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Which pieces have you learned from tabs/notation ?
This has been discussed before, and I wholeheartedly agree, that learning by ear off the record instead of reading results in a much deeper understanding of the music and the instrument.
I grew up when tab was emerging, didn't have a great ear, and learned much of my material from tab/notation, which clearly stunted my growth and musicianship. The habit of learning this way is so much more developed, habituated, and engrained in me, that I don't have the willpower, patience, and time to break it.
Many years ago, my guitar teacher taught me my first bulerias falsetas - most from El Tempul, a few from Jerenzana. He taught me the 'flamenco' way - and learning that way was crazy difficult for me - took me many lessons to learn one falseta.
The first good flamenco transcription I found, and I think one of the best before the Encuentro series, was the Michael Haas transcription of Cepa Andaluza (I think he did a few others, including the Guajiras). I've returned to learning the Cepa piece and sheet music as I start to play flamenco again. Like most falsetas I learn from tab/notation, I was (a long time ago) able to put my fingers on all of them, play bits and pieces in time - and eventually forgot them, but they're coming back as I revisit. Never had more than 2 or 3 in compas at any given time...which led me to learn Guns N' Roses songs instead lol
As I look again at the Michael Haas transcription, I find it excellently done - great detail, golpes in the right place, half-compases properly notated, accurate voicings. There must be a few mistakes here and there - but none that I would be able to find.
I'm curious how many of you out there have learned Cepa Andaluza with the Michael Haas tab (or other) and what you thought of it, and in general, what other pieces you learned primarily by reading music tab/notation.
I'm guessing most people on the Foro - except for the professionals, semi professionals, and Spaniards learn with notation and tabs, or as my guitar teacher put it, the "Western" way - but curious to hear from others.
Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Which pieces have you learned fr... (in reply to joevidetto)
quote:
Never had more than 2 or 3 in compas at any given time...which led me to learn Guns N' Roses songs instead lol
Well, the approach to learning is the issue. A tab is just a tool, so nothing wrong with them. The ear thing is all about guitar players that have rhythm but refuse to READ rhythms correctly. If you learn how to read in rhythm and pay attention close to the notation, then you realize you can actually learn A LOT from scores that somebody else made that you don’t have to take the time to do. The typical Rock guitar student will grab tabs and pay zero attention to the notated rhythms...and indeed I have seen many tabs made where there actually is NO rhythm written. That is a huge problem and relegates rhythm into an elusive category where “you just gotta FEEL it man, use your ear...”. I was guilty of this myself as a kid, despite having studied a little bit of marching drums.
I remember working a phrase by Nuno Bettencourt that was driving me nuts because of the off beat pick up notes. Very funky...but I finally got it by ELIMINATING notes and starting on the notes that had the beat. After I got the feel I went back and added the pick up notes to the phrase...it made me realize how funny it is that I had forgotten my RUDIMENTS. Suddenly written guitar music took on a new dimension for me. Crossing into Flamenco universe I saw the same funny things going on. Guitar players that understand rhythm just fine in other genres, encounter flamenco and suddenly this “compas issue” becomes a cerebral mountain to climb. It comes down to basic simply rudiments. Flamenco traditionalists say learning from score is inadequate and I totally get why...the people that make scores have a system for interpreting them and thus missing info is implied...For me encountering Faucher, I had to get used to his system but then I realized he had amazing accurate material. It was a mystery to me at first how he got it so correct, and later I learned he used video.
I made my own transcriptions early on and spent a lot of time feeling the phrases correctly...then I went to spain. Nuñez would play a phrase, slow but in time to his foot tap, and the mostly European group of students all suddenly “Had it” in ONE HEARING, and I am talking about the rhythm. It was eye opening for me because I felt like some of the guys in the class, I could play better than, but how could they learn FASTER than me? It was like the Amadeus movie where he was portrayed as a “genius” because he heard the song once and knew it. But I realized that when he played a phrase in compas, the rhythm info was being conveyed the same way we say sentences in language. You don’t have to think about the definition of each word to understand it...the words just add up to the MEANING of the phrase. So that info is conveyed or “taught” instantly. When I realized it I stopped writing out the falsetas on paper and just started LEARNING them. My playing and understanding, memory retention etc all improved immediately.
So when I did that Tomatito falseta in 8 minutes, it is not meant to “show off” it is how I think learning should be done. When a note is played, ANY note, from a tab or by ear, or video, whatever, that note contains RHYTHM information...and you need to NOT play that note without that specific info such that the NEXT note and the NEXT all add up correctly in your mind and heart as a rhythmic “sentence”. So I repeat that sentence until I feels secure, then add a few more notes to that base, and so on. Never play a group of notes haphazardly and say “oh I will just get the timing off the record later”, because your brain will assign timing to the phrases...and if there is any INCORRECT timing, you can’t remove it easily or replace it with the “correct” timing. Trust me, I have entire passages of music that sit “wrong” in my mind, and learning it correctly in rhythm simply sounds like DIFFERENT music altogether.
So use Tabs but use them correctly, they are great tools.
Posts: 503
Joined: Jun. 14 2014
From: Encinitas, CA USA
RE: Which pieces have you learned fr... (in reply to joevidetto)
I agree with Ricardo that tabs are a tool. I think of them as a starting point and a framework that is better than nothing but not by a lot. They most often have many mistakes and inaccuracies and do not do a good job of conveying anything other than raw notes. Where I learn a lot more from tabs is watching or listening to somebody who is good play it and then fixing the mistakes in the tab and learning the rhythm, fingering and nuances of the playing. This is very time consuming but worthwhile I think. I also think guitar tabs are a sort of crutch because you do not need to know what note you are playing, just a position on the fret board. I think it is better to use standard music notation so that you know what note you are playing. I grew up from a very young age playing clarinet and saxophone and I could read music, know what the notes were and how to finger them and knew every scale. This has been a point of frustration for me on guitar as I only know notes up to the fifth fret. I have learned quite a few pieces from tab but probably the one I play most is Sabicas Farruca Punta Y Tacon. It has become a daily piece that I gauge my progress by.
_____________________________
Ah well, there was a fantastic passion there, in my case anyway. I discovered flamenco very early on. It grips you in a way that you can't get away - Paco Pena
RE: Which pieces have you learned fr... (in reply to joevidetto)
quote:
I'm curious how many of you out there have learned Cepa Andaluza with the Michael Haas tab (or other) and what you thought of it, and in general, what other pieces you learned primarily by reading music tab/notation.
I don't think I've ever learned anything from a transcription alone. I did learn Cepa Andaluza and used a transcription and a tape player that could slow down the tapes. The sound quality was terrible, but it gave my slow ear a chance to catch the melodies and phrasing. The transcription wasn't Michael Haas, wasn't Faucher and was some years before the "official" book transcribed by Cañizares so wasn't that either. Don't know who it was though, maybe something I found on the net. I forgot the whole thing not long after....
quote:
I grew up when tab was emerging, didn't have a great ear, and learned much of my material from tab/notation, which clearly stunted my growth and musicianship. The habit of learning this way is so much more developed, habituated, and engrained in me, that I don't have the willpower, patience, and time to break it.
Me the same, but playing for dance classes meant I had a template for having to pick things up by ear and quickly, obviously mostly rhythmic things, but sometimes a teacher would sing a falseta they wanted me to play. Also going to some group classes and having some lessons in Spain where the expectation was to catch things really quickly pushed me to try to work on my ear.
I found the process of learning from tabs really slow and laborious, even while trying to hear each phrase from audio source, almost as if the visual (sheet) and audio channels were cancelling each other out in my brain. When I got software I could use to slow audio down at pitch without losing so much quality and loop small sections it was a game changer. I don't think it is really any more time consuming (for me now) to learn from audio than from tab, because although it takes a bit of time to find the notes they then seem to stick much quicker and for longer. I also use video where available for fingerboard positions and fingerings (and really helps with chords), and as I have a big stack of tabs I like to "compare notes" with whichever transcriber AFTER I have lifted a falseta from a recording - mostly we disagree about some details or other...
I first learned Jerezana the same way (Faucher tab) I learned Cepa Andaluza (above). Same thing, I forgot it soon after. Then a couple of years ago I re-learned Jerezana from audio without looking at the transcription and I can still play it. If I haven't played it for a couple of months it will be messy, but I can knock it back into shape fairly quickly.
Posts: 1871
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco
RE: Which pieces have you learned fr... (in reply to joevidetto)
I bought the Hass transcriptions more than 30 years ago but they didn't enable me to play the tunes. I simply didn't have enough chops or experience to make it happen. The material I was playing then was pretty easy compared to Paco.
Maybe 20 years ago I studied with Pepe Haro, who had moved near me from Madrid. He was a huge Paco fan and I learned Cepa from him. The key was practicing it all very slowly.
I also really like having the paper, be it tab or notation, to refer to, but if I don't have a recording or video, I don't bother.
I just got the Fuente book and am going over some of the tunes. I haven't looked at these tunes, except the fandango and Reflejo, for 20 years. It's funny that when playing some falsetas from Cepa, muscle memory is taking over and after playing a falseta several times, I find myself remembering exactly how I fingered it way back when. I have found a few differences and am trying to determine if it's worth it to change fingerings in specific instances. I'm also wondering how accurate the book really is, or if it even matters to change a fingering.
I can pick stuff up by watching other players fairly quickly, and being left handed when I look at a right handed player, it's like looking in a mirror-really easy to see what they are doing. Retention is my issue.
I'm also pretty decent at taking stuff off records now that we can slow them down, but I would rather have notation AND a tab. 30 years ago I took a Rondena by Sabicas off the record, tabbed it and didn't add the rhythms. Lazy, but I can see what my intention was, even if no one else can. I slowed down the LP to get it as right as I could. Ruined the record.
Posts: 1805
Joined: Nov. 8 2010
From: London (living in the Bay Area)
RE: Which pieces have you learned fr... (in reply to Mark2)
quote:
30 years ago I took a Rondena by Sabicas off the record, tabbed it and didn't add the rhythms. Lazy, but I can see what my intention was, even if no one else can. I slowed down the LP to get it as right as I could. Ruined the record.
You didn’t have a tape recorder? That’s what I used to use, even in the ’60s.
But of course, there was a nasty period when reel-to-reel (= US open reel) tape recorders had disappeared in favour of cassettes, but you couldn’t slow cassettes down; and the relevant software had not yet appeared.
Posts: 1871
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco
RE: Which pieces have you learned fr... (in reply to Paul Magnussen)
I had, and still have a teac 3440 but what I remember doing was using the record, and at some point I recorded the half speed playback on a cassette. By that time the record was pretty beat.
I also recorded some guitar lessons on cassette and have lessons I took from the 70's and 80's.
I listened to one a while back and heard the teacher trying to explain a concept to me, and I wasn't getting it. I thought wow, I was pretty thick.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Paul Magnussen
You didn’t have a tape recorder? That’s what I used to use, even in the ’60s.
But of course, there was a nasty period when reel-to-reel (= US open reel) tape recorders had disappeared in favour of cassettes, but you couldn’t slow cassettes down; and the relevant software had not yet appeared.
Posts: 1871
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco
RE: Which pieces have you learned fr... (in reply to joevidetto)
The funny thing is now that I've been playing only for my own enjoyment for the last few years, I find I've made a leap of sorts in visualizing some things on the fretboard. It's become a lot easier to see guide tones, and to finger and apply alternate scales to a chord. I was talking to a former bandmate, who has a similar history as far as guitar playing, and we both found we are making progress after more than 40 years of playing. We played in a band together for 20 years, and laughed about how it would have been much better to know the stuff we know now 30 years ago. We agreed it's better late and never!
But yeah, when I heard the tape of that old lesson, I was thinking "wake up you idiot!"
quote:
ORIGINAL: joevidetto
quote:
I thought wow, I was pretty thick.
I have the same feeling when I look back and listen to my lessons : ) Except I feel I am STILL pretty thick : )
RE: Which pieces have you learned fr... (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
For me encountering Faucher, I had to get used to his system but then I realized he had amazing accurate material. It was a mystery to me at first how he got it so correct, and later I learned he used video.
I wonder where he was getting the videos from. For some new pieces possibly youtube, but I remember some of his transcriptions from a long time when one couldn't find much material there. I have an impression that even now there's bunch of falsetas with no video recordings to find anywhere (but I might wrong of course, it's just my impression).
RE: Which pieces have you learned fr... (in reply to Filip)
quote:
I wonder where he was getting the videos from. For some new pieces possibly youtube, but I remember some of his transcriptions from a long time when one couldn't find much material there. I have an impression that even now there's bunch of falsetas with no video recordings to find anywhere (but I might wrong of course, it's just my impression).
I would reckon that after transcribing enough material from a given artist, or more generally for each palo, you get used to preferred shapes and such (which may change over time), allowing you to more confidently notate fingerings. Another potential explanation is that there is video of the same falseta, perhaps with some slight variations, in a different recording or adapted for a different palo. If you watch enough live and other video recordings you will see falsetas from albums pop up in different settings. A quick example would be Camaron's The intro falseta and the two falsetas starting at 50 seconds can be found in this Tomatito video at 30 seconds, 2:00, and 2:12, respectively. The falseta that connects the latter two falsetas pops up in this at 2:05. The intro falseta in the tangos video also happens the start "Tangos de la Sultana" on the same Camaron album mentioned previously.
RE: Which pieces have you learned fr... (in reply to Filip)
quote:
I wonder where he was getting the videos from. For some new pieces possibly youtube, but I remember some of his transcriptions from a long time when one couldn't find much material there. I have an impression that even now there's bunch of falsetas with no video recordings to find anywhere (but I might wrong of course, it's just my impression).
Before internet and youtube you could get Spanish TV on satellite and record the flamenco programmes. There was a guy in the UK used to do this and put together compilation VHS tapes that would get copied and passed around. The first dance teacher I played for lent/showed me some of those tapes, even though we lived in a different city she had them. I assume transcribers in other countries had similar access, either through satellite TV or friends in Spain taping the programmes and mailing them to them!
For the books Faucher has published he arranged video sessions with the artists to film them playing the material for him to transcribe. He says in some of the books where the video is different from the CD versions and he prints the video version. There are a few samples on his youtube channel:
RE: Which pieces have you learned fr... (in reply to joevidetto)
Scott and Mark, thanks a lot for that info. I guess I haven't given much thoughts for the possibility of VHS recordings, but now that I think it makes sense, and especially when I think about a few VHS recordings made by the people in the audience in the 80s (for example the two below). Faucher's videos are spot on, I didn't know he did that.
Posts: 1805
Joined: Nov. 8 2010
From: London (living in the Bay Area)
RE: Which pieces have you learned fr... (in reply to Filip)
quote:
I have an impression that even now there's bunch of falsetas with no video recordings to find anywhere (but I might wrong of course, it's just my impression).
I think you are not wrong: video in the modern sense didn’t even exist in the days when Sabicas recorded his LPs for ABC, and Faucher nails those.
RE: Which pieces have you learned fr... (in reply to Ricardo)
Great post Ricardo:
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ricardo [...]
I finally got it by ELIMINATING notes and starting on the notes that had the beat. After I got the feel I went back and added the pick up notes to the phrase...
[...]
when he played a phrase in compas, the rhythm info was being conveyed the same way we say sentences in language. You don’t have to think about the definition of each word to understand it...the words just add up to the MEANING of the phrase.
[...]
When a note is played, ANY note, from a tab or by ear, or video, whatever, that note contains RHYTHM information...and you need to NOT play that note without that specific info such that the NEXT note and the NEXT all add up correctly in your mind and heart as a rhythmic “sentence”. So I repeat that sentence until I feels secure, then add a few more notes to that base, and so on. Never play a group of notes haphazardly and say “oh I will just get the timing off the record later”
I feel like these are all connected.
One of my old teachers once told me "all ya gotta do is hit the right notes at the right time".
Seems obvious, but what ARE the right notes?
The way I see it, a phrase has a few important notes that give it its shape, and the rest take you from one important note to another using rhythmic gestures. As long as you maintain the general shape and rhythm, you can still "sound good" (or at least "not suck") and get the point across even without getting everything perfect.
RE: Which pieces have you learned fr... (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
I have seen many tabs made where there actually is NO rhythm written. That is a huge problem and relegates rhythm into an elusive category where “you just gotta FEEL it man, use your ear...”
Nothing wrong with guitar tabs with no rhythmic notation. Rhythmic notation will deliver additional information which can be ignored. Nice to know but definitely not a must. For example More than words by Extreme is one of the songs with tricky syncopated rhythm. Reading its rhythm is cumbersome. You have to use your ear only and play along with the song in mp3 without paying attention to the sheet music. Authentic guitar tab without rhythm notation is enough.
RE: Which pieces have you learned fr... (in reply to devilhand)
quote:
ORIGINAL: devilhand
quote:
I have seen many tabs made where there actually is NO rhythm written. That is a huge problem and relegates rhythm into an elusive category where “you just gotta FEEL it man, use your ear...”
Nothing wrong with guitar tabs with no rhythmic notation. Rhythmic notation will deliver additional information which can be ignored. Nice to know but definitely not a must. For example More than words by Extreme is one of the songs with tricky syncopated rhythm. Reading its rhythm is cumbersome. You have to use your ear only and play along with the song in mp3 without paying attention to the sheet music. Authentic guitar tab without rhythm notation is enough.
If you get good at reading rhythm it takes you less time to learn these tricky parts.
Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Which pieces have you learned fr... (in reply to devilhand)
quote:
You have to use your ear only and play along with the song
As we have seen too many times... the ear can fool you and you can get on the wrong track. Especially at low level but even advanced players. (Look at the on line arguement between musicians about the Roll Out song by ludicrous...hilarious.).
But in all honesty, you should not be ignoring those basic off beat rhythms in that simple song...learn how that reads and feels if you are going to use music scores at all...as I said many times it’s about rudiments, and that tune is basic off beats.
RE: Which pieces have you learned fr... (in reply to chester)
quote:
If you get good at reading rhythm it takes you less time to learn these tricky parts.
Equally, if you get good at ear skills it takes less time to learn these tricky parts. Question is, which is more useful for flamenco? I never had a dance teacher hand me a score for a choreography, or a rhythm chart for an escobilla. Do cantaores hand out scores for accompaniment? Plus, whether it's pop/rock songs, or flamenco guitar solos, who writes the scores? Usually not the composer, but someone else who had to transcribe it by ear
RE: Which pieces have you learned fr... (in reply to mark indigo)
Yeah sure, I never said reading is more important than than developing your ear. But it does make it easier to learn new things without being dependent on recorded material (assuming the transcription is accurate).
The more tools you can use the easier things get. The fact that flamenco rarely or never uses notation isn't a reason to not learn how to read it. Unless you're planning on only playing flamenco maybe, and in that case you have my condolences.
RE: Which pieces have you learned fr... (in reply to chester)
quote:
assuming the transcription is accurate
How many flamenco scores have you seen that were actually written by the composer and not transcribed by ear by someone else?
quote:
Unless you're planning on only playing flamenco maybe, and in that case you have my condolences.
when I realised that all the flamenco people I was listening had been immersed in it from birth I also realised I had some serious catching up to do and ditched pretty much all other music. That was nearly 30 years ago. I haven't caught up yet.
Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Which pieces have you learned fr... (in reply to mark indigo)
quote:
Equally, if you get good at ear skills it takes less time to learn these tricky parts. Question is, which is more useful for flamenco? I never had a dance teacher hand me a score for a choreography, or a rhythm chart for an escobilla. Do cantaores hand out scores for accompaniment? Plus, whether it's pop/rock songs, or flamenco guitar solos, who writes the scores? Usually not the composer, but someone else who had to transcribe it by ear
Of course true, but they don’t use TABS either. The point being made that you were replying to was in regards to Mano del diablo’s assertion that Rhythmic notation in conjunction with tabs was actually getting in the way of learning the song. . The point being, if you can actually read then the rhythmic notation is a hugely important tool for getting things correct....again it is a tool that if you know how to use it is not there to hurt you. Of course the most efficient way to learn flamenco is the traditional way of accompanying.
Printable Version
. The point being, if you can actually read then the rhythmic notation is a hugely important tool for getting things correct....again it is a tool that if you know how to use it is not there to hurt you. Of course the most efficient way to learn flamenco is the traditional way of accompanying. 
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