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Is there hope for flamenco outside of Andalusia...?
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ViejoAmargo
Posts: 39
Joined: Jun. 29 2016
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 Is there hope for flamenco outside o...
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I just read an article by Estela Zatania that left me a bit depressed, because it's so true... It's about how the essence of flamenco is so misunderstood outside of Spain, the clichés and all that. Not in this forum of course, most regular posters here know their flamenco. But I can't help wondering if is there any hope in trying to "educate" people outside of Spain about flamenco, dispelling the idea that it's all about "stomping", that Paco de Lucia represents "typical" flamenco guitar, that it's all about romance and eroticism...
Heck, even within Spain most people outside of Andalusia don't really have a clue about flamenco either... It's not an easy genre to master, and it's too intense to be "popular"... Yet, what disturbs me is that even people who consider themselves "cultured" or "educate", people who would pay money to watch a flamenco performance outside of Spain, or who would travel to Spain because they are interested in different world cultures, seldom get it... Just looking at the kind of "flamenco" shows favored by Spanish and international "cultural elites" (e.g., Israel Galvan, Rocio Molina, etc.) says a lot about the disconnect between what most people "think" flamenco is, and it's traditional roots.
Is there a point trying to "educate" people who think they know flamenco, but don't? Or should we resign ourselves to the simple fact that flamenco is just understood by a very small minority (even within Spain), and the rest doesn't really care about dispelling the stereotypes...? My feel is that many artists outside Spain love to claim that what they do is "flamenco" just because that gives them an air of cultured sophistication... but they don't really care... and they know that where they perform no one can tell anyway, so it's easy to get away with it...
Anyway, just venting, really...
Here's Estela's article btw:
https://www.expoflamenco.com/en/estela-flamenca/flamenco-parental-supervision-advised
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Date Mar. 15 2021 22:02:32
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Morante
Posts: 2178
Joined: Nov. 21 2010
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RE: Is there hope for flamenco outsi... (in reply to ViejoAmargo)
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Outside of Andalucía, the money is in the baile. Sara Baras is probably the most popular. But while everybody knows her name, nobody knows who are her singers, her guitarrists, her dancers. But, at least, Sara tries to employ artists gaditanos, so her musical director is Keko Baldomero, an outstanding gaditano guitarrista and her principal dancer is another gaditano, Dani Saltares. Without the international appeal of the dance, these artists would live unknown in relative poverty.
In Andalucía, flamenco is cante. But I am friends with her singers and know that they can hardly make a living here.
Meanwhile, radio and tele constantly offer flamencito as flamenco and the juventud have more interest in the redes sociales than anything else. The future is bleak. in the short term, the Barrio de Santiago is la hostia.
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Date Mar. 15 2021 23:59:48
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RobF
Posts: 1611
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
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RE: Is there hope for flamenco outsi... (in reply to ViejoAmargo)
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quote:
But I can't help wondering if is there any hope in trying to "educate" people outside of Spain about flamenco, dispelling the idea that it's all about "stomping", that Paco de Lucia represents "typical" flamenco guitar, that it's all about romance and eroticism...
Heck, even within Spain most people outside of Andalusia don't really have a clue about flamenco either... It's not an easy genre to master, and it's too intense to be "popular"... Yet, what disturbs me is that even people who consider themselves "cultured" or "educate", people who would pay money to watch a flamenco performance outside of Spain, or who would travel to Spain because they are interested in different world cultures, seldom get it...
...Is there a point trying to "educate" people who think they know flamenco, but don't? ...
My concern is, and I hope I’m not tainting this due to having had a truly horrid day, but my concern is if one attempts to “educate” people from what appears to me, and I may be misinterpreting your intentions here and I hope I am, actually, but if the “education” is flowing from an elitist position, then flamenco will truly die, as this is fundamentally missing the essence. In my opinion.
But I’ve had a truly horrible life-altering day and I probably shouldn’t say anything. Unfortunately, I lack the common sense to STFU. I do know that if the Foro begins to adopt such a tone, and it sometimes does happen, fortunately not often, and seldom for long, but if it does, my stay here would end. Not that it matters.
I am sad to hear what Morante just said, and unfortunately I am hearing similar from the small number of flamenco players I know in Spain. Times have gotten tough, really tough. Maybe encourage people into the fold, instead of discounting them and their emotions? Flamenco is more than capable of educating people on its own, and can take it from there.
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Date Mar. 16 2021 4:24:29
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ernandez R
Posts: 737
Joined: Mar. 25 2019
From: Alaska USA
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RE: Is there hope for flamenco outsi... (in reply to ViejoAmargo)
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Well...a lot to unpack here. Some one always looses when a part of a culture is comidfied. Then there is a so called cultural evolution that happens in fits and jurks; some of us throw fits and others get jerked around.
No culture is static but many get murdered along the way for money.
I'm really new to the label but feel I've felt the donde my whole life. The flamenco was never easy, the way of the gatano is to be dispossessed and the song form is our way to express it.
There will always be a Flamenco. The label has changed over the ages and the notes and intervals. My southern brothers sang it in the blues and soul, any music of a lament that had in it a twin of celebration for life, for the heartbeat, that first cry of a new born or the last exelation of the aged cantor.
Like I mentioned on the other thread about tearing into a loaf of bread, if you've never been hungry how can you taste life the way we have, sure we saver the salt of tears more then most but that is our lot.
When I first read the OP and the article he linked I spent some time thinking about what we loose. A few hours later and a few comments more and I'm not so sure I can find the words. Do I need to?
I picked up my guitar just now and worked up a new falsetta, a lament, slow sort of sigurias, that E and A fridgen thing I play with, I'll most likely forget it by morning, like my life and those that come and go through the ages... Olé
HR
_____________________________
I prefer my flamenco guitar spicy,
doesn't have to be fast,
should have some meat on the bones,
can be raw or well done,
as long as it doesn't sound like it's turning green on an elevator floor.
www.instagram.com/threeriversguitars
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Date Mar. 16 2021 5:58:45
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ernandez R
Posts: 737
Joined: Mar. 25 2019
From: Alaska USA
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RE: Is there hope for flamenco outsi... (in reply to RobF)
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Rob,
Times are indeed tough for many, not sure I see the light most need to get ahead.
Almost a year ago I was under a moose litteraly fighting for my life dodging hooves.
Three years ago a lost the engine on a small plane is was flying, had an easy road to land on but won the crossing power line lottery. I climbed out of the plane and made it about twenty steps getting away from the smell of AV gas, I laid down on the edge of the highway and looking up at the sky, my face bloody, wondering if I was going to stroke out right there on the side of the road...
Fight, fight like it matters, fight like hell, cause that's all we have, and when you are done fighting cry, cry like hell, cry like it's all you have, cause it's all we have. When the time comes get up and dust off, look up into the sun or stars and be greatful of the view, pick up your guitar and play like no one is listing and call out your lament, cringe up your face in agony and yell, cause it's times like these when it's all we have.
HR
_____________________________
I prefer my flamenco guitar spicy,
doesn't have to be fast,
should have some meat on the bones,
can be raw or well done,
as long as it doesn't sound like it's turning green on an elevator floor.
www.instagram.com/threeriversguitars
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Date Mar. 16 2021 6:14:12
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RobF
Posts: 1611
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
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RE: Is there hope for flamenco outsi... (in reply to ernandez R)
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Thanks HR. You have the heart and the words of a poet and your words have great value. It makes a difference.
For me, I have to regain my health that left me during Christmas, and once that’s been accomplished I will lose pretty well everything I’ve spent a lifetime building; my home and my shop. But when the dust settles, I will still have my tools, my wood, and a fistful of dollars, so I will rebuild. Somewhere, just not here.
I have no idea where I will end up. I’ve talked with my Andalusian friends and they have places for me to live, so if Andalusia accepts me I might end up there. I don’t know. First, I’ll have to re-establish some kind of life here, as well, as a complete move may not be possible or allowed and at some point or points I’ll have to come back. I have to look into this. Right now I just have to figure out how to get away and rebuild elsewhere. Times are tough, indeed.
Your words counted. They were a bit of a lifeline and I believe you.
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Date Mar. 16 2021 6:55:08
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Piwin
Posts: 3559
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
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RE: Is there hope for flamenco outsi... (in reply to ViejoAmargo)
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Compare flamenco to most other regional genres and I think you'll see that it's doing very well in comparison. Many of them hardly have any kind of commercialisation at all. They survive just fine as communal music, as will flamenco even if the market completely crumbles. But flamenco managed to get some commercial appeal, and people became professionals making a living off of it. So now the gauge of flamenco's living or dying is its commercial survival. Pull the rug of exoticism from under it, and its commercial survival ends. Careful what you wish for. It's the same thing with this over-tourism business. People are right to notice there's an issue, but go too far in the other direction and you might end up sawing off the branch you're standing on.
Also, I don't think it's wise to put everything in the same bag. To think Galvan's success is based on the exploitation of stereotypes of "romance and eroticism" is IMHO to misunderstand what it is he does and why it has the appeal it has. It's just not in the same category as the long-haired open-shirt playing-Malaguena rock stars or whatever. Not doing the same thing at all. Similarly, people can have strong opinions about, say, Nino de Elche or Rosalia or people like that, but IMO it would be a big mischaracterisation to think their success outside of flamenco circles has anything to do with these stereotypes.
Also, it's really not important but since it's in the article: "guiri" is not derogatory. I'll die on this hill.  It can be, but so can almost every word. 99% of the time it's either neutral (just slang) or affectionate.
@RobF Not gonna pry, but I hope you're OK man. Hang in there!
edit: ah, just saw your reply. Go to Andalucia!!! If you do come and I'm still in Spain, we'll have to get a few beers and see if we can enjoy an evening up in the Alhambra without getting kicked out by the security guard. 
_____________________________
"Anything you do can be fixed. What you cannot fix is the perfection of a blank page. What you cannot fix is that pristine, unsullied whiteness of a screen or a page with nothing on it—because there’s nothing there to fix."
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Date Mar. 16 2021 7:04:04
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ViejoAmargo
Posts: 39
Joined: Jun. 29 2016
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RE: Is there hope for flamenco outsi... (in reply to RobF)
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quote:
My concern is, and I hope I’m not tainting this due to having had a truly horrid day, but my concern is if one attempts to “educate” people from what appears to me, and I may be misinterpreting your intentions here and I hope I am, actually, but if the “education” is flowing from an elitist position, then flamenco will truly die, as this is fundamentally missing the essence. In my opinion.
But I’ve had a truly horrible life-altering day and I probably shouldn’t say anything. Unfortunately, I lack the common sense to STFU. I do know that if the Foro begins to adopt such a tone, and it sometimes does happen, fortunately not often, and seldom for long, but if it does, my stay here would end. Not that it matters.
No worries Rob... Your opinion and concern is always welcome... I meant "educating" in the sense of making people understand flamenco culture... Letting people understand that flamenco is not just some "musical genre" meant to entertain with cheesy pseudo-erotic/romantic interactions between two "fiery" dancers, wildly stomping their feet. That there is a culture and history behind it. That cante is the at core of flamenco. Let people understand that very specific and complex palos are the essence of flamenco, and it's not just some bohemian improvisation. These sort of things.
My concern is that guys who show up everywhere with their guitar "looking the part" (you know, the manly Spanish heartthrob) and play something with rhythm, joined by a dancer stomping their feet and wildly grabbing her skirt up and down, will tell everyone that this is "flamenco". Then flamenco's complexity becomes cheapened. It's a slap in the face to those artists who took (and take) the time to be serious about flamenco, learning all they can about it (including its history, it's cultural aspects), who respect it.
I guess that's what I'm getting at: I'd like people to respect flamenco by realizing is not just some cheap, shallow musical genre...
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Date Mar. 16 2021 17:34:23
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ViejoAmargo
Posts: 39
Joined: Jun. 29 2016
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RE: Is there hope for flamenco outsi... (in reply to Piwin)
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quote:
I don't think it's wise to put everything in the same bag. To think Galvan's success is based on the exploitation of stereotypes of "romance and eroticism" is IMHO to misunderstand what it is he does and why it has the appeal it has
Piwin, absolutely, yes... I didn't meant to imply that Israel Galvan and the like are in the same boat as the "cheesy" flamenco performers... My point was that there are several things out there that, in my opinion, betray the "true spirit of flamenco", either because it's too cheesy/cheap, its because it's too intellectual/artsy...
But of course, at the end of the day, we end up in the eternal question "What is 'real' flamenco? What isn't?". And it ends up being a matter of opinion, impossible to resolve.
quote:
Pull the rug of exoticism from under it, and its commercial survival ends. Careful what you wish for.
That is a good point, too.
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Date Mar. 16 2021 17:51:34
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RobF
Posts: 1611
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
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RE: Is there hope for flamenco outsi... (in reply to Morante)
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Thanks everyone for the words of support and encouragement and it really does help. It counts for a lot, trust me. I figure it’ll take time to work through what’s going on, in part because I’m hamstrung until the vaccines roll out and I get my hit and some safer mobility. But I’ll get through this.
I’ll keep updating as things turn more positive, probably as the summer rolls on. I don’t want to burden my friends here on the Foro with too much negative stuff and I’m sifting through the advice I’ve been getting here on the home front. I have a lot of sisters, so there’s no shortage of it, lol. I need a couple days/weeks to decompress, then I’ll seek professional advice on my options.
On the Flamenco front, it’s all good. Some of my friends in Spain are in a very bad way, but we’re all helping each other, in any way we can, as we have done since this crisis began. It’s been flowing both ways and we’ll get through this.
I’ve been listening to Morante’s suggestion of Carmen de la Jara, “Canta Toreros Gaditano en la génesis del Flamenco”. That’s all I need right now, it’s beautiful.
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Date Mar. 16 2021 18:54:27
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Richard Jernigan
Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
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RE: Is there hope for flamenco outsi... (in reply to RobF)
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RobF I have no idea what you are going through.
Looking back, there were times when my back was to the wall, financially, emotionally...I won't go into detail, but I thought there was no way out in this life.
I escaped from one major entrapment not by pulling up my socks and doing something about it, but by screwing up spectacularly. Fate smiled upon me by allowing me to do something really stupid, which ejected me from the frying pan into the fire.
But then I had the freedom to react. Things started looking up.
Years later I am retired, happy, haven't owed anybody a dollar for more than twenty years. As long as we are alive, chances are some opportunity will eventually come up. All we have to do is to accept it, and to follow where it leads.
Hold on, my friend. Your luck will turn.
RNJ
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Date Mar. 16 2021 19:38:45
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Richard Jernigan
Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
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RE: Is there hope for flamenco outsi... (in reply to Richard Jernigan)
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As for an authentic appreciation of flamenco, like all the other American aficionados I know, I came to flamenco via the guitar. For me it was the solo works of Sabicas and Mario Escudero. I saw them in New York City in the early 1960s. Sabicas showed up for after hours juergas at Zambra, where he accompanied singers and danceers as well as playing an occasional solo.
If there was a cante track on an LP, I skipped it.
On my first trip to Spain I spent a few evenings listening to Rafael Romero "El Gallina" accompanied by Perico El del Lunar. I gradually became aware of the solo guitar's roots in cante, and started to listen a little.
Back in Austin I fell in with some of Eddie Freeman's students, who learned accurate copies of the virtuoso soloists' stuff, from Ramon Montoya to Sabicas.
I like and admire many of the later generation of guitar soloists, but nowadays if I listen to recorded flamenco, it's almost always cante. Without a first "shallow" involvement via the guitar, I don't think I would have come to be interested in "more authentic" flamenco.
With the possible exception of a couple of evenings at Jose Luis Postigo's place in Sevilla, every performance I have been to in Spain during the last 20 years has been what I would call a "tourist performance," focussed on loud and fast dancing, plenty of sweating and stomping.
This includes Casa Patas in Madrid and the Tablao Cordobés in Barcelona, both touted as "authentic." At Casa Patas the crowd was mainly Spanish, in Barcelona they were mostly European foreigners.
At Postigo's place we at least got equal time for cante, baile and solo toque.
Larisa says she likes cante. Next time we are in Spain, maybe I'll try to get into a peña or two.
RNJ
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Date Mar. 16 2021 21:02:35
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Fluknu
Posts: 151
Joined: Jan. 11 2021
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RE: Is there hope for flamenco outsi... (in reply to ViejoAmargo)
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I think there are two dimensions here, and they are beeing mixed.
The first dimension I see, is that any body of well established art has in time it's tacky/popular proponent. These artists are sometimes a bit shallow but reach out to a vast public. They give a kind of edulcorated version of the heart of the said art.
Example: Herman Hesse in litterature with "siddharta", a book about Buddha. It's really not the best book of Hesse, nor about Buddhism, but it drew millions of people to investigate that culture/philopsophy.
We can see that in jazz also. Who can go straight to Miles's Bitches brew?
If people get interested into Flamenco because of the Gipsy king, or into martial art because of Steven Segall, well that's cool.
In that dimension there's that thing that the heart of any great art is for most people
difficult to grasp at first. If they persevere, they might discover a richness, a depth and a way of life they never expected.
The second dimension is time and the transformation of culture. This has always happened, due to invasion of one nation on the other. But what is happening now is a major globalisation and a gigantic wave of cultural extinction, replaced by one global world culture. With good sides and bad sides.
I'm always amazed when I travel to another city in Europe how the same shop are everywhere (Zara, Fnac, and so on). every country plays the same pop music, same sounding everywhere, with minor differences.
Probably this pandemic crisis will accelerate this process and give a hard blow to the traditional cultures and enhance that emergent global culture.
But I hope it will not happen. Human nature is interestingly adaptative. I hope that once we'll be past this sideration/freeze reaction, we'll find ways to represent again the richness of human experience, be it through traditional forms or new ones.
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Date Mar. 17 2021 7:17:57
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