuchardt says the cantes flamencos of the latter 19th century are not original Gypsy poetry translated from caló, rather they are andaluz poetry that has been to some extent "Gypsyfied" either by accident or by the payo aficionados.
The www.translate.google.com English versions of the Spanish quotes are comprehensible, except for translating "agitanamiento [gypsification]" as "agitation."
Schuchardt's conclusion accords with Borrow's report that fifty years earlier very few gitanos could carry on much of a conversation in caló, though most could throw in enough words to become unintelligible to a non-Gypsy. Or sometimes people thought Gypsies were speaking caló when in fact they were employing the thieves' jargon germania--a different language.
Borrow could tell because he had learned caló well enough to translate the King James Gospel of Luke into caló.
RNJ
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Date Apr. 29 2021 23:10:32
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Beni2
Posts: 139
Joined: Apr. 23 2018
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RE: Can a white man play the blues? (in reply to Richard Jernigan)
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quote:
It seems that in flamencology, things are often not what they seem. Speaking of Borrow's "Zincali¨
People don't even know what flamencology is. It gets used on the forums to describe any flamenco study and act as an abstract place holder for singular identity (i.e. aficionado, scholar, neophyte) against a practitioner identity as if flamenco never go to school or scholars never learn from masters.
Gamboa, Hurtado Torres, and Steingress, as well as Castro Buendia and Nunez are not the same as Climent, Blas Infante, or Molina and Mairena are not the same as Demofilo and Schuchardt are not the same as Borrow and Ford.
I recommended Gamboa, Hurtado Torres, and Steingress. Steingress covers everything in your post in more detail and with a more cohesive narrative than Gamboa.
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Date Apr. 30 2021 0:30:35
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estebanana
Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
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RE: Can a white man play the blues? (in reply to Richard Jernigan)
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quote:
chuchardt "Die cantes flamenco" 1881
Schuchardt points out that it has become fashionable in certain non-gypsy circles, including the señoritos, to associate with gitanos and to adopt elements of gitano clothing, speech and mannerisms. He calls these non-gypsy people "la aficion."
That’s probably the extension of the fascination with majo - maja culture, senoritos and gentry dressed like Frida Kahlo during Goya’s era fifty 60 years earlier. The lower aristocratic gentry had a funny relationship with the street, they had a genre of painting they collected that were of stage coach robbers and highway men killers ambushing coaches in the woods. Goya was commissioned to paint a few of them. And the fascination with folkloric dressing in the 19th century is curious because it was associated with Spanish nationalism during the Napoleon’s wars.
And this is the time that some Gitano people may have fought up north in the low country.
The other day I studied over the influence of music coming in from the north, Josquin was heavily studied at the beginning of the 16th century. During that time the kings of Spain along with high ranking dukes and other court administrators took their families to Flanders for extended periods of time, a year or two and then to Italy, Rome for a year to conduct government business. The court music directors and musicians also went and studied in Flanders. Later in the 17th century court representatives were sent instead of the king himself. Velasquez the kings painter was sent to Rome for a year or two, but stayed longer to a collect art for Spain and enjoy Rome. Eventually the king, Phil, got after him and wrote to say get your butt back to Madrid.
Velasquez’ secretary and studio assistant was black or moorish, there were a lot of traders and international commerce done by non Germanic looking peoples. These flamencos of Rome existed far back into the Middle Ages due to trading.
I’m suspicious of any modern take on these concepts being invented in the 19th century. All these themes have roots that extend back if you find the separate history disciplines that trace them.
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Date Apr. 30 2021 3:03:49
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estebanana
Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
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RE: Can a white man play the blues? (in reply to Ricardo)
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quote:
ote:
I know you guys are being polite, but you know exactly what I mean about the difference.
Of course I know the difference. There are also good and bad accompaniment. In this case you are making an assumption based on absence of evidence. I personally only know what I have seen, and as I said “solista” covers it imo. And about certain solistas that bring dancers and singers on tour, sorry that is not the same as being an accompanist. Honestly the only solistas I have seen presenting their show correctly was moraito w Merce and nuñez with Linares ... at least here in USA. As a contrast Sanlucar also brought Linares, total opposite way that was presented. Antonio Rey was with the Farrucos a long time ago, but he was not yet a solista, though he had an album
Ok, fair enough, and of course I know that you know that I know you know how to distinguish.
The question or the challenge was posed not by me, but by someone else, so the burden of evidence isn’t on me, I merely asked the question be followed up. The person who said asking if a white guy can play blues is like asking us Grisha plays flamenco. That’s a statement that deserves scrutiny because it’s not a simple comparison. But there we worked through it, and you pretty much split the baby by application of Solomonic wisdom saying that flamenco guitar SHOULD in part be judged by value of accompanying knowledge and playing, but some soloists qualify by other criteria within some flamenco framework.
And, yes I’ve seen more of those espectaculo block buster shows than I care to admit, and didn’t deeply enjoy them or feel flamenco edified by them. Some are presented better than others. I suppose I’m lucky for spending a lot of time in the Bay Area where small venue flamenco with cante taken seriously. Many singers from Spain have been brought by Yaelisa, Tania, and other dancers, plus the times David Serva came with Pepe Torres and people from his circles, and Nina Menendez bringing many singers for concert series that were exclusively cante without baile. I saw Agujetas twice in Berkeley for example. The list of small company flamenco that’s passed through SF is legendary, including the show in SF in the 80’s that had Farruco and Fernanda for six weeks at a stretch.
For me the purpose of a big show coming to town is so you can go to the dinner after the show and not get drunk so you can go with the artists to someone’s house after the dinner and get them comfy enough to maybe begin to sing to ten people after midnight or 2 am. The big show pays them well enough to go on tour, but it can also if planned correctly mean that a core of aficionados can get a few nights of juergafucation and plan an actual paid juerga ( I’ve paid 80 bucks myself on occasions to get Pepe Torres to dance for 20 people in room, I’d pay a hundred easy and more) right. So when these rare things are going to happen and you plan and work with concert promoters and dancers to set aside down time for artists to visit and do a well paid private juerga, you don’t need any solo guitar... except that time Pepe Torres sat in my friend’s kitchen with a few guys and played toque from everyone in his family, it the night......
For me that’s why I’m interested in distinguishing between the various kinds of careers and differences. I want the small room flamenco to stay alive because people NEED to know the difference and learn to pay for those close encounters or be extremely thankful when they happen spontaneously.
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https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
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Date Apr. 30 2021 9:58:36
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estebanana
Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
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RE: Can a white man play the blues? (in reply to estebanana)
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The question in the Americas has always been answered, can people from different racial backgrounds play blues or other music that’s not originally white. The answer is yes, and a few gifted artists excel at it. The part that’s pushed into the background that makes it touchy is that some players who are white get an advantage, or had a marketing concertizing advantage because they could bring the music to white audiences that the black players didn’t have clear access to. And I’m not being PC, it’s just a piece of it that gets swept out of sight. And for all the brilliant players like SRV or others who there were unrecognized black players who didn’t get what they deserved.
That’s why it’s a weird way to make a comparison or a point, because it leaves out the original and centers the question on whiteness. People today gloss it over and think Oh man what a drag that guy is saying this uncomfortable stuff. We need to think more about it in relation to how we make casual references.
I watched an interview with Ron Carter the bassist in which he says he was playing in a studio orchestra, because he trained as classical bassist in the early fifties. Leopold Stokowski was the conductor. After a session Stokowski says to Carter, young man I’d really love to have you in my orchestra in Houston or wherever it was, but the board of directors would be against it, and I have no power over it.
It changed Carter’s life because the reality set in that he’d have to play jazz in bars to support his family and get work. Luckily not long after the talk with Stokowski he got a job playing regularly with a band in the NYC scene. That lead to Miles Davis coming to hear him, and offered him a job on the spot to tour Europe. And the rest is history.
As it happens, Ron Carter is extremely talented and musical, he survived the 1950’s and was able to be a pro, but he doesn’t play in orchestras. Carter probably could have become a classical bassist with a solo career, but the modern classical bassist who broke into solo bass playing in the symphony world was Gary Carr, a white Canadian. It could have been Ron Carter in a different time, but since he was black he had a narrower path of opportunity. And we all love Miles’ records, it was by this bassists life in which a door closed because of racism that we got to hear him become the anchor of Davis’ band. And he plays great solos, but he made that band have a center.
We tend to center our stuff on white comparison, can a white guy do this or that, to me not so impressive a comparison line. Ron Carter is the kind of guy to compare achievements to.
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Date May 1 2021 0:17:26
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ernandez R
Posts: 737
Joined: Mar. 25 2019
From: Alaska USA
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RE: Can a white man play the blues? (in reply to estebanana)
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I’ve noticed here in the states I new form of revisionism that modifies the histories by removing the colored mans place on it.
Seen it about Spain and the place the Moors have in their history recently
Wish I had a grasp of this and facts at hand to explain this better...
Anyway, this has been on my mind since this has come up a couple times in different threads.
Everyone has, or rather feels, a need to use history to explain their place in it, for good or bad, for power or gain, it’s up to us to see this in others and ourselves and try our best to be true.
Interesting discussion all around, and if it makes one think, just I little bit beyond what we had before, then it has proven its value.
HR
_____________________________
I prefer my flamenco guitar spicy,
doesn't have to be fast,
should have some meat on the bones,
can be raw or well done,
as long as it doesn't sound like it's turning green on an elevator floor.
www.instagram.com/threeriversguitars
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Date May 1 2021 4:51:01
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