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RE: Tauromagia vid?
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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 RE: Tauromagia vid? (in reply to Ricardo)
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quote:
About empathy and flamenco .... Tauromagia is a story about the corrida from the perspective OF THE BULL. It is a glorious story and music full of meaning and tradition, experience of living life, pride, destiny, and yes tragedy that sadly must occur so that life continues. That actually is what life is about. Anyone living pain free forever actually never knows joy and ecstasy.
Along the lines of Ricardo's quote cited above, I have always found great inspiration in Teddy Roosevelt's speech, "The Man in the Arena."
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat."
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Feb. 15 2021 21:52:01
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Richard Jernigan
Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
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RE: Tauromagia vid? (in reply to BarkellWH)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: BarkellWH
quote:
I have said before that the corrida aficionado's empathy is compartmentalized. He or she enjoys a rapport with the torero's stylish bravery, but feels little or no compunction for the bull.
In most cases I agree with you, but as I have noted elsewhere in this thread, the audience attending a corrida may determine that a bull exhibits (by their definition) such bravery that they petition the president to issue an "indulta" (pardon) and spare the bull's life. I have never seen it happen, but I have not attended a corrida for decades (and do not intend to attend any in the future). Nevertheless, it does demonstrate that the audience pays some attention to, and has some empathy for, the bull.
Bill
Perhaps "empathy" was not the best word. A good bull is essential to a successful corrida: one which charges readily, sees well and runs straight so the matador can show his best stuff.
The aficionado's inevitable anthropomorphism admires such an animal. The aficionado's spirits are lifted by its "bravery." The knowledge that the bull faces insuperable odds adds to the aficionado's esteem, though the bull is unaware of his nearly certain fate.
Maybe "sympathy" would be better. If the torero is injured we are immediately concerned for a fellow human. Toreros are hurt more often than anti-bullfighters might seem to imagine. Sometimes the injury is slight. During a career of several years a torero is almost guaranteed a life-threatening wound and days or weeks in the hospital. Long periods do not pass without a matador killed in the ring. Whether he is injured due to the inevitable risks of the trade done right, or through his own foolishness or ineptitude, we feel immediate shock and concern.
Not so for the bull. He shows no pain or discouragement, the aficionado grants him no sympathy.
Part of the thrill of Roca Rey's performance in 2018 occurred when he was thrown by the bull. It happened close to the wooden fence separating the ruedo (the main arena) from the callejon. His cuadrilla took the bull off him nearly instantly. Almost before they were away with the bull, Roca Rey was on his feet and made another pass. He fixed the bull and walked away with a slight but visible swagger. The crowd roared.
Back at the Hotel Reina Victoria, Roca Rey stood outside the front door with his agent and cuadrilla, receiving congratulations. The right shoulder of his jacket was torn, there was fresh blood on his shoulder and cheek. He seemed to ignore it, and wore a brilliant smile as he received abrazos from his admirers.
That night the hotel bar and lighted patio were packed with an animated crowd taking drinks and tapas. The toreros circulated through the party. Even the picadores were well dressed and good looking, a far cry from the villainous and often disfigured characters of days gone by.
But in 2019 the bar and patio were relatively quiet in the evening after the corrida. I stayed in the room and had a sip of cognac while Larisa went to check things out. I was fearful of what I might say if I went downstairs.
RNJ
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Date Feb. 15 2021 23:02:17
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Ricardo
Posts: 14799
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: Tauromagia vid? (in reply to Guest)
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quote:
You seem to be arguing that because the bulls, prior to being cruelly tortured, are treated well then that makes the practice okay. So if I raise a child well, I then have the right to treat that child however I want - even in a cruel and painful way? No, both the bull and the child have intrinsic rights. We don’t have the right to treat them as utensils for our own selfish ends.
Well, I am saying the animal that has to die so that others might eat and survive can be celebrated on TV or consumed out of sight out of mind. Either way it will die, and so will we. That is the life cycle, to say it not fair is fine, but to pick and choose examples that aren’t to taste is hypocrisy. Each animal or plant or insect on earth did not “choose” to consume the other life forms it had to in order to survive. These “utensils for their own selfish ends” are simply the way life evolved on earth, humans included in that story, no fault of their own.
I absolutely do feel that certain “animal lovers” despite good intentions, take on to “care” for animals they believe to be protecting, in part because they get emotional about things like farms and corridas, however, they end up doing more harm than good in the end. Eventually we will “grow meat in the lab” and no one has to feel bad about it. Children, no matter how well and careful we raise them, we have to eventually let them go out on their own alone into the world, we don’t “own” them...unless you are Brittney spears Dad it is yet another painful part of living. Humans have their “rituals” to remember and celebrate sacrifices that were made in order for us to be here today. But these rituals will go extinct in time...just like us probably.
_____________________________
CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
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Date Feb. 15 2021 23:19:59
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Richard Jernigan
Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
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RE: Tauromagia vid? (in reply to Guest)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rasqeo77
No, both the bull and the child have intrinsic rights. We don’t have the right to treat them as utensils for our own selfish ends.
The corrida in its classic form arose in the late 18th and early 19th centuries, when the relationship of humans to animals was different from that of "civilized" people of the present day.
Modern people in cities have nearly no relationship to animals, except for their pets.
After my grandparents retired from the ranch and moved to San Antonio they had a sweet little dog I remember. But Grandpa, true to his rural ways, raised and fattened two turkeys each year, one for Thanksgiving and one for Christmas. He repeatedly warned one of my younger cousins not to befriend the birds. He did anyhow, and the holiday season was traumatic for him.
One Christmas when Don was about six he was inconsolable at the dinner table. He wept incessantly as the turkey was carved, despite being cajoled or enjoined to cut it out. It didn't take Grandma long to figure out that Grandpa had been giving Don a little wine as Grandpa enjoyed a glass or two while dinner was being fixed. Grandpa was in the doghouse for days.
In town, Grandma still kept chickens. Despite her airs of southern gentility, either she or the cook pursued the chicken to be fried for Sunday dinner, and chopped off its head with a sharp hatchet.
These days city people buy and eat plenty of dead animals, with little or no knowledge or thought of how they are raised, brought to market and slaughtered. The relationship to pets has shifted in my lifetime too. Dogs and cats used to have masters. Now they have "parents," at least in the USA.
On the ranch animals were treated with respect, but the relationship was intimate every working hour. Cattle were raised for the market. Each year a few were slaughtered, butchered and aged for consumption by my family and those of the vaqueros.
Friendly relationships were formed between people and horses, but the horses had to be skilled and reliable. They were not indulged in eccentricities or disabilities.
Cattle were treated decently according to the standards of the industry, but no love was lost toward bulls which would kill you instantly if ever given a moment's opportunity. Cows could be dangerous, too, but were seldom actively murderous.
It seems to me that the ranch culture toward animals was far more closely aligned to that of 19th century Andalucia than is the culture of modern cities. As the rural culture of 19th- and early 20th-century Andalucia fades into the Spanish background, so does the corrida. Flamenco survives, but in altered form.
For nine months of the year as a child and full time as an adult I have been a city person. It shaped many of my attitudes. Stiil, I retain some of my multicultural childhood as an Air Force brat and Texas ranch boy.
Our attitudes toward animals are clearly cultural, as long as we keep eating them, and would still be if we quit. Evolutionary biologists say we evolved as meat eaters to feed our large brains via attenuated intestines. At least we don't tear animals apart and eat them alive as some of our primate relatives do to the monkeys they catch.
This is not to criticize vegans or vegetarians. As far as I am concerned they are welcome to their attitudes toward animals. That is, as long as they don't insist upon recruiting me or their dogs and cats into their culture. I suppose I am old and set in my ways.
I was a bit set in my ways when I was young. I seldom lined up perfectly with the variety of cultures I was immersed in, but I learned to pretty much keep quiet about it. It's a prevalent characteristic of military children or others who have been exposed to a number of different environments.
RNJ
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Date Feb. 16 2021 1:04:29
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Richard Jernigan
Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
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RE: Tauromagia vid? (in reply to Guest)
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Cruelty to animals, like racism is a prevalent human vice. Children should be taught not to practice either. A majority of younger people in Spain have come to see the corrida as animal abuse, and I have to agree that on balance it is, as I have seen it practiced recently.
People in U.S. cities these days know little or nothing about the treatment of the animals they eat, and do not feel responsible for it.
On the ranch the few cattle slaughtered each year were killed by a large caliber pistol bullet to the brain. A bullet with a solid copper jacket was used, so as not to unduly damage the head, which was prepared by some of the vaqueros' families as traditional Mexican barbacoa. Other cattle were kept away, so as not to alarm them.
Temple Grandin, the acclaimed autistic scientist and advocate for the humane treatment of livestock, tells a very sad story. Penned up across the street from a slaughterhouse were a number of cattle. They could hear the cries of their predecessors, and smell their blood and guts. They were all trembling in fear.
It's only a little trouble in Austin to find grass fed beef slaughtered on local farms, and free range chicken. It doesn't cost much more than the mass produced stuff, but they are definitely niche products. In Paris in the 1980s-90s when I was there regularly on business, meat and poultry advertised as humanely produced seemed to be just about as available as the rest.
RNJ
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Date Feb. 16 2021 23:10:56
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Richard Jernigan
Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
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RE: Tauromagia vid? (in reply to Mark2)
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A detailed account of escaping poverty as a torero is "Or I'll Dress You in Mourning," a biography of El Cordobés.
The title is a quote from the torero. After years of utter poverty, walking from town to town, stealing fruit from orchards to eat, sneaking into bull ranches on moonlit nights to cape the bulls and learn his trade, El Cordobés finally landed a decent paying gig in the town where he was born.
His parents died when he was young, he was raised in abject poverty by his older sister. Often there was not enough to eat. His clothes and shoes were worn out and patched. His sister worried constantly about his flaming desire to be a torero since he was a boy. Before he entered the ring that day she told him she couldn't stand to watch. He told her to go down the street to the shop with a TV in the window and watch there.
"Don't worry," he said. "Today I will either buy you a house, or I'll dress you in mourning."
"Seeking Silverio" is a partly fictionalized account of three poor boys from the Barrio Santiago of Jerez setting out on foot to find Silverio Franconetti, to learn more of the art of flamenco from him. They supported themselves on their trek by performing in wayside taverns. The three boys were Antonio Chacon; Javier Molina, the great guitarist and teacher of generations of Jerezanos; and Javier's brother, the bailaor Antonio Molina. The story is well known as oral history, flamenco folklore. Some details are filled in by the author Paco Sevilla. The book captures the flavor of setting out flat broke on a quest for knowledge, the beginnings of three of the greatest performers ot El Arte.
Chacon is known to every aficionado. Paco Cepero is one of the last of Javier's students to become famous. Manolo Sanlucar's father rode his bicycle every week from Sanlucar to Jerez to study with Javier. Niño Ricardo and Manolo de Huelva worked for Javier at his tablao, and played many of the same falsetas.
RNJ
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Date Feb. 17 2021 4:16:27
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gerundino63
Posts: 1743
Joined: Jul. 11 2003
From: The Netherlands
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RE: Tauromagia vid? (in reply to Guest)
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I Think two things happen here.
One: we have to be distaced to animals, otherwise we cannot eat them.
f.i. If vegetable would screem if we eat them, we couldnot eat vegetables eather.
Two, bullfighting is cultural. Cultural is going back for ages.
In the Netherland we haveSaint Nicolas and black Piet.
It goes back to early ages and became an Germanic habit. Black Piet was the devilish man who put naughty children in a bag.
The German habit is christified, with a mix of Saint Nicolas.
The black Piet made his face black. Ages nothing happened, there where no black people in Northern Europe.
Nowadays, black people say this is blackface and very offending.
Now we have a big clash in the Netherlands. Black Piet is dissapering, times are chainging, but it is not going easy and without a struggle.
Cultural things chainge, but very very slow. It is fair to give the people some time, and it is also fair to give the more progressive people a listening ear.
_____________________________
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Date Feb. 17 2021 10:15:58
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: Tauromagia vid? (in reply to devilhand)
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quote:
Bullfighting is not Andalusian thing and has nothing to do with gitanos and flamenco cante and guitar.
You seem to be fond of making categorical statements, Devilhand, such as your quote cited above. To be so sure of yourself, one assumes you have made more than a superficial study to conclude that "Bullfighting is not an Andalusian thing and has nothing to do with gitanos and flamenco cante and guitar."
While the corrida is not "just" an Andalusian thing, it certainly is a part of Andalusian culture. But more to the point, how many gitanos have you sat down with and talked to about the connection (or lack thereof) between the corrida and flamenco? What have these discussions revealed that lead you to conclude there is no connection between the two? What other studies or experiences have contributed to your conclusion?
While I don't think there is a "causal" relationship between the corrida and flamenco, i.e., I don't think each was necessarily dependent upon the other for its existence, I do think each has been influenced by the other. In particular, I think the corrida has had much influence on flamenco. The themes of life, death, tragedy, and courage in the face of adversity run through both the corrida and flamenco. It is those themes that create the bond between the two, in my opinion.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Feb. 17 2021 13:47:41
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Ricardo
Posts: 14799
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: Tauromagia vid? (in reply to Guest)
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quote:
And many flamencos are also big fans of football. Some probably play it, like Paco did. Does that mean football and flamenco are closely linked? I don’t think you understand the point being made.
You might as well say what does speaking spanish, eating jamon Iberico and drinking manzanilla have to do with flamenco...The OP is about the direct connection but you have chosen to ignore THAT and separate the two, one being a (in your opinion) beautiful music and dance and the other (in YOUR OPINION) some weird animal torture practice. Well sorry you don’t get to do that, the two are already intertwined by the CULTURE of region. This is what is done by the people in Andalucia...not all people drink sherry, eat ham, dance sevillanas, speak Andalu, or involve in flamenco, work in a fragua or a mine shaft. But everyone that understands culture will see the connection there if they have been involved in these activities or lived there. You can argue against the practice and rally for breaking the cultural connection on moral grounds along with abolishing alchohol and eating meat or working in heavy industry that contribute carbon foot prints. But understand it would be a forced amputation in each case. Next up, deforestation and guitars. As I stated earlier the hypocrisy would be to take the moral high ground on only one issue here.
_____________________________
CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
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Date Feb. 17 2021 14:03:04
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Mark2
Posts: 1871
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco
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RE: Tauromagia vid? (in reply to devilhand)
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NBA, NFL, and MLB are all closely linked for a kid living in poverty who also happens to be a great athlete. They all represent the possibility of a better life.
You have Morente, who lives in Spain, and is deeply involved in flamenco, and Ricardo, a person who likely has close to 30 years of experience and is a professional flamenco guitarist, give their opinion but you dismiss it? How do you expect to learn if you dismiss those who have more experience? Have you ever been to Spain? Ever studied with a guitarist from Spain? What is the basis for your opinion? Books, videos, what?
I can guarantee you that my teacher thought they were "Closely linked" or "strongly bonded" I don't know that he thought they couldn't exist without each other, but I never made that claim. Why on earth would I consider your opinion to have more validity than his?
And what do you know about Baile, modern or otherwise? Ever studied flamenco dance? Ever played for it? How many years? Hell, we should all be taking lessons from you. No experience but you know everything.
quote:
ORIGINAL: devilhand
quote:
I also think the two arts are closely bonded. My first teacher was born in 1924. His family was extremely poor. It's my understanding that like inner city kids who dream of the NBA or the NFL to escape poverty, bullfighting and flamenco were the possibilities for kids of his generation.
Hahaha! If NBA and NFL are closely bonded then according to your logic flamenco and bullfighting must be also closely bonded. You're comparing here apples with bananas.
Bullfighting is not Andalusian thing and has nothing to do with gitanos and flamenco cante and guitar. As mentionded above modern flamenco baile is influenced by some upper body movements in bullfighting. Probably this kind of modern flamenco baile is not really flamenco just like flamenco baile influenced by Ballet.
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Date Feb. 17 2021 17:16:48
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Ricardo
Posts: 14799
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: Tauromagia vid? (in reply to Guest)
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quote:
If that’s directed at me then feel free to educate me, rather than resorting to indirect insults.
Actually, the words you used for bullfight aficionados was “thick, ignorant and psychotic”. You expressed that they lack empathy for the animal and that the animal doesn’t exhibit bravery. While what you say doesn’t bother ME, I read them as insulting to the “bullfight aficionados”. You claim there is a superficial connection to flamenco only, yet called on ME as one who might know what the Palos of Tauromagia were rather than doing that yourself. The answer to WHY do I think those are the correct palos is an extremely deep and involved answer, and it ties in to why myself and other flamenco artists look at that single work as more than a decent example of a modern guitar record, but rather the GREATEST solo guitar statement in the history of flamenco guitar...and no it WOULD NOT EXIST if the relationship was broken. The fact the theme is bullfight is not incidental, and thusly some equally complex and as deep as what “flamenco palos” have to do with his compositions and cante, are going to be needed as the answer. For example empathy you wrongly assume taurinos don’t have for the fighting bull etc...it is all right in the subject matter.
Yes people can enjoy the music without understanding what the palos are, or the cante, or compas, or guitar technique, or the corrida....but THAT enjoyment is the superficial kind. The deeper enjoyment comes from the understanding music and story, of which an encyclopedia could be written about that little album and everything that is going on with it. Indeed, Manolo might very well being including these aspects in his ridiculous giant “opus” we have been waiting for. Sure people will have the superficial view that “wow, $600 for learning a falseta? Who cares about that old fashioned yelling and the animal torture stuff?? I’ll pass and go to youtube and maybe learn his tremolo”.
_____________________________
CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
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Date Feb. 17 2021 17:22:17
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Mark2
Posts: 1871
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco
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RE: Tauromagia vid? (in reply to Richard Jernigan)
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Thanks for this post. Sounds a lot like my teacher's story. He told me his mother paid for his lessons from Raphael Nogales, and that it often meant they were short of food. For this reason he would run home after every lesson to practice so that he wouldn't forget anything he was taught. He said he never forgot a single falseta.
I drove to my lessons in a new car, and pulled out a cassette for him to record the falsetas for me. I've forgotten many of them.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Richard Jernigan
A detailed account of escaping poverty as a torero is "Or I'll Dress You in Mourning," a biography of El Cordobés.
The title is a quote from the torero. After years of utter poverty, walking from town to town, stealing fruit from orchards to eat, sneaking into bull ranches on moonlit nights to cape the bulls and learn his trade, El Cordobés finally landed a decent paying gig in the town where he was born.
His parents died when he was young, he was raised in abject poverty by his older sister. Often there was not enough to eat. His clothes and shoes were worn out and patched. His sister worried constantly about his flaming desire to be a torero since he was a boy. Before he entered the ring that day she told him she couldn't stand to watch. He told her to go down the street to the shop with a TV in the window and watch there.
"Don't worry," he said. "Today I will either buy you a house, or I'll dress you in mourning."
"Seeking Silverio" is a partly fictionalized account of three poor boys from the Barrio Santiago of Jerez setting out on foot to find Silverio Franconetti, to learn more of the art of flamenco from him. They supported themselves on their trek by performing in wayside taverns. The three boys were Antonio Chacon; Javier Molina, the great guitarist and teacher of generations of Jerezanos; and Javier's brother, the bailaor Antonio Molina. The story is well known as oral history, flamenco folklore. Some details are filled in by the author Paco Sevilla. The book captures the flavor of setting out flat broke on a quest for knowledge, the beginnings of three of the greatest performers ot El Arte.
Chacon is known to every aficionado. Paco Cepero is one of the last of Javier's students to become famous. Manolo Sanlucar's father rode his bicycle every week from Sanlucar to Jerez to study with Javier. Niño Ricardo and Manolo de Huelva worked for Javier at his tablao, and played many of the same falsetas.
RNJ
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Date Feb. 17 2021 17:26:53
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: Tauromagia vid? (in reply to Guest)
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quote:
Why is it so connected with bullfighting, as you claim? You or Morente or any other self appointed experts on here still haven't explained that despite me asking repeatedly. It's almost as if you're trying to avoid answering the question.
Although I do not consider myself an "expert," self-appointed or otherwise, I offered my explanation in my comment above and repeat it here.
"In particular, I think the corrida has had much influence on flamenco. The themes of life, death, tragedy, and courage in the face of adversity run through both the corrida and flamenco. It is those themes that create the bond between the two, in my opinion."
You may agree or disagree with it, but you cannot say that ..."any other self-appointed experts on here still haven't explained that despite me asking repeatedly." No one is "trying to avoid answering the question," but it appears that you refuse to acknowledge any explanation with which you disagree.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Feb. 17 2021 18:11:20
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