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RE: What's up with this newfangled culture of "interpreting" others intrepretations?
RE: What's up with this newfangled c... (in reply to mark indigo)
Ok, here I attempt a series of strawmen, ermmm a summary:
Me: "what's up with verbatim copies of Paco de Lucia pieces on Youtube"
Internet: "clearly you need to attempt a verbatim copy of a Paco de Lucia piece in order to understand it"
Me: "ok, but what if I just get the general gist of it and elaborate it my own way?"
Internet: "no good. Must be verbatim."
Me: "Can I use my smallest finger?"
Internet: "No. also, your thumb is too short."
(ok, the last part didn't occur, i'll admit)
Internet: "Look, if you want to understand Paco de Lucias music, just learn how to play it, the experience will teach you"
Me: "Ok, sounds true! but I wasn't actually asking for anyone to explain the mysteries of Paco de Lucias music, but I certainly appreciate learning about it, although I'm not going to learn his pieces for fear of infecting what is otherwise a clean stupid mind full of my own ideas, due to the fact that I don't want to accidentally spit out PDL falsetas in MY bulerias, and me being incapable of internalizing it beyond a first pass without actually emitting it from time to time, because, unlike certain assertions, I DO consider Flamenco a partially improvisatory music, even at odds with PDL's own statements on the fact, that I think come from "own-house-shame" because jazz has as much structural ties as flamenco and everything besides key harmonic structures and the essential notes of a melody is simply baroque ornamentation, elaboration on a theme, and flamencos do it all the time, even if the individual phrases being assembled are pre-made, and herein lies the danger of verbatim learning for ME, in particular, as I won't be able to resist the pull"
Internet: "Sounds like a personal problem. Better just stick to acting like a humble worm and practice Pacos licks"
Me: "So, if you worship this guy precisely because of the new interesting approaches he took that still managed to capture essences of flamenco harmony and traditions, yet it's not ok to be original because what if my original stuff isn't as good as Pacos, or maybe not even as good as his throwaway pile? "
Internet: "Security!"
Me: "Wait a minute, who runs this scene?"
Internet: "This theory disproves your ability to do things, therefore you aren't actually doing them. I'm also a perfectionist and therefore any attempts you make at creativity will be shot down"
Me: "I sense that this is more about primate posturing and TBH guitar-players are the people most interested in guitar-solo material, none of these odd attitudes I've seen expressed here are reflected in the actual Flamenco musical events I've been to, and I live right next door and pre-covid hopped over for a weekend, it's just a few hours drive...it's really more about people, song, dance, feeling. Sure there's essential structural stuff you need to know if you want to play it. I can hear and see just fine, thank you."
Mark Indigo: What, no Ruben Diaz videos? (I sweat just watching him sweat.) I agree that Paco de Lucia was an amazing meteoric player and explorer. Having original pieces that vary from a faithful rendition of a given palo and are actually fusions = something to cover. I'm saying that the English Speaking World takes it to another level. It's part and parcel to a set of attitudes I've noticed, as in places where folks there know more technical details about a particular Japanese cooking technique or Vietnamese herb cultivars etc than the folks in the place of origin! The difference is that it's disconnected from it's context, all intellectual. In Italy, fresh tomatoes are dirt cheap or come from a family member, so you aren't being extravagant if you cook with them in lieu of sauce. In Iberia, many meat recipes call for litres and litres of wine, and this is not extravagant in a place where every farmer has a few barrels fermenting under his house. Flamenco music is not ABOUT light-speed picados, which can certainly be present where called-for and well-done, but ultimately the rhythm and compas dominates and plows ahead. Tomatito or even Paco de Lucia can certainly play well, but if he's accompanying he's not going to noodle-doodle around. But i can see where both new guitar students and old appreciators of Paco de Lucia can agree upon his greatness, as a player and as a composer and as an interpreter.
I'm not criticizing Paco de Lucia, of course. I'm not criticizing Samuelito, or Grisha (who is a musical sponge and librarian and interpreter that is so connected to his genius that he just ends up amazingly good, and I'll pretty much put him on a pedestal simply from watching him elegantly change tunings!? in the middle of show, that string stretchy thing, and 1-2-3 he's back in action and in-tune!!)
I'm definitely critical of the psychology and attitudes I'm seeing on display here, and I'll admit to partially trying to draw these out to illustrate this back to anyone who cares to see it, FWIW. I'm pretty sure that even on the "hot rod guitar player path" (which I am not on, I'm more on the "old hound dog plays with feeling" path) most athletic coaches and trainers of any worth these days, most teachers and child development specialists, etc will give short shrift to self-limiting ideologies. People whose job is to bring out the excellence in others will find more success in removing all the mental baggage and directly apprehending the core kernel of the issue.
I'm learning about metalurgy, and the carbon-iron phase diagram is sufficient basis to begin to play with and learn about the characteristics, and you will, of course, find lifetimes to discover and many clever clever blacksmiths, but it all starts with that understanding of the various crystal structures iron can form with carbon (and other things) and the role that temperature and time play in that. Cold quenching to create martensite was only discovered about 2k years ago, or so. Obviously the principles guide, but the blacksmith also intuitively knows from years of experience the different colors, temperatures, his forge, the places in the forge to find a reducing heat vs oxidizing heat, etc.
Programming computers: once you know what Fetch Decode Execute means, what memory addresses are, you can basically understand that programming computers involves manipulating memory addresses (registers are a kind of memory too, lol). You can run with this info. If you play around with microcontrollers or low-level code at all (old DOS or Unix C programmers, whatever) you can understand principles that no shiny "new" techno-babble can baffle or boggle. You can apply these principles like a map. If you have a map you don't need to drive around aimlessly, even if it looks like you are just going right,left,right,left, if you know the map in your head you can go where you wish to and always know where you are in relation to it, given some stars/moon/coastline, orientation (compass bearing...)
RE: What's up with this newfangled c... (in reply to RobF)
@RobF
quote:
quote:
I'm also asking if one seriously means to disqualify non-quitarists from musical composition, singing or playing flamenco, feeling flamenco, being flamenco, and lots of philosphical questions.
In all seriousness, that’s a very good question/point.
What about Diego Amador?
(his recent work is much more fusion, IMO, of course, but he can do very authentic flamenco too, and plays a zillion instruments well)
I didn't manage to find the specific thread you referenced via this "muse" search, but I'll keep looking
Posts: 14797
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: What's up with this newfangled c... (in reply to aaron peacock)
quote:
I'm definitely critical of the psychology and attitudes I'm seeing on display here, and I'll admit to partially trying to draw these out to illustrate this back to anyone who cares to see it, FWIW.
Yes, you have revealed so much here. You are a mirror to all our souls. Not only a musical genius but a genius of psychology, anthropology, metallurgy, foreign language mastery, computer programming, spiritual depth etc etc...where does it end? Is there anything you aren’t a complete master of yet, we are really all impressed! Your carefully constructed baited questions were a brilliant way to expose the truth on foro, amazing!!!
Anyway, Diego Amador, good example...how did he make that piano sound so “flamenco”? Must be just by feel and his gitano blood I guess? So great you took notice. There is no way he would have, I don’t know, copied some flamenco guitar falsetas and rasgueados on that thing is there? No of course not, a total original right there. That’s how you do it! Just make up your own stuff...god forbid a bit of a Paco falseta accidentally slips out of your amazing toque. That would just ruin everything.
Still wondering what Tumbona you think someone played? At this point I am ready to bet money there is no such performance in existence...but it’s ok because “it doesn’t matter anyway”.
Posts: 14797
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: What's up with this newfangled c... (in reply to Guest)
quote:
ORIGINAL: rasqeo77
I’m not sure I understand all of your points but I admire your attempt to deflate some of the egos on here. Guitarists are a special breed.
You have to read it all over and over and finally your brain might go the distance required to understand the profundity. And of course the break down of all the delicate egos was the real icing on the genius cake here!
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
RE: What's up with this newfangled c... (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
Yes, you have revealed so much here. You are a mirror to all our souls. Not only a musical genius but a genius of psychology, anthropology, metallurgy, foreign language mastery, computer programming, spiritual depth etc etc...where does it end? Is there anything you aren’t a complete master of yet, we are really all impressed! Your carefully constructed baited questions were a brilliant way to expose the truth on foro, amazing!!!
It is generally agreed that Thomas Young (13 June 1773 – 10 May 1829), a British polymath, was the last man to know everything there was to know at the time. It appears, however, that Young has been superceded by our 21st century version right here on the Foro. And he obviously has impressed at least one member who wrote, "I admire your attempt to deflate some of the egos on here." I would question who has the inflated ego.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
RE: What's up with this newfangled c... (in reply to aaron peacock)
quote:
I'd say "grading nets of increasing refinement"
Fluency is a fickle term, with no consensus on a definition rooted in quantifiable metrics. Generally speaking though, it is not equated with accuracy. There are different components to language acquisition, and this concept of increasing refinement does not necessarily apply to all of them.
One such component is pronunciation, where (for reasons that are still hotly debated) adult learners notoriously do worse than children. Here this idea of increasing refinement breaks down. In music, you've most likely heard the trope "practice doesn't make perfect; practice makes permanent" or something to that effect. Same thing with pronunciation. You want a learner to jump straight to the end goal here, and not go through phases of increased refinement, otherwise he'll only cement the pronunciation mistakes he is making. It is then just a matter of rote repetition with constant monitoring of your pronunciation vs. the target.
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develop a passion and interest through genuine connection
quote:
Removing emotional baggage
Sure. Anything from affective filters to motivation, it is widely understood that a learner's psychological state has a significant impact on his learning.
That's why, when speaking of this approach inspired by the monitor model, I said: "personally I can't imagine delaying output for a year or more when learning a language. I think I would get bored and give up." If you want to learn exactly how a child would, then not speaking for a long time, at least several months, is indeed part of it. But personally I think doing that would lead me to failure, as I just wouldn't be able to keep up the motivation through that period.
I'm also skeptical of this approach for the simple reason that it assumes that recreating the process by which a child learns is necessarily a benefit for an adult, without recognizing that the conditions in which we learn are very different (cognitive abilities, interference of native language, etc.). I'm not a child anymore. We age. So goes it. I want a learning method that is best adapted to my own conditions as an adult. In areas where there can be alignment with how a child would learn, that's fine. In areas where there is no such alignment, and trying to do it like a child would in fact be counterproductive, then I'm not going to make things more difficult for myself just because my learning method isn't the same as a child's.
quote:
I saw some anti-childlike sentiments expressed by you
You see a lot of things. Suffice to say that so far not a single of these points has struck me as true. Whether you decide that this is because I'm being closed-minded and just refusing to recognise it or that it is because you are making mistaken assumptions, that's up to you.
Usually when people use terms like "childlike" as an aspiration, they are referring to a very narrow subset of qualities, a very narrow part of what it means to be a child. It would significantly clarify the conversation if they referred directly to what they mean, instead of using this analogy to children.
So it depends on what you mean by "anti-childlike". If it means that I value knowledge over ignorance, then yes that is true. But I've never found knowledge to hamper direct experience. Some people choose to see the two as negatively correlated (and that's often what they're talking about when they speak of being childlike). That's their choice. I personally see no such correlation. So if "anti-childlike" means that I don't value direct experience, then that is not true.
quote:
In any case, lot's of "soft-science" subjectivity peddled by the kilogram as Authoritative Cudgels to Support Erroneous Ideas Contrary To God and Nature abound in this world, don't you agree?
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
RE: What's up with this newfangled c... (in reply to Piwin)
quote:
Fluency is a fickle term, with no consensus on a definition rooted in quantifiable metrics. Generally speaking though, it is not equated with accuracy. There are different components to language acquisition, and this concept of increasing refinement does not necessarily apply to all of them.
I learned German many years ago while stationed in Germany with the U.S. Air Force. In addition to acquiring the language by mixing with Germans, a group of us took lessons from a German professor affiliated with the University of Hamburg, Herr Professor Kohler.
I still remember the very first lesson we had with Professor Kohler. He began by saying that the best way to gain fluency in the language was to have a German girlfriend. He paused a few seconds, and then added, "That is called horizontal inspiration."
He, of course, was correct.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
RE: What's up with this newfangled c... (in reply to Piwin)
I am often amused, and sometimes irritated, when I hear someone say Spanish is an easy language to learn. Spanish, spoken correctly, uses the subjunctive mood probably 60 percent of the time, whereas in English we rarely use the subjunctive. I have heard many people speaking Spanish who have not learned to speak using the subjunctive well, if at all. They speak and understand Spanish, and they are understood by others, but a refined speaker of Spanish notes immediately that they are not speaking correct Spanish. I would say that Spanish is an easy language to learn to speak poorly. But like any other endeavor, it takes work to nail the language down correctly.
The same goes for Malay and Indonesian, which are 80 percent the same, but that 20 percent difference can get one in trouble if one is unaware of the differences. Also, they use prefixes and suffixes that can mean anything from greater emphasis to a different meaning. And even when the root word without the prefix or suffix can be understood, proper use means all the difference to the refined (particularly Javanese) ear. In fact, Malay and Indonesian have a phrase, "berbudi bahasa" ("bahasa" means "language"), that describes someone who is refined, graceful, and well-mannered. And it is largely defined by the correct use of language.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
Posts: 14797
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: What's up with this newfangled c... (in reply to Piwin)
quote:
One such component is pronunciation, where (for reasons that are still hotly debated) adult learners notoriously do worse than children.
Pretty sure it’s related to how the glial material grows as child...the answer to chess prodigy and fast picado as well. At 56:00 here on (topic starts around 43:00 regarding communication speed of glial vs neurons in the brain):
RE: What's up with this newfangled c... (in reply to Ricardo)
@BarkellWH Nothing quite as effective as pillow talk with Frieda!
@Paul Magnussen I know I don't! I doubt I would be able to sustain my motivation for that long without speaking.
@Ricardo Interesting talk. It may be related, but I don't think the research is yet at a point to determine that for sure as far as second language acquisition goes.
The key point here is that it is a second language. Meaning that we've already learned a first language as a child (cases of individuals acquiring their first language later on in life are few and far between). So I suppose if we wanted to make a comparison with music, one version of the question would be closer to: can a person who learned classical music at a high level since he was born start learning flamenco in adulthood and become as "fluent" in flamenco as someone who learned flamenco at a high level since he was born? Something like that (depending on what the equivalent to languages are in music. Genres? Instruments?). It's obviously just a speculative comparison, but the point is that it's not the same situation as someone who has not learned music at all in childhood, and is only starting to learn music once he's reached adulthood. (and with chess, maybe the question would be about how good a person who learned chess as a child could get at go, shogi, or some other forms of strategy games, if he learns those as an adult).
I'm not well-versed at all in the brain stuff, but I'd imagine you would then have to look at very specific circuitry. There may be overlap of some of the circuitry used for each genre of music, and there may be other areas where the circuitry is different (for instance, maybe if the genre of music you learned as a child doesn't put any focus on improvisation, maybe there's circuitry related to that, and its maturation would then make it difficult for you to learn an improvisation-heavy genre once you're an adult. Dunno.)
Same for language. I'd imagine you'd have to look at very specific circuitry. For instance there's no difference between a native speaker and a second language learner in terms of their ability to learn new vocabulary. And that ability seems to stay fairly constant throughout adulthood (with just a drop off in old age). So if we're looking for an explanation in the brain's circuitry, then I guess it would be a case where the circuitry for the first language is the same as the one used for the second language. Dunno. For syntax/grammar, there seems to be a drop off around 17-18. At this point however, I don't think we know whether that has to do with changes in the brain, or whether it has to do with the substantial social and environmental changes that tend to occur around that age (less opportunities for learning once you have a job, etc.). It could be both. It's also been hypothesized that the reason our societies have these social and environmental changes at that age is because we somehow collectively know through experience that this is more or less when the learning curve drops off. Sort of like: well you won't be learning much from here on out anyway, so might as well put you to work now. Dunno how that fits though with history and also with the fact that more and more of us now continue our education well into our 20s in university.
For phonology, IIRC proponents of the critical period theory (can't forget the "period" in there, otherwise people start ranting about neo-Marxists and censorship or whatever ) usually place a drop off in ability at around 6 years of age. That said, for second language phonology this shouldn't be seen as some kind of hard limit after which it becomes impossible to reach the equivalent of native phonology. There are enough studies around where native speakers were asked to rate the accent of participants and where it was found that some adult learners who started learning the language only when they were adults rated just as well as native speakers. That doesn't dismiss the idea of there being some sort of critical period. It just means that this is a case where it's possible to "make up" for the changes in cognitive abilities through other means. But it's an extremely high bar to pass. Personally, I only know of 1 or 2 adult learners whose French is to me indistinguishable from a native. I'm sure there are more out there, but they're certainly not the majority. I don't know the reasons why, but this is an area where I do find that the majority of adult learners fare rather poorly (not just compared to children. just poorly in terms of what should be theoretically possible). Maybe it's just not a point of focus for them. Maybe it's an issue of lack of exposure. Dunno. Or maybe they're just being smart and stop trying to improve once they reach that asymptotic part of the learning curve. I mean... a slight foreign accent is sexy and singles you out as different and interesting. A perfect accent and congratulations: you're now just another bloke indistinguishable from everyone else at the bar!
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Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
RE: What's up with this newfangled c... (in reply to Piwin)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Piwin
I doubt I would be able to sustain my motivation for that long without speaking.
I think I mentioned this before. One of my good friends worked where I did. He, another friend and I were more or less the court of last resort for mathematical and computer-related engineering problems at Austin's first high tech company. We three shared mathematical training by R. L. Moore, the leading teacher worldwide of research mathematician of the early-to-mid 20th century. We studied under H.S. Wall as well. Wall was a leading research mathematician who had played a significant role in applied mathematics in the aircraft industry during WW II. My friends went on to get their PhD's, I concentrated on a career in industry. They eventually returned to industry as well.
This particular friend seemed never to speak until he was four years old. He was assumed to be mentally disabled. His grandmother lived with him and his parents. He told me could get whatever he wanted from her by gestures and a few grunts. One day he was left indoors while the adults enjoyed a meal out of doors. His mother re-entered the house quietly. She accidentally surprised my friend in front of the radio. He was repeating fluently and with complete accuracy every word of a news broadcast.
RE: What's up with this newfangled c... (in reply to aaron peacock)
well, This is kinda funny, as what I'm hearing from some folks is patent nonsense and goes against the direct experience of music, so it's a LIE, goodbye :D
RE: What's up with this newfangled c... (in reply to aaron peacock)
By the way, Ad-Hominem attacks and sardonic cynicism do not constitute valid points of argument. I prefer you flamenco experts nice and smart instead of directly contradicting reality and then blaming it on me.
I see plenty of youtube comments from many people that are not me and that I've never met, frequently writing in Spanish, and basically saying the same things I am saying "enough with the bedroom guitar wonkery and give us compas" or "give us your original material" so I suspect that I'm not on a total red-herring here...
RE: What's up with this newfangled c... (in reply to aaron peacock)
I fail to see how anything she said contradicts anything people were saying here.
I am however getting rather tired of being insulted by you and rasqeo (the irony that you think you are the one on the receiving end of personal attacks here...), and have no wish to bear with this negativity into 2021, so I'll be using that useful "block" button.
RE: What's up with this newfangled c... (in reply to mark indigo)
Rafael is a great player, buena persona y humilde. When David Palomar wanted to enter the concurso de cante de Córdoba, he wanted Rafa as accompanist, but was afraid to ask because he is one of the most sought after tocaores in Andalucía. When David plucked up courage to ask, Rafa said "Of course, great!"
He comes a lot to Cádiz and although he usually played a Reyes, he was always on the lookout for a good Gerundino. Finally he found one, with pegs, and now plays nothing else. We had a plan to compare his guitar with mine but Covid put and end to all plans, and all live music
RE: What's up with this newfangled c... (in reply to Piwin)
quote:
I fail to see how anything she said contradicts anything people were saying here.
I am however getting rather tired of being insulted by you and rasqeo (the irony that you think you are the one on the receiving end of personal attacks here...), and have no wish to bear with this negativity into 2021, so I'll be using that useful "block" button.
Carry on.
Please feel free to block me, sir. What do you feel insulted by? You specifically advocated an anti-intuitive approach to learning music. You specifically advocated for learning music via imitation, theory, and standing in the shoes of others. I see such pedagogical approaches as harmful to students. I would suggest that such ideas be kept far from any children or anyone with any actual passion for music.
What ideas she suggested in this video were directly countered verbally by you in your linguistics diatribe. They run directly counter to the "impossible complexity you need a guide for" narrative outlined by an entire camp of folks you are a verbal exponent of here in this very thread! Moving the goalposts? I think you just like to whine. What kind of horrible musical settings are you playing in that people rip the guitar from your hands when you don't play PDL falsetas? I think it's nuts, man!
Ad-hominem attacks do not constitute personal insults, so no, I'm not feeling insulted in this sense, but the ideas I propose have been specifically denigrated by Ricardo, for example, as coming from a phony polymath (me) and therefore of questionable value. The idea is that I am presenting myself as superior to others, but this is a lie, as I say to you that ANY person can be a genius and let the art/medium teach them! That doesn't preclude useful learning from people who have spent a lot of time in the art/medium, but it does mean that you run away screaming from people that try to sell you Dianetics! I think I specifically mentioned that I am not as good of a guitar player as XYZ, and what you need to understand is that I am not advocating ME AS GREAT, I am advocating a protestant approach: a personal relationship with music/God that requires no intermediary. If you can't imagine that, you are LOST! find yourself.
I acknowledge that I was in error in calling this "worship of dead virtuosos" a new-fangled thing, as even in Paganini's time it was clearly a thing.
Here is a list of statements roughly obtained from this thread that I consider total harmful nonsense that any music student should run away from: 1) XYZ music is not improvisational (do not improvise or try to riff in this style.) nonsense: you can improvise Baroque music, Classical music, countless classical musicians can also roughly imitate the stylistics of a given period. Is it Mozart level? Actually, some of it is. You don't digest thousands of lines of staves without some comprehension. The mere combinatorial possibilities of falsetas = improvisational framework. Yes, I understand that PDL and others have specifically stated in interviews that Flamenco is not improv, but that's a lie. He's expressing admiration for Jazz improv and wishing it were a cultural thing in Flamenco. The thing is, Jazz has plenty of structure also, and you see plenty of rigidity inside of improv. Encourage improv.
2) you cannot hope to create good quality riffs and thus should imitate one who already passed our test. (already dead, already great, already celebrated, not when he first challenges the icons or first crosses "the line". we wait until it's OK because we rely upon experts (others) opinions)
3) music is something you need a priest for
A music teacher has exactly ONE job! To bring a student into a musical world, where the language is music. ANY insertion of the music teacher between the student and the music is an egotistical crime against music and a sin!
The world of sound is intuitively comprehensible and one who lives inside it finds it more natural than verbal language. It's a language, it's a world, and every single sentient being can grok meaning from sound and the expressive use of it.
You cannot tell someone who is swimming in the water "oh but you cannot swim, you need lessons"
A REAL music teacher says "hey, nice doggy paddle, I see that you really float well and enjoy the water, can I show you this cool flutter kick you might find useful?"
RE: What's up with this newfangled c... (in reply to kitarist)
quote:
quote:
have no wish to bear with this negativity into 2021, so I'll be using that useful "block" button
Me too; with the added benefit: not seeing that designed-to-be-maximally-annnoying "profile pic".
_____________________________
If that's how the majority feel here then I shall leave.
"negativitity" right, sunshine :D
it's like the "anti-christ" concept... I see some potential candidates for the "anti-music" here on this thread.
the place music goes to die LOL
seriously, what an exercise in group cowardice. I want out too. I shan't post here again.
Escribano, I apologize if I sullied your forum, please delete my account as I am making the children cry with heretical ideas that are precisely true, but nevermind...
Posts: 14797
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: What's up with this newfangled c... (in reply to aaron peacock)
quote:
I acknowledge that I was in error in calling this "worship of dead virtuosos" a new-fangled thing, as even in Paganini's time it was clearly a thing.
That is a good start. Hopefully you will one day see why the rest of your ideas are not applicable to flamenco as well. One of your recent rants expresses concepts that work for certain music styles, but not every genre of music. Mclaughlin might be one of the most versatile guitarists in history getting mixed up in jazz, rock, blues, raga and even flamenco. When asked about say Indian music he stated “if you want to commune with these artists you have to learn the rules and regulations of THEIR music first”. So basically show the respect for those that have mastered the genre before you push in your “amazing” new ideas. Flamenco, compared to some other genres, is particularly closed to outsiders having been developed by marginalized and proud people. To do as you are trying to champion is to say “screw all those people, ANYBODY can do this thing well on their own!”, and it is frankly insulting to both the creators of the genre and the outside individuals that have humbled themselves enough to go about learning it the correct way.
1. You sound like you mean rock music 2. You sound like you are talking about rock riffing. 3. You sound like you are talking about bedroom rock guitar learning.
None of your points apply to flamenco in the way you described. For example 2. No you should not be creating your own “riffs” until you have done SOME basic “imitation” of the tradition. Or 3. You can learn falsetas alone but accompanying involves other humans. If you choose never to accompany then you will be a flamenco artist in your own mind and no where else.
RE: What's up with this newfangled c... (in reply to aaron peacock)
quote:
Please feel free to block me, sir.
Thank you. I will. I decided to wait for an answer out of courtesy, but after this I will. You can certainly opt for the dramatic exit if that's what you want, but you shouldn't interpret me blocking you as me saying you should leave. That's the whole point of having a block button in the first place, so that when people don't get along but are all following the rules of the forum, they can just ignore each other, at least temporarily. There's plenty of room for everyone.
quote:
in your linguistics diatribe
Not sure how you get a "diatribe" from what I wrote, which was just a description of a novel approach to language learning I had seen, and some of the pros and cons it raised from my PoV. Maybe it was too off-topic. Apologies if that's the case, but since language is my bread and butter it's just an occupational hazard that I'll sometimes do that.
But anyway, we are apparently talking past each other, since every description you've given of what I've said just doesn't hit the mark, not even remotely.
quote:
I am advocating a protestant approach: a personal relationship with music/God that requires no intermediary. If you can't imagine that, you are LOST! find yourself.
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Dunno how that fits though with history and also with the fact that more and more of us now continue our education well into our 20s in university. 
) usually place a drop off in ability at around 6 years of age. That said, for second language phonology this shouldn't be seen as some kind of hard limit after which it becomes impossible to reach the equivalent of native phonology. There are enough studies around where native speakers were asked to rate the accent of participants and where it was found that some adult learners who started learning the language only when they were adults rated just as well as native speakers. That doesn't dismiss the idea of there being some sort of critical period. It just means that this is a case where it's possible to "make up" for the changes in cognitive abilities through other means. But it's an extremely high bar to pass. Personally, I only know of 1 or 2 adult learners whose French is to me indistinguishable from a native. I'm sure there are more out there, but they're certainly not the majority. I don't know the reasons why, but this is an area where I do find that the majority of adult learners fare rather poorly (not just compared to children. just poorly in terms of what should be theoretically possible). Maybe it's just not a point of focus for them. Maybe it's an issue of lack of exposure. Dunno. Or maybe they're just being smart and stop trying to improve once they reach that asymptotic part of the learning curve. I mean... a slight foreign accent is sexy and singles you out as different and interesting. A perfect accent and congratulations: you're now just another bloke indistinguishable from everyone else at the bar! 
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