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RE: Tauromagia vid?
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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 RE: Tauromagia vid? (in reply to Morante)
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quote:
Strange how everybody loves this album but nobody accepts its subject matter.
Now, I am not an expert on the "corrida" by any means, but I always had an interest in it, even as a teenager. It probably had something to do with my love of the works of Ernest Hemingway. In fact, my introduction to the "corrida" came first from reading Hemingway's "Death in the Afternoon," and later "The Dangerous Summer," Hemingway's account of the competition (mano a mano) between Antonio Ordonez and Luis Miguel Dominguin during the 1959 bullfighting season.
Both works are still worth reading today.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Feb. 13 2021 23:59:45
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: Tauromagia vid? (in reply to joevidetto)
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My interest in the corrida has not been so much in the spectacle itself; rather, how it relates and has been central to Spanish culture. My comment above was not written in praise of the corrida. It was meant to convey how my interest was piqued (early on by Hemingway, later by attending corridas in Spain, Mexico, and Bogota, Colombia.)
I have not attended a corrida for years and have no interest in attending any in the future. While I appreciate the skill of a good matador, his courage is diminished in my eyes with the picador's work in the first third of the corrida. The picador digging into and weakening the bull's neck muscles. I realize that is an argument a real aficionado won't buy, but there it is.
Nevertheless, I still recommend Hemingway's "Death in the Afternoon" and "The Dangerous Summer." They are worth reading whether one is a novice or an aficionado of the corrida.
While on the subject, I recall years ago mentioning on the Foro that the American film star Ava Gardner took on Luis Miguel Dominguin as a lover in 1954, before his "Dangerous Summer' with Antonio Ordonez in 1959. Simon wrote a comment at the time that he once met and had drinks with Ava Gardner and might relate the story sometime. I don't recall you ever expanding on your enigmatic reference to drinking with Ava Gardner, Simon. Could you favor us with the story now?
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Feb. 14 2021 15:14:20
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Escribano
Posts: 6415
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy
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RE: Tauromagia vid? (in reply to BarkellWH)
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quote:
Simon wrote a comment at the time that he once met and had drinks with Ava Gardner and might relate the story sometime. I don't recall you ever expanding on your enigmatic reference to drinking with Ava Gardner, Simon. Could you favor us with the story now?
I didn't have drinks with her. I was working at a drug and alcohol rehab. clinic in Chelsea, London in 1981-82. She was a patient and I used to get her newspapers every morning. I would then sit on her bed as she regaled me with all kinds of stories. She would talk about her ex, Frank a lot. I didn't know her real name, I just knew her as Mrs. Green. We became pretty good friends considering the circumstances.
It wasn't until she was checking out that the taxi driver told me who she was. Frank was Sinatra. A cantankerous, feisty and interesting lady, though she was going downhill back then. My Dad's favourite actress. She died a few years later. 
I did have a few drinks with John Paul Getty's girlfriend at the time, though and just missed out on a blind date with a certain Lady Diana Spencer 
And whilst I am name-dropping, I got to know Zandra Rhodes, met Dr. Henry Kissinger in the US and treated the Queen Mother when she swallowed a fish bone.
Also, the Duchess of Argyll hit on me a couple of times and I lent Kim Gordon of Sonic Youth, my guitar cable when we supported them at the 100 Club. Not forgetting buying Nico of Velvet Underground, a drink in Rotterdam where we were playing on the same bill.
That's all I can remember, for now. 
_____________________________
Foro Flamenco founder and Admin
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Date Feb. 14 2021 17:01:45
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Ricardo
Posts: 14797
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: Tauromagia vid? (in reply to Guest)
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quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: rasqeo77
I don’t have any problem with it’s depiction in art and literature etc. I’ve also read Hemingway. It’s a part of Spanish culture and history and I don’t believe that history should be erased. I just don’t think it should be practiced anymore, in the same way that we no longer find it acceptable to feed people to lions.
It is going away. So is flamenco and many other things that are actually not “bad” at all. However, the animal will now continue to live or die at human hands, but with no glory or fighting chance or relevance or connection to his killer. Just “used” like all other plants and animals on this planet that we take for granted.
Joe’s comment above about animals don’t GENERALLY torture their prey, well, neither do humans. But sometimes they do, watch any nature program. It is part of nature. The arrogant approach to somehow rise above it as humans, pretending there is no direct connection, to pretend it doesn’t “suffer” by aborting its chance to experience the fight of living, is leading us towards the mass extinction we are already involved in. Eventually we will “grow” any and all earth based life in a laboratory as we choose. It will all be so “humane”...but is it truly the respectful thing to do? Eventually it won’t matter, but for now, I think the art of flamenco and the corrida remain closely bonded.
_____________________________
CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
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Date Feb. 14 2021 21:42:09
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joevidetto
Posts: 191
Joined: Jun. 15 2013
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RE: Tauromagia vid? (in reply to BarkellWH)
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quote:
It is going away. So is flamenco and many other things that are actually not “bad” at all.
It sounds like you are defending the practice....suppose it was done more often, and on dogs...just because a group of people liked the idea, enjoyed it, and found it entertaining...or how about on monkeys ? Is it ok and "not bad" based on the frequency ? I think the humans fed to lions example is quite valid...for some people - there are other ethnicities whose human lives mean nothing, and even less than an animal's. Look at what went on in Africa with all that genocide and limbs being cut off. I'm sure the people doing that violence would have no problem with the sport of human lion-feeding. Nobody is denying what humans are capable of under the right conditions - even me or anybody else holding similar views is capable of these things under the "right" conditions.
Morality is in many cases a luxury you are born into, given the luck of not being indoctrinated by parents, culture, governement, economic need etc.
Is an animal's life so much less than a human's ? For some - it is...under US law, an animal is an 'object'...yet there are some rules about not abusing them...because we know an animal is so much more than an object.
Some people that are religious see the animals put here solely for their consumption, to do with as they please, based on scripture references.
Dog fights, cock fights...I'm going to guess these are "not bad" either. I don't think they are fair to the animal, especially when contrived for our entertainment....just my personal.
I accept that many people don't share my views. Chinese people farm and eat dogs...there are a LOT of Chinese people that need to be fed...you can see why a convenient source of meet trumps the feelings or suffering of the dogs.
Should dairy farms and large scale chicken farms be able to do the abhorrent things to animals that they do ? And if people report that, should those people be jailed for going onto public property ? At what point does an animal's right to live and not suffer become important ?
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Date Feb. 14 2021 22:03:58
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: Tauromagia vid? (in reply to Escribano)
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quote:
I didn't have drinks with her. I was working at a drug and alcohol rehab. clinic in Chelsea, London in 1981-82. She was a patient and I used to get her newspapers every morning. I would then sit on her bed as she regaled me with all kinds of stories. She would talk about her ex, Frank a lot. I didn't know her real name, I just knew her as Mrs. Green. We became pretty good friends considering the circumstances.
Thanks, Simon. I always liked Ava Gardner, from the time I was a teenager in Arizona. I particularly liked her performances in the films "The Barefoot Contessa" with Humphrey Bogart and "The Night of the Iguana" with Richard Burton. She definitely lived life on her own terms. And she always had that connection to Spain. I imagine it was quite an experience hearing her relate stories of her life.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Feb. 14 2021 22:38:04
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Richard Jernigan
Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
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RE: Tauromagia vid? (in reply to mrstwinkle)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mrstwinkle
I grew up on a dairy farm.
I'm more scared of cows with calves than of bulls.
Nature.
I've been attacked by both.
I was six years old in the case of the cow. She was part of a small dairy herd. Her calf was "down" and the cow had not rejoined the herd. She was known to have been well behaved with previous calves. I was in the company of my mother, her sister, my brother, and a well built 17-year old cousin. The cow and calf were in a grassy part of a fairly large barnyard. As we approached to try to see what was wrong with the calf, the cow suddenly charged. She targeted me, perhaps as the smallest member of the group. My cousin probably saved my life when he picked up a piece of timber, stepped toward the cow, and hit her on the head hard enough to bring her to her knees.
From age 4 to age 17 I spent every summer on a south Texas cattle ranch. After WW II the herd was transitioned to the Santa Gertrudis breed, developed by the King Ranch. Santa Gertrudis bulls are notoriously aggressive. The "best one" for several years, judged by his offspring, was both crafty and murderous. Coastal Bermuda grass, imported from Africa, will grow more than six feet tall if there's plenty of rain. This bull would hide in the tall grass and ambush any human he could, whether the person was mounted or on foot. All other bulls of the same breed on the ranch were mortally dangerous too.
I have said before that the corrida aficionado's empathy is compartmentalized. He or she enjoys a rapport with the torero's stylish bravery, but feels little or no compunction for the bull. In my opinion, a major reason for this is that the bull shows no sign whatsoever of pain or suffering. He does what he is bred to do: he tries to kill any other living thing in the ring, with single minded determination. To human anthropomorphism this looks like bravery, just as the Santa Gertrudis bull's craftiness and aggression look like criminal intent. It requires some abstract thought to consider the bull's situation, while the actions of the matador and banderillero are stylized to emphatically display skill and grace in the face of danger, with immediate effect. It used to be that the picadors were disparaged and whistled at in contempt when they entered the ring. Nowadays the horses are pretty well armored, and the bulls are pic'ed far less and far less savagely.
When I was young, 90% of the people in south Texas spoke Spanish at home. The corrida was illegal in Texas, but readily available 30 miles away, just across the river. I was an aficionado in my youth. I attended regularly at the old Plaza Mexico in the Capital, at the spectacular ring of Zacatecas and elsewhere in Mexico, and during youthful trips to Spain. From November to March, the off season in Spain, the greatest toreros would come to Mexico. The opportunity to attend diminished as I moved away from Texas and spent more time on business.
Out of curiosity I attended the Corrida Goyesca in Ronda in 2018 and 2019. It was sold out both times. In 2018 I was surprised when the young Peruvian Andres Roca Rey excited some of the old emotions.
In 2019 I was surprised at the Spaniards' apparent indifference to the cynical swindle we were subjected to. More than once I had seen the upper tiers of the Plaza Mexico boil over in rage and attack the ring for far lesser offenses than the cowardice shown by the toreros and the obviously drugged bulls. The Spaniards just sat there.
Either way, at my present age I agree with the Spanish Ilustrados of the 19th century who spoke against the corrida. In the old days it may have had some value as an object lesson in how to face death. These days, despite the pandemic we face death far less often than the Spanish did in the 19th century, and we avoid facing it when we can.
The corrida is disappearing of its own accord, hastened I would think, by the sort of crimes committed at Ronda in 2019. I was fortunate to experience it in my youth. I am fortunate to have lived long enough to see it fade away.
RNJ
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Date Feb. 15 2021 1:14:49
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: Tauromagia vid? (in reply to Richard Jernigan)
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quote:
I have said before that the corrida aficionado's empathy is compartmentalized. He or she enjoys a rapport with the torero's stylish bravery, but feels little or no compunction for the bull.
In most cases I agree with you, but as I have noted elsewhere in this thread, the audience attending a corrida may determine that a bull exhibits (by their definition) such bravery that they petition the president to issue an "indulta" (pardon) and spare the bull's life. I have never seen it happen, but I have not attended a corrida for decades (and do not intend to attend any in the future). Nevertheless, it does demonstrate that the audience pays some attention to, and has some empathy for, the bull.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Feb. 15 2021 3:08:19
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: Tauromagia vid? (in reply to Richard Jernigan)
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quote:
The corrida is disappearing of its own accord, hastened I would think, by the sort of crimes committed at Ronda in 2019. I was fortunate to experience it in my youth. I am fortunate to have lived long enough to see it fade away.
I agree that the corrida will eventually disappear, just as I think flamenco as we know it will disappear and (except for a small "niche") be absorbed into "World Music," defined by some music critics as the fusion of non-Western music with Western pop and rock (as opposed to the definition as being a "bin" filled with non-Western music). Nevertheless, I wouldn't bet we will see the corrida "fade away" completely in our lifetime, Richard. There are still strong elements in Spain that support it.
As Spain becomes more "Europeanized" the demise of the corrida will be accelerated. Catalonia provides a good example of that, but it also provides an example of the strong elements in Spanish culture that oppose its demise. Catalonia is the most "Europeanized" region of Spain, in some respects more akin to the south of France than to Spain. In 2010, the Catalan regional parliament banned the corrida. Nevertheless, in 2016, the Spanish Constitutional Court overturned the Catalan ban on the basis that the corrida is part of the "Patrimony of Spain," and therefore cannot be banned by a regional parliament.
When we get into Andalusia and Extremadura, we are in a more "Orientalist" culture than European. We have discussed in another thread how the Spanish feel comfortable in Morocco, for example. There are the two enclaves of Melilla and Ceuta on the Moroccan coast that Spain has held since the 17th century. Originally claimed by Portugal, Spain still holds them today. And Spain held Spanish Sahara (today known as Western Sahara) since the 19th century. It relinquished the territory, which claims independence but which Morocco now claims.
Politically and economically, Spain has been integrated into Europe. But culturally, Spain (particularly Andalusia and Extremadura, as well as some other parts) still retains that "Oriental" touch that, in my opinion, has set it apart and made it such an interesting country. Nevertheless, European values will eventually prevail, leading to the corrida's demise and its being relegated to something people will read about in the history books.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Feb. 15 2021 14:21:43
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