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RE: What's up with this newfangled culture of "interpreting" others intrepretations?
Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: What's up with this newfangled c... (in reply to aaron peacock)
quote:
dig?
Yes. My roots are rock metal guitar, an off shoot of commercial popular music. The consensus was to not copy anybody, do your own thing write your own music...sure do covers but be original when you do that, never clone or copy, don’t play fast scales, play with “feeling” instead etc.
So upon encountering flamenco world I discovered the polar opposite approach, where a falseta quote is not only a commendable activity, it is PRECISELY what the discipline calls for. You have to play specific things at specific times, and no fear of violating copyright laws, it is THE WAY YOU LEARN and show others exactly where your level is at. When creating new music, PDL, the great “creator”, admitted to trashing huge percentages of original material that the aficionado inside him would not accept as legitimate.
Bridging the two worlds of music with different concepts of how creativity will be approached, I felt the Vai quote was helpful to elucidate this reality. Mostly because it was unusual to hear this unique and opposite take on the subject from a Rocker. Unfortunately what you are NOT yet grasping is that the ANSWERS to all your questions are there waiting for you as the results of the WORK YOU ARE NOT YET WILLING TO PUT IN. I can only hope that your attitude will change at some point and you can get past your personally created obstacles and get on with the discovery that awaits you.
RE: What's up with this newfangled c... (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
The consensus was to not copy anybody, do your own thing write your own music...sure do covers but be original when you do that, never clone or copy
Copying and doing covers are allowed in the early stages. So learning from the maestros and playing along with them is inevitable for further development as a musician. There's no shortcut. But sooner or later everyone who wants to make music should start doing their own stuff. For every guitarist I believe guitar should be used as a songwriting tool. Been there, done that.
RE: What's up with this newfangled c... (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
Unfortunately what you are NOT yet grasping is that the ANSWERS to all your questions are there waiting for you as the results of the WORK YOU ARE NOT YET WILLING TO PUT IN.
I don't understand this. Will answers to my questions be self-evident after learning lots of falsetas?
I think I grok the harmonic structures of anything I hear ever, as a child or singer does. Giant Steps, although a complex falseta to copy at first audition (had to play it back a couple of times to accept how many chromatic movements occurred and the implied modulations) is nonetheless something a child could sing. BUT I ASK: will the actual practice of physically learning La Tumbona, for example, make some connection in my mind that clarifies things? What was your experience in learning this entire piece, Ricardo? Did you grow up learning classical pieces from sheet music in such a notable musical family as you did? Are you referencing flamenco in this regard? I guess you do transcriptions of musical pieces from ear to paper as well, correct? What is this process for you?
I practice. Several hours a day. (drums, guitar, bass, but i'm the worlds worst trumpet player and never managed to get more than 20 minutes of lip a day before it stops working.) I actually do quickly copy someones falsetas frequently (pause a song in the middle of listening, copy it while the notes are fresh in my minds ear) but then promptly drop them again or try mutating them, probably a shame response, and i feel dishonest about those synthetic falsetas.
If I consider the intervals and the melody its nothing usually surprising, but the context can be! (relative major/minor, counter-tonic, etc) but then I'll not categorize this as learning a falseta, but rather the principle behind it and how it works. Studying others music is worthwhile, no doubt. (This "refusal to learn falsetas" is probably also a response to not needing a musical lexicon of these as a flamenco would?)
Re: Mark Indigo and Platonic forms. Just that if you take 20 soleares you can see an ideal solea behind it that these soleares are derived versions of. Ones brain forms this generic container abstract concept after hearing 20 soleares or so, or in Platos case, he says it exists on a metaphysical plane. There is a circle somewhere in heaven and all circles on earth are derived copies of it. Plato was evidently a big object-oriented-programming guru, probably C++
Am I correct to relate this entire issue largely to solo guitar? (Meaning, learning a palo vs learning/collecting falsetas) (I don't recall much falseta or picado or anything beyond arpeggiation of the shapes involved in accompaniment for cante or dance at juergas etc, but it's mostly a chaotic environment and people aren't just going to be quiet to hear a guitarist, better luck drumming on the guitar top)
I appreciate the ideas behind 25+ years of guitar playing in this context. I really do, even if I am challenging some ideas.
PS for the world: I owe a pre-emptive explanation of the phrase I used earlier and am surprised no one scoffed at: "I'm a musical genius" and anyone can be also. The etymology of the word genius brings us back to it's original meaning of a personal inner connection one has with the/ones muse. This being something more truthful than anything. I'd be curious about PDL's musical dumping pile, as while it might not be flamenco-worthy, it might be interesting music.
fakemenco and playing over/through changes and reducing it all to scalar patterns over a grossly simplified andalusian cadence? I think that one can immediately smell a lack of feeling a vibe. I feel that way about Al Di Meola, even though that opening riff on Mediterranean Sundance is all him, he's often just plowing through things in a sort of dismissive expert manner, not to mention the sound of the palleta.
Surely, the geometry of movement is already built in. I've always seen certain chromaticism inside of a scale as indicative of the movement, for example in the flamenco context between the I and II like the breathing of animal. One is not plopped over one chord for very long and even that chord hints at where it will go in a second with hanging tensions like our flat9 etc.
Now, as to the difficulties in accompaniment, to me it's rather obvious that this is due to an intellectual "counting" approach and not "feeing the music and listening to the song" because verbal phrases indicate the rhythm and you just have to vamp until it's time to flip over, who cares if it's 7.25 (random number you were on) Am I nuts to suggest that there are tradeoffs in canonizing what WAS a largely folk "embellish a palo apropos the music being sung/danced/played" tradition into a classical one, and IS THIS NOT largely a phenomena largely occurring OUTSIDE the inner circles? (dangerous topic, i know, asbestos suit vesting now, 3,2,1...)
RE: What's up with this newfangled c... (in reply to Ricardo)
Interesting to mention the concept of Ornamentation in Baroque music, and the fact that it's not written but implied. (we *have* written examples exhorting HOW a musician can ornament, for those deprived of musical sensibilities.)
it reminds me
but then the falseta in question is a melody that anyone can sing/repeat/decorate. it's memorable, it's structurally simple, it indicates the harmonic movement it's contextualized in. like a good simple pop melody, it's the distillation of lots of perspiration to appear like no big deal, and the essential melody is simple and must be to be catchy.
So, I can understand that anything one hears riffing on this sort of theme here that its a reference to Moraitos across generations or so?
now, back to the original provocative/perhaps foolish question: is verbatim covers really helping a performer understand the nucleus of the music?
perhaps it's also a question of La Tumbona being a rather exquisite piece that owes actually only a core "refrain" harmonic system to a buleria? Is this actually something different in which exploring his system reveals things?
because a raw copy/cover of a Chico Moraito bulerias will just involve you sweating a lot rasgueando up a storm with lots of fury and feeling but not many nuggets to copy.
What of the differences IN flamenco families and communities IN Al Andalus vs the iconified version appreciated as a high art from Japan to USA etc? Does this promote a certain kind of "worship of accidental form" vs drinking the water you swim in? Something may just be an accidental artifact, vs a genuine component of choice. I am quite cautious here not to get people speaking about "real/authentic" and promoting silly nationalistic or exclusionary ideas. Music is patrimonio mundial to me, period. this brings up ANOTHER question!
What is the actual decision making structure of this social animal and what role does the international fanbase play in deciding future directions? what about decisions on what is or is not orthodoxy? (I speak of minutae like fingering choices as "flamenco/not". )
Paco Penha (sorry, no special characters here I heard? we do nh to make n with tilde over it sound) stands out to me as right smack in the center of flamenco, trying his best to give platonic palos a body. Technically rather proficient too, eh?
I too have my own prejudices and ideas about what is/isn't part of that flavour-pool, on an ad-hoc basis, naturally :D When I hear too much of what I feel are softening elements (from Jazz, which I also have plenty of prejudices over, being such a broad term including musics I love and hate under such an umbrella-term) and not enough hijaz or berberisms (Amazigh culture is distinct from their arabic overlords, intermixed as it later becomes) I also get a bit turned-off.
I find many "modern" compositions are not "modern" in the edgy sense for me, much as "jazz" brings up more noodly-doodly in it's fringes as of late and not enough McCoy Tyner, lol...it's all about a mood/feeling. Bossanova has it's place (the bedroom) but it's harmonic structure is not flamenco, lol
What about these varied "sour" intros PDL would add to his buleria each performance? To me the most interesting part of any buleria is the approach to the standard, there's a short window of time in the beginning where it's unclear where we will end up before our cadence marches it's way down the phrygian ladder. It's like a tiger sneaking up on it's prey, devastating and clever feeling :D
RE: What's up with this newfangled c... (in reply to Ricardo)
1) which is this "cante accompaniment thread" you speak of?
2) must I demonstrate technical prowess to someones (whose?) satisfaction as a guitarist to discuss music here? Why would my guitar playing skills or lack thereof influence the validity of concepts I speak of? I understand what I hear in flamenco. I'm not confused by anything I've been musically communicated from any of the maestros, so far. Some pieces are very deep and bear new fruit each listen, surely.
3) Why treat singers and dancers as foreign aliens instead collaborators? While it may be very intimidating (as a novice particularly!) to accompany a famous singer or dancer in a public performance, is it really about complex intellectual concepts or about emotional sensitivity? Can obtuse instincts be overcome by training or is sensitivity and receptivity to others on a telepathic level the real thing here?
4) Is an intellectual counting based approach actually a useful tool for complex rhythms that are easily "explicable" via lyrical meaning or phrasing or merely by feeling where the accents go by hearing people play inside this framework for hours at a time (I mentioned Amazigh culture above, and Berber rhythms are a great example, children do just fine with them, despite the complexity involved.) As I like to say: even if Hungarian is considered a very "difficult" language coming from an indo-european background, hungarian children learn it in the same 3 years as other children learn their languages... We must always ask ourselves of our tools are contextually appropriate. As mentioned above by others, jazz harmony and concepts are not sufficiently useful tools to explain the flamenco system. They are rather a shorthand of modifications/extensions/tensions from functional music or, post Lydian Chromatic Concept, purely modal systems.
Sorry for the dumping of multiple issues in 3 giant consecutive posts. I ruminate like a cow.
Posts: 1871
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco
RE: What's up with this newfangled c... (in reply to aaron peacock)
Yes, after you learn dozens of falsetas in the main forms, after you learn dozens and dozens of ways to express the Compás of those forms, after you spend a number of years playing for dancers, and finally, if you still have gas in your tank, you learn dozens of cante melodies and the chords that have traditionally been used to accompany them, and you apply that knowledge by playing for a lot of singers and dancers, all your questions will be answered. And if you don’t they won’t. It’s simple. The path to becoming a flamenco guitarist is well worn. It just happens to be rather difficult and time consuming.
quote:
ORIGINAL: aaron peacock
quote:
Unfortunately what you are NOT yet grasping is that the ANSWERS to all your questions are there waiting for you as the results of the WORK YOU ARE NOT YET WILLING TO PUT IN.
I don't understand this. Will answers to my questions be self-evident after learning lots of falsetas?
Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: What's up with this newfangled c... (in reply to aaron peacock)
quote:
used earlier and am surprised no one scoffed at: "I'm a musical genius"
At the moment you get over yourself you might start learning. Anyway, you keep asking or talking about La Tumbona, but never presented the performance that got under your skin so badly. The only thing that lingers in my mind constantly as you write is whether or not the guy copied the out of compas falseta as it was recorded, or did he choose to fix it as PDL himself did live?
RE: What's up with this newfangled c... (in reply to aaron peacock)
quote:
Re: Mark Indigo and Platonic forms. Just that if you take 20 soleares you can see an ideal solea behind it that these soleares are derived versions of. Ones brain forms this generic container abstract concept after hearing 20 soleares or so, or in Platos case, he says it exists on a metaphysical plane. There is a circle somewhere in heaven and all circles on earth are derived copies of it. Plato was evidently a big object-oriented-programming guru, probably C++
I know Plato's idea of the cave, but I've never heard of anyone trying to relate that to flamenco forms before, and don't really see the relevance or point of it....
quote:
Sorry for the dumping of multiple issues in 3 giant consecutive posts. I ruminate like a cow.
RE: What's up with this newfangled c... (in reply to Guest)
quote:
Another armchair “expert”. How do you explain those excellent flamenco guitarists who haven’t followed that path?
Who appointed you to decide if others are experts?
What qualifies you to judge others' expertise or otherwise?
If you are sufficiently knowledgeable to decide and judge, why not share your wisdom?
You could try contributing to the discussion instead of just attacking others. If you disagree with what people say, explain why and detail whatever information informs your point of view.
RE: What's up with this newfangled c... (in reply to Mark2)
quote:
Yes, after you learn dozens of falsetas in the main forms, after you learn dozens and dozens of ways to express the Compás of those forms, after you spend a number of years playing for dancers, and finally, if you still have gas in your tank, you learn dozens of cante melodies and the chords that have traditionally been used to accompany them, and you apply that knowledge by playing for a lot of singers and dancers, all your questions will be answered. And if you don’t they won’t. It’s simple. The path to becoming a flamenco guitarist is well worn. It just happens to be rather difficult and time consuming.
A bit exaggerated. But this is how it goes. I think Sabicas said once something similar like 10 years for cante, another 10 years for baile and 10 years for solo. For me overly exaggerated. But it depends on what you want to achieve at the end.
2) no. But theory vs. practice... You can talk about concepts you read in a book about swimming all you like, but if you don't know how to swim in practice, you may very well be unable to understand what the practitioners are actually saying. I'm confronted with that all the time here when I read the luthier section. The theoretical knowledge is there, more or less, but I've got zilch in terms of practice, and sometimes what they're saying flies over my head because of that.
3) -Nobody's doing that. - intellectual concepts vs. emotional sensitivity is a useless dichotomy here IMHO. - telepathy doesn't exist. ^^
4) It's a tool among others. Re: the comparison with language acquisition, there's not really any consensus on the best approach for adult language learners. Personally, I'm of the mind that the "intellectual" approach passing via grammar rules, etc. is an extremely useful accelerant, at least for learners who can assimilate those concepts. If you want to do without that and learn as a young child would, then you have to at least put yourself in the same situation a young child would be: full immersion all the time.
In the 70s, linguist Stephen Krashen laid out what he called the "monitor model", in which, among other things, he prioritised language input over output in the early stages of language acquisition. The model itself is "just" a hypothesis, and most likely an untestable one. But the interesting bit for this discussion is this: over the last decade or so, there's been a small revival of Krashen's model among self-taught learners. These are people who consciously decide to leave language textbooks aside, and instead take in a very heavy diet of language input, basically attempting to recreate the same process through which a child would learn. They leave aside trying to actually speak the language for several years before even attempting to speak. Quite the gambit! But why not?
Some time ago I had an email exchange with a practitioner of that approach. In our exchange, he told me that the difficulty he had with a grammar approach is that it offers you a set of rules, and it assumes that if you just apply those rules correctly, whatever sentence you create will work. He went on to say that this simply didn't work, because in reality there is usually only one or two ways that natives of the language would actually use to express that idea. So in his opinion, grammar-based learners run the risk of producing sentences that are grammatically correct but that just sound weird to native speakers. They don't sound creative. They sound awkward, coming more from a place of ignorance than from a place of creativity.
My first reaction was to push back, probably because it paints a rather dreary picture of what language is, and grants very little place to creativity. After further reflection however, I ended up more or less agreeing with him. There is still plenty of room for creativity, but the creativity that will "fit" and be recognised as more than just awkward speech by a foreigner is the kind that comes AFTER you have fully integrated and are able to reproduce the normal way of saying things.
If we keep this parallel with flamenco guitar, then the idea is that if you don't first reach a near "native" level in how you play, that is to say if you are unable to replicate the very precise ways in which X or Y things are usually done, then the creative expressions you throw out there may just sound awkward to a native ear. What you think of as creativity, they may just perceive as ignorance.
@rasqeo Keeping in mind the above, the reason I point these things out is not because I think I'm some sort of gatekeeper on what is the right way to do flamenco; it's because I think it's better for people to recognise their preconceptions for what they are, so that if and when they decide to confront themselves with a flamenco community, it goes well for them. That's all. Otherwise you'll be that guy who's written a bunch of stuff, maybe even received some praise for it, only to be told it absolutely sucks and isn't even remotely flamenco the first time he plays it in front of a knowing audience. That's first-hand experience. But if you want to go ahead and repeat my mistakes, feel like you've wasted hour upon hour composing things that only worked in your head, be my guest.
If people don't care about that and just want to do their own thing disconnected from any flamenco community, then that's different, and also fine. You can all hang out and play what you think of as flamenco and wax poetic about dragons and soul-quakes or whatever the f*ck else you want. You'll get no judgment from me on that. But if you do want to confront it all to a flamenco community, then I think it's best to know ahead of time what you're up against. Not sure what the point about Grisha, Samuelito and Luciano is, since all three of them have put in a lot of work to play note-for-note renditions of set pieces.
Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: What's up with this newfangled c... (in reply to Guest)
quote:
Off the top of my head Grisha, Samuelito, Luciano Ghosn. I’m sure there are many others.
Wtf? All they do is play covers! That’s the whole problem OP is bitching about and mark2 is defending those types! Grisha, unlike the other two who have been working with singers a lot, is the unique one that could be balancing his time better. But for cryin out loud putting in the work to learn those details in the flamenco guitar is exactly what we’ve been arguing is the way it has to done. Sheeeesh.
Posts: 1890
Joined: Dec. 2 2006
From: Budapest, now in Southampton
RE: What's up with this newfangled c... (in reply to Ricardo)
Grisha's route has been very different because of his circumstances. I'm not sure about Samuelito's background, but Luciano has definitely been down that road, from practicing countless hours at home in Lebanon to moving to Sevilla to accompany dance and cante, spending quite a bit of time as Antonio Rey's second guitarist.
Posts: 1871
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco
RE: What's up with this newfangled c... (in reply to Guest)
Not rules, just an opinion. Of course there are exceptions. Too bad Yerai Cortes isn't on the forum to offer an opinion from a real professional. He's probably too busy learning those Sabicas solos.
quote:
ORIGINAL: rasqeo77
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ricardo
quote:
Another armchair “expert”. How do you explain those excellent flamenco guitarists who haven’t followed that path?
Mark2 is a pro player for decades! . Please give the list of “excellent flamenco guitarists” that didn’t do exactly as Mark2 described.
Ok not an armchair expert then but still another example of “these are the RULES of flamenco and you must do EXACTLY as I say or you will FAIL”. Off the top of my head Grisha, Samuelito, Luciano Ghosn. I’m sure there are many others.
Posts: 1805
Joined: Nov. 8 2010
From: London (living in the Bay Area)
RE: What's up with this newfangled c... (in reply to Piwin)
quote:
These are people who consciously decide to leave language textbooks aside, and instead take in a very heavy diet of language input, basically attempting to recreate the same process through which a child would learn. They leave aside trying to actually speak the language for several years before even attempting to speak. Quite the gambit! But why not?
Because the native childhood faculty for language acquisition diminishes with age, as I’m sure you’re aware. Don’t the French say that the English speak a language called O-Level French, which no one else can understand?
quote:
he told me that the difficulty he had with a grammar approach is that it offers you a set of rules, and it assumes that if you just apply those rules correctly, whatever sentence you create will work.
Which is doubtless a contributing factor — along with textbooks that are ~30 years out of date.
But that was in my days (late ’50s to early ’60s). I’d be interested to know how things have changed (if at all).
Too bad there isn’t a natural flamenco guitar acquisition faculty
Posts: 1871
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco
RE: What's up with this newfangled c... (in reply to devilhand)
Well that's it isn't it? If you just want to be able to play solos, and maybe perform them, I guess you can forget all that cante and baile stuff. That is what some guitarists believe.
My first teacher taught me dozens of his solos. They were really old school, and by today's standards, simple. I developed the chops to play them. This led to a lot of work, some of it because my teacher was no longer interested in taking those jobs.
I remember telling a friend who was living in Spain studying flamenco that I had three fandangos solos under my fingers. He seemed impressed.
But then at a solo gig a half drunk Spaniard wanted to sing fandangos and I realized I had no idea how to accompany him. Despite his drunkenness, it was extremely embarrassing, to be playing in a Spanish restaurant and not be able to handle that.
I started studying with a local singer. Unfortunately, since she had no knowledge of the guitar, the lessons consisted of her shaking her head when I played the wrong chord. I was rather dumbfounded when she said my flamenco education had begun. I asked what she thought I had been doing the previous five or so years and she said "Studying the guitar"
It can be difficult to learn to accompany when the resources don't seem to be available. I know it was for me in the 80's, and the fact is, I never got as far as I wanted to. But I managed to learn a few things, and got opportunities to play for cante and baile. Not at what I'd consider a professional level, but at a level where I felt I could follow most dancers, and supply the chords for the most common letras used in dance shows.
This involved a completely different education and experience than playing solos. I also learned along the way that if you lack that type of experience, you will be dismissed by most flamencos, even if you can play solos well. Sometimes people don't want to hear that.
If that makes me some sort of flamenco police to some, what can I say? I have an opinion. I read Ricardo's posts and have been around long enough to know he has paid a lot of dues. Hell, he should be on retainer on the foro he has given so much. He's so patient with people who don't yet understand what he's banked.
I wouldn't be. I had a guy take a lesson once, a guy who had taken many lessons but still hadn't grasped compas. I made him put down his guitar and just do palmas in an attempt to help him see. He didn't and never came back. Oh well. He traded me a PdL concert ticket in exchange for the lesson, so I was good.
Piwin said it politely: @rasqeo Keeping in mind the above, the reason I point these things out is not because I think I'm some sort of gatekeeper on what is the right way to do flamenco; it's because I think it's better for people to recognise their preconceptions for what they are, so that if and when they decide to confront themselves with a flamenco community, it goes well for them. That's all. Otherwise you'll be that guy who's written a bunch of stuff, maybe even received some praise for it, only to be told it absolutely sucks and isn't even remotely flamenco the first time he plays it in front of a knowing audience. That's first-hand experience. But if you want to go ahead and repeat my mistakes, feel like you've wasted hour upon hour composing things that only worked in your head, be my guest.
You are free to repeat my mistakes as well. I have no doubt many will.
quote:
ORIGINAL: devilhand
A bit exaggerated. But this is how it goes. I think Sabicas said once something similar like 10 years for cante, another 10 years for baile and 10 years for solo. For me overly exaggerated. But it depends on what you want to achieve at the end.
RE: What's up with this newfangled c... (in reply to mark indigo)
quote:
I am pretty sensitive, hopefully to others as well as myself (people who are just sensitive to themselves are just "touchy" and a bit of a nightmare in my experience)
Mark [Indigo], just wanted to acknowledge this bit. I've been really bothered by a certain type of participant in public discussions through the years (not necessarily on here; I've been on forums, back then 'newsgroups', since the early 1990s) but never been able to put into few words what that 'type' is; with this I think you capture an essential characteristic. When I read it I almost pointed at the screen saying 'Yup, that right there is it!"
RE: What's up with this newfangled c... (in reply to Paul Magnussen)
Yes, the conditions are certainly different between language acquisition as a child and as an adult (mostly, though not entirely, with disadvantages for the adult compared to the child).
As I understand it, Krashen's model is based on the assumption that there is a divide between acquisition (subconscious) and learning (conscious). His view is that learning does not lead to acquisition. If that's the case (and that's a big "if" for me), then even if our acquisition faculties diminish with age, we would still be better off focusing on acquisition through exposure to input rather than focusing on the explicit teaching of grammar. At least I believe this is what proponents of this approach would tell you.
My personal impression is that the people trying this are reacting to two common observations: - there are students who excel at grammar-based exercises in school but struggle to produce spontaneous speech in a real-life setting, - the students who seem to really get comfortable with the language are those who are engaging with it outside of class (consuming media in that language, etc.).
I suspect there's a bit of an overreaction on their part and, since they've observed the lack of effectiveness of traditional classes, they've decided to toss the whole thing out, without bothering to see whether there was anything there that should be retained or not. I share their desire to put stronger focus on listening/reading materials in the language, but I don't see the need to chuck out explicit teaching of grammar as they do.
I don't know how formal teaching of foreign languages has evolved in the English-speaking world. In France, throughout my primary and secondary education in the 90s, then university in the late 90s early 2000s, it was still the case that grammar ran the show, and the rest was only granted a secondary role. Our textbooks were less outdated, but the general approach remained the same. The problems with this system are all too apparent. Teachers who are strong on grammar but weak on everything else then go on to reproduce the same results in their students. On the occasions where they are put to the test to see how they fare in listening comprehension or conversation, the results, at least in Europe, are disquieting to say the least.
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Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
RE: What's up with this newfangled c... (in reply to Piwin)
quote:
In the 70s, linguist Stephen Krashen laid out what he called the "monitor model", in which, among other things, he prioritised language input over output in the early stages of language acquisition. The model itself is "just" a hypothesis, and most likely an untestable one. But the interesting bit for this discussion is this: over the last decade or so, there's been a small revival of Krashen's model among self-taught learners. These are people who consciously decide to leave language textbooks aside, and instead take in a very heavy diet of language input, basically attempting to recreate the same process through which a child would learn. They leave aside trying to actually speak the language for several years before even attempting to speak. Quite the gambit! But why not?
Though not trained in linguistics, I have always been interested in languages, language development, and learning languages.
One of history's most interesting linguists was the British explorer Sir Richard Francis Burton. I devoured Burton biographies and always found it interesting that he translated "The Kama Sutra" and "The Perfumed Garden" into English. Burton was fluent in 29 languages, and if distinct dialects are included, 11 more, for a total of 40. He had his own method for learning a language, and I have quoted his own writing on the subject below.
"I got a simple grammar and vocabulary, marked out the forms and words which I knew were absolutely necessary, and learnt them by heart by carrying them in my pocket and looking over them at spare moments during the day. I never worked for more than a quarter of an hour at a time, for after that the brain lost its freshness. After learning some three hundred words, easily done in a week, I stumbled through some easy bookwork and underlined every word that I wished to recollect, in order to read over my pencillings at least once a day. Having finished my volume, I then carefully worked up the grammar minutiae, and I then chose some other book whose subject most interested me. The neck of the language was now broken, and progress was rapid.
"If I came across a new sound, like the Arabic Ghayn, I trained my tongue to it by repeating it so many thousand times a day. When I read, I invariably read out loud, so that the ear might aid memory. I was delighted with the most difficult characters, Chinese and Cuneiform, because I felt that they impressed themselves more strongly upon the eye than the eternal Roman letters. This, by-and-by, made me resolutely stand aloof from the hundred schemes for transliterating Eastern languages, such as Arabic, Sanscrit, Hebrew and Syriac, into Latin letters, and whenever I conversed with anybody in a language that I was learning, I took the trouble to repeat their words inaudibly after them, and so to learn the trick of pronunciation and emphasis."
Bill
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And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
RE: What's up with this newfangled c... (in reply to Piwin)
quote:
I don't know how formal teaching of foreign languages has evolved in the English-speaking world.
When I entered the U.S. Foreign Service, I studied Malay and Indonesian at the State Department's Foreign Service Institute in preparation for assignments to Kuala Lumpur and Jakarta respectively. The Foreign Service, as might be imagined, puts a high value on language acquisition. It cannot be compared to foreign language study at universities, and I have no idea how languages are taught in universities today.
Just to give an idea of language study at the Foreign Service Institute, Foreign Service Officers are assigned for the duration of their language study. The program runs five days a week, six hours per day. For World Languages such as Spanish, German, French Portuguese, etc., the course lasts for six months. For more difficult languages, Malay, Turkish, Russian, etc., the course lasts a year. And for the hard languages like Arabic, Chinese (Mandarin and Cantonese), and Japanese, the full course lasts two years.
The courses are all taught by native speakers of the language, so students are exposed to fluent speakers with much cultural knowledge to impart as well. It's one of the great benefits of a Foreign Service career.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
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