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RE: The Trump Nightmare is Over!
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estebanana
Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
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 RE: The Trump Nightmare is Over! (in reply to Mark2)
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Nope, you’re off base/ Prop 13 gutted CA schools- the problem is that Jarvis was draconian, it stripped public school funding and pushed California below the average per student budget. It killed off vocational programs. The problem was that prop 13 as written in 1978 was too drastic and didn’t approach the relationship between local property taxes and school funding, it just leveled how much matching funding came from property tax no matter whether the district was rich or poor or anything in between. Property Tax decreased by 60% and it virtually cut out the joint funding that the state and local government worked together to create.
School funding works by three funds joining together to make complicated system of matching funds to reach a national average per student amount. Ca uses state and federal money, states that don’t have that structure use three sources - local tax, state funding, federal funding, I believe Texas for example uses the tri fund system. Texas schools are above national average funding per student, Ca still below.
What does it mean? It means kids in Oakland don’t have access to programs that would propel them to go to school five miles away at UC Berkeley, but wealthy kids in Santa Barbara 275 miles away can choose between UC San Diego or UC Berkeley. It set up a dynamic of savage inequalities between rich and poor districts and rich and poor parents.
There’s no question that Prop 13 hurt education, and it’s a subject that has been extensively debated and written about in popular news and education journals. No question about it. It’s a non starter to claim that just my kids sailed through school that millions of others were not disadvantaged by the drastic change to school funding in 1979, the years after it passed.
For anyone interested this article is a beginning synopsis of how schools and families were effected, it’s one study among dozens and many studied are peer reviewed from education and political publications.
https://www.kqed.org/news/11701044/how-proposition-13-transformed-neighborhood-public-schools-throughout-california
Here’s a thoughtful Op Ed from LA Times June 2020 as to what a reasonable reform to 13 looks like-
Agriculture and residential land isn’t involved, only a change to corporate tax and high end residential ( I’m not crying a river for landlords in California)
https://www.google.co.jp/amp/s/www.latimes.com/opinion/story/2020-07-16/proposition-13-proposition-15-property-tax-revolt%3f_amp=true
_____________________________
https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
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Date Jan. 13 2021 0:33:57
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Mark2
Posts: 1871
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco
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RE: The Trump Nightmare is Over! (in reply to estebanana)
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Says the guy who has no kids who actually went to these schools and doesn't pay property tax in CA. You have zero actual experience with putting kids through through public schools but you know what's happening? Never went to a PTA meeting, never went to a parent teacher conference. Have you even been on an elementary, middle, or HS campus in the last 20 years? But you've read articles....
Based on the geniuses who raided the capital, few of whom are from CA, much less the bay area, I'd say CA is ahead of a lot of states.
The fact that you mention poor kids from Oakland who can't get into Berkeley....you apparently have no idea how hard it is for ANY kid to get into a UC, much less Berkeley or UCLA. I can tell you what it takes-parental support and engagement, as well as a really bright kid with an exceptional work ethic. I've talked to parents who's kids had 4-4.5 GPA's who didn't get into Berkeley. An address in Santa Barbara isn't going to cut it if the other things are not in place. One of my "rich" friends sent his daughter to SI in the city. Exclusive private high school. My kid was turned down there. She didn't get into the quality of college as my kid, who went to public HS. It's about the kid. Sorta like my Lester isn't going to make me sound like Antonio Rey.
My job has taken me to dozens of SF public school facilities in the last 30 years. I can tell you how they spend some of their money. There was the time they re-named a school for Thurgood Marshall. His widow was going to attend the re-opening so they spent over 100k doing minor fix ups like washing all the windows so the Mayor and his widow wouldn't have to see the dirty windows. Then there was the facilities head of SFUSD who lost his job because he took kick backs from contractors. Then of course all work has to pay prevailing wages, which are about double the wages that actually prevail in the market. The waste is compelling.
When it comes to building guitars, I'll take your word over anything I might think I know. When it comes to putting kids through public schools in my area, their condition, and the opportunities they offer to kids, I'll keep my own counsel.
quote:
ORIGINAL: estebanana
Nope, you’re off base/ Prop 13 gutted CA schools- the problem is that Jarvis was draconian, it stripped public school funding and pushed California below the average per student budget. It killed off vocational programs. The problem was that prop 13 as written in 1978 was too drastic and didn’t approach the relationship between local property taxes and school funding, it just leveled how much matching funding came from property tax no matter whether the district was rich or poor or anything in between. Property Tax decreased by 60% and it virtually cut out the joint funding that the state and local government worked together to create.
School funding works by three funds joining together to make complicated system of matching funds to reach a national average per student amount. Ca uses state and federal money, states that don’t have that structure use three sources - local tax, state funding, federal funding, I believe Texas for example uses the tri fund system. Texas schools are above national average funding per student, Ca still below.
What does it mean? It means kids in Oakland don’t have access to programs that would propel them to go to school five miles away at UC Berkeley, but wealthy kids in Santa Barbara 275 miles away can choose between UC San Diego or UC Berkeley. It set up a dynamic of savage inequalities between rich and poor districts and rich and poor parents.
There’s no question that Prop 13 hurt education, and it’s a subject that has been extensively debated and written about in popular news and education journals. No question about it. It’s a non starter to claim that just my kids sailed through school that millions of others were not disadvantaged by the drastic change to school funding in 1979, the years after it passed.
For anyone interested this article is a beginning synopsis of how schools and families were effected, it’s one study among dozens and many studied are peer reviewed from education and political publications.
https://www.kqed.org/news/11701044/how-proposition-13-transformed-neighborhood-public-schools-throughout-california
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Date Jan. 13 2021 1:22:28
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: The Trump Nightmare is Over! (in reply to Ricardo)
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quote:
Teachers are jumping ship because of PARENTS trying to let kids get credit for not trying.
How things have changed. When I was a kid, if I didn't do well on a test or got a mediocre grade on a report card, my parents sat me down, read me the riot act, and grounded me for a period of time.
Now, if a kid doesn't do well on a test or gets a mediocre grade on a report card, his parents storm down to the the classroom, confront the teacher, and blame the teacher for not "coddling" their little darling.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Jan. 13 2021 15:30:43
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Mark2
Posts: 1871
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco
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RE: The Trump Nightmare is Over! (in reply to estebanana)
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We all have an agenda. For me, it is all about my kids, my community, and yes, the amount of tax required. I don't stay up nights worrying about teacher salaries and benefits, but I have voted for several bond measures and assessments that benefitted schools. I do believe a well educated population is the best way to improve the country. But I don't think taking the brakes off the ability of the government to increase property tax is equitable or even moral. Under 15, some long time property owners would have been forced to sell their properties simply because they couldn't afford the PT.
As it stands today, property tax bills in San Francisco include four extra assessments for schools-one for school facilities, one to provide a living wage for teachers, another for teacher support, and one extra parcel tax. In Pacifica there are five extra charges related to schools. Pacifica is also building subsidized housing for school district employees. What's next? Housing for cops? How about plumbers? Let's face it, there will never be enough money for schools according to some of the folks who work in them. And that is human nature. I'd like to receive more for my work as well.
Here is some interesting data that to me, indicates the sky isn't exactly falling with regards to school funding, but again I understand that some will feel it's not enough. So be it.
https://lao.ca.gov/Publications/Report/4136
quote:
ORIGINAL: estebanana
No, says a former teacher in Oakland and SF
You don’t know anything about curriculum. You’re totally off base.
It not about your kids or my family- it’s about teacher salary, support per student and curriculum cuts and cuts to student services. Not to mention the wrong kind of corporate granting and gifting.
The cuts to programs after Jarvis were drastic, this is widely acknowledged.
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Date Jan. 13 2021 17:59:04
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Mark2
Posts: 1871
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco
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RE: The Trump Nightmare is Over! (in reply to chester)
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Agreed, the majority were sold a bill of goods IMO. "Your 401K will crash, your guns will be taken away, the US will become a socialist country", etc. Overblown.
But we might disagree on the definition of "rich"
To me it means you have enough to do what you want, when you want, without regard to the cost. Obviously the amount varies from person to person.
To the dems, it means anyone earning more than a certain amount, without regard to regional differences in the cost of living. Obama picked 250k, Biden seems to think it's 400k.
In the bay area, I don't think that number does it for a lot of people.
quote:
ORIGINAL: chester
quote:
I know a few trump supporters who are friends. They are successful relatively wealthy business owners. I'm pretty sure their motivations have nothing to do with your description.
Rich people voting republican in order to pay less taxes is one thing, but the vast majority of MAGA people do not stand to gain from the republican tax reform. Instead they're led to believe that the Democrats will institute some form of totalitarian regime where personal ownership is outlawed, statues of satan will be erected in every street corner, and pregnant women will be forced to terminate their pregnancies.
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Date Jan. 14 2021 16:19:07
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