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Falsetta Etymology?   You are logged in as Guest
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aaron peacock

Posts: 141
Joined: Apr. 26 2020
From: Portugal

Falsetta Etymology? 
Falsetta Etymology?

- have there been serious efforts to date? (any existing compendiums as in something like trying to find the origins of all entries in Slonimsky's Thesaurus?)

- would you imagine AI or a sufficiently efficient lookup system or any other technological approach to make this more feasible?

- problems/challenges/roadblocks?

Do lifelong music afficionados here have memory banks of all the musical passages they ever heard and find themselves remembering where someone stole something from even if they won't admit it? Etc.

Asking for a (very motivated) friend. (not me.)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 1 2020 20:07:18
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: Falsetta Etymology? (in reply to aaron peacock) 
quote:

Falsetta Etymology?


I don't know the etymology of the word "falsetta" either....

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 1 2020 21:02:40
 
aaron peacock

Posts: 141
Joined: Apr. 26 2020
From: Portugal

RE: Falsetta Etymology? (in reply to mark indigo) 
quote:

quote:

Falsetta Etymology?


I don't know the etymology of the word "falsetta" either....


.... sounds somewhat fake... I'm suspicious :D

But I'm impressed by the general lore preservation and knowledge demonstrated here in the Foro, so I shan't be the least surprised if one of the old school regulars has an actual compendium of all Falsetas and the first time they were heard and who did what with them when, etc...

In no sense whatsoever should be this be taken as a homework assignment :P
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 1 2020 21:15:53
 
kitarist

Posts: 1715
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
 

RE: Falsetta Etymology? (in reply to aaron peacock) 
quote:

- would you imagine AI or a sufficiently efficient lookup system or any other technological approach to make this more feasible?


The COFLA project comes to mind. Check it out if you haven't already.

COFLA = COmputational analysis of FLAmenco music.

http://www.cofla-project.com/

It is in progress, but lots of nice goodies there already, especially on the cante side.

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Konstantin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 1 2020 21:42:07
 
Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Falsetta Etymology? (in reply to kitarist) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: kitarist

The COFLA project comes to mind. Check it out if you haven't already.



I just checked it out. It looks interesting. Thanks for the link.

RNJ
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 1 2020 23:17:49
 
aaron peacock

Posts: 141
Joined: Apr. 26 2020
From: Portugal

RE: Falsetta Etymology? (in reply to kitarist) 
quote:



The COFLA project comes to mind. Check it out if you haven't already.

COFLA = COmputational analysis of FLAmenco music.

http://www.cofla-project.com/

It is in progress, but lots of nice goodies there already, especially on the cante side.



!!! Wow
Thank you.
This is VERY interesting!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 1 2020 23:38:20
 
kitarist

Posts: 1715
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
 

RE: Falsetta Etymology? (in reply to Richard Jernigan) 
quote:

I just checked it out. It looks interesting. Thanks for the link.

RNJ


You are very welcome, Richard. I had bookmarked it for a while and had briefly looked into some of the cante papers, I think around the time of when we were drawing clock diagrams (and worse ) of intervals during that discussion.

There is this paper they link to - "Mathematics and Flamenco: An Unexpected Partnership" - that has interesting visuals in it, though some of the stuff is pretty simple or even simplistic. But also contains auto-calculated similarity clusters, like this of the sung melodies for deblas (D) and martinetes (M):



Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

Attachment (1)

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Konstantin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 2 2020 3:59:13
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: Falsetta Etymology? (in reply to aaron peacock) 
quote:

an actual compendium of all Falsetas and the first time they were heard and who did what with them when, etc...

As well as the "traditional" material that is passed around and passed on, there is a really strong element of creation and composition to factor in. Many of the cante styles and forms are named after particular individuals, and all major guitarists are composers and creators - arguably this is what makes a "great" guitarist in flamenco. I think this is something that separates flamenco as an art form from being purely folkloric.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 2 2020 10:51:56
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14797
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Falsetta Etymology? (in reply to aaron peacock) 
That analytics page has me worried...automatic transcription? .

Look, WHOEVER does this type of work has to already understand a lot of basic things, such as how to do palmas and what chords are. Anyway, the direct answer to the question is “yes, Norman for example”. Claud Worms has falseta collections as well that may or may not reveal certain evolutionary trends.

http://canteytoque.es/falsetacollections.htm

http://canteytoque.es/evolution.htm

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 2 2020 14:11:01
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: Falsetta Etymology? (in reply to Ricardo) 
quote:

Claud Worms has falseta collections as well that may or may not reveal certain evolutionary trends.


of course, I didn't even think of that, even though I have a few of them. But they are selections - it may be the case that, for example, he didn't include a falseta from Niño Ricardo BECAUSE it was a version of one he already included from Ramón Montoya - in this way using these kind of collections might skew "research" in favour of original falsetas as opposed to the passing on of "traditional" falsetas (which once were someone's "original" falsetas anyway...)

Also I think Alain Faucher put an article on his website "evolution of a falseta" that may be of interest.... hang on....

not "evolution", it's "metamorphosis"

https://affedis.com/articles/the-metamorphosis-of-a-falseta-part-one/

https://affedis.com/articles/the-metamorphosis-of-a-falseta-part-two/

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 2 2020 16:35:16
 
estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Falsetta Etymology? (in reply to aaron peacock) 
Yeah there’s an old and well established way of learning the way falsetas evolved and changed over time. Etymology is the study of how words change meanings through time and cultural shifts. The analogue in flamenco is to learn as many falsetas as you can and trace them from one guitarist of school of playing to as many other guitarists as you can. In that way, which seems pedestrian and difficult, you will learn hands on how falsetas change and evolve.

I would steer you to a fellow who did a study on how remate’ por Solea changed over 50 year period, but I can’t remember his whole name. Norman... somebody here will know

In other words the way to study falseta evolution and changes is to actually *gasp* dare to learn falsetas

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 3 2020 4:43:19
 
aaron peacock

Posts: 141
Joined: Apr. 26 2020
From: Portugal

RE: Falsetta Etymology? (in reply to aaron peacock) 
quote:

In other words the way to study falseta evolution and changes is to actually *gasp* dare to learn falsetas


oh crap. that's the most terrifying thing I have ever heard.

can you absolutely guarantee me that they won't come out in my own music by accident?

I can play/sing melodies like george benson without internalizing it, if that helps understand and advise.

i once learned one falsetta and it still comes out in my own stuff and ruins everything. it made me cry a lot.

but somehow that's not the same as improvising note-for-note copies while hearing it, or call-response phrasing, as is so useful in so many styles when accompanying and you are trying to cheat your way out of not knowing the first round of changes.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 5 2020 3:53:47
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: Falsetta Etymology? (in reply to aaron peacock) 
quote:

In other words the way to study falseta evolution and changes is to actually *gasp* dare to learn falsetas
quote:

oh crap. that's the most terrifying thing I have ever heard.



At least listen to some!

I guess if you want to become an "expert" on falseta etymology then the "10,000 hours" rule probably applies.... sorry, but I really don't think there is a short cut, and the shortest route is just to put the work in.


quote:

can you absolutely guarantee me that they won't come out in my own music by accident?.

No!
...and I think that's the point - if you want to be part of the "tradition" ie. the same one that all modern artists belong to, then you have to ingest the tradition so that it comes out in what you do, so that you sound "flamenco". (Ricardo has already said this in relation to learning the Maestros' material.

quote:

I can play/sing melodies like george benson without internalizing it, if that helps understand and advise.

When you can play/sing melodies like Chacon/Montoya, Pastora/Ricardo, Caracol/Melchor, Camaron/Paco, Camaron/Tomatito then you can do what you want....

quote:

i once learned one falsetta and it still comes out in my own stuff and ruins everything. it made me cry a lot.

Maybe that stuff is your best stuff....?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 5 2020 10:37:23
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