Foro Flamenco


Posts Since Last Visit | Advanced Search | Home | Register | Login

Today's Posts | Inbox | Profile | Our Rules | Contact Admin | Log Out



Welcome to one of the most active flamenco sites on the Internet. Guests can read most posts but if you want to participate click here to register.

This site is dedicated to the memory of Paco de Lucía, Ron Mitchell, Guy Williams, Linda Elvira, Philip John Lee, Craig Eros, Ben Woods, David Serva and Tom Blackshear who went ahead of us.

We receive 12,200 visitors a month from 200 countries and 1.7 million page impressions a year. To advertise on this site please contact us.





Which technique is this?   You are logged in as Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >>Discussions >>General >> Page: [1] 2    >   >>
Login
Message<< Newer Topic  Older Topic >>
 
devilhand

 

Posts: 1598
Joined: Oct. 15 2019
 

Which technique is this? 
Antonio Mairena is singing Mirabras accompanied by Manuel Morao. Very cool sounding part at 1:56, 4:25 and 5:56. Sounds like alzapua. But who knows.



_____________________________

Say No to Fuera de Compás!!!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 24 2020 22:19:34
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14797
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Which technique is this? (in reply to devilhand) 
It is a very personalized technique of his that he does in every palo. I learned a siguiriyas version and put it in compas for folks that want to learn it (cuz most of the time his concept of compas is very push pull with this technique and the math doesn’t always work). This was many years back and I have it a lot better now, this was after I first figured it out as it’s very tricky.



Here is a solea version I made up based on the same technique:



_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 25 2020 2:52:08
 
devilhand

 

Posts: 1598
Joined: Oct. 15 2019
 

RE: Which technique is this? (in reply to Ricardo) 
quote:

This was many years back and I have it a lot better now, this was after I first figured it out as it’s very tricky.

Awesome. Somehow I knew that only you could answer this question.
I think what makes it tricky is the ability to coordinate super fast movements of 3 different fingers. Mostly at the same time. The thumb is playing alzapua while the index finger is striking treble strings and the ring finger is doing golpe. One more technique to master.

_____________________________

Say No to Fuera de Compás!!!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 25 2020 20:42:19
 
orsonw

Posts: 1934
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: Which technique is this? (in reply to devilhand) 
The younger generation Diego del Morao and Pepe del Morao, use it too:

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 25 2020 21:32:36
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14797
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Which technique is this? (in reply to devilhand) 
I remember teaching this siguiriyas technique at elite guitarist but it seems only the solea part is available for free?

quote:

The thumb is playing alzapua while the index finger is striking treble strings and the ring finger is doing golpe.


Actually alzapúa implies using the thumb as a pick so the upstroke is involved. Here there is no up stroke with the thumb.. the thumb drags across two notes where the second one takes on the beat feeling, and the index only plays the open first string. Although that is 3 notes, triplet, he doesn’t always have a 3 or 6 feeling (like what I do in the solea above). The siguiriyas is 6’s and 9’s mainly, p-i-p, p-i-p, etc. When I do the golpe there is a tricky change of p-P golpe-i....or hammer pull then i-i where i is up-down filling in the triplet.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 26 2020 18:43:47
 
devilhand

 

Posts: 1598
Joined: Oct. 15 2019
 

RE: Which technique is this? (in reply to Ricardo) 
quote:

Actually alzapúa implies using the thumb as a pick so the upstroke is involved. Here there is no up stroke with the thumb.. the thumb drags across two notes where the second one takes on the beat feeling, and the index only plays the open first string.

As for the thumb the other day I thought the same. Thanks for mentioning the 1st open string because I wanted to ask about this.

_____________________________

Say No to Fuera de Compás!!!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 28 2020 13:47:38
 
devilhand

 

Posts: 1598
Joined: Oct. 15 2019
 

RE: Which technique is this? (in reply to orsonw) 
quote:

The younger generation Diego del Morao and Pepe del Morao, use it too:


Thanks for the video. You appear out of nothing and post useful stuff like this. It happened many times. Keep it up!

_____________________________

Say No to Fuera de Compás!!!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 28 2020 22:17:48
 
devilhand

 

Posts: 1598
Joined: Oct. 15 2019
 

RE: Which technique is this? (in reply to devilhand) 
Here's an interesting way of plucking the strings with the index and middle finger at 0:08-0:23 and 0:31-0:40. Looks like he's pressing down the strings with his fingertips which leads to a strange way of planting. Is it technically correct? Or is this another personalized technique?



_____________________________

Say No to Fuera de Compás!!!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 8 2021 20:47:02
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14797
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Which technique is this? (in reply to devilhand) 
Yes some personalized “sweeping” arpegios instead of a-m-i.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 10 2021 3:19:00
 
devilhand

 

Posts: 1598
Joined: Oct. 15 2019
 

RE: Which technique is this? (in reply to devilhand) 
At 18:49-18:55 one can clearly hear golpe. Which finger does golpe here? The ring or middle finger? To me it looks like it's the ring finger.

Btw, at 11:36 a clear demonstration of how rest stroke and free stroke picado would differ in sound. Visually there's a difference. But close your eyes and listen. Acoustically no difference?



_____________________________

Say No to Fuera de Compás!!!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 16 2021 20:29:36
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14797
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Which technique is this? (in reply to devilhand) 
Ring does golpe (possible that pinky joins it but it is not visible so can’t be sure).

No the run sounds like tremolo and it is so aggressive that it makes the open b string ring out the entire time....very different than apoyando detached sound.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 16 2021 22:11:12
 
devilhand

 

Posts: 1598
Joined: Oct. 15 2019
 

RE: Which technique is this? (in reply to Ricardo) 
quote:

Ring does golpe (possible that pinky joins it but it is not visible so can’t be sure).

Indeed it's the ring finger. It was irritating first. Because later at 19:04 he plays golpe with the middle finger.

I guess a single treble string is accented with ring finger golpe. When he plays pulgar downstroke - at least 2 strings (bass or treble strings or both bass and treble) are accented -, then middle finger golpe is used. But I'm not sure one can generalise this rule.

quote:

No the run sounds like tremolo and it is so aggressive that it makes the open b string ring out the entire time....very different than apoyando detached sound.

Do you think he uses ima fingers before im picado?

_____________________________

Say No to Fuera de Compás!!!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 17 2021 13:00:00
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14797
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Which technique is this? (in reply to devilhand) 
quote:

Do you think he uses ima fingers before im picado?


No. I KNOW he uses a-m-i-a-m-i etc...

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 17 2021 17:19:39
 
devilhand

 

Posts: 1598
Joined: Oct. 15 2019
 

RE: Which technique is this? (in reply to Ricardo) 
quote:

No. I KNOW he uses a-m-i-a-m-i etc...

Is Paco using ami tirando here at 7:46?



_____________________________

Say No to Fuera de Compás!!!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 11 2021 18:23:13
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14797
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Which technique is this? (in reply to devilhand) 
Yes

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 12 2021 13:41:01
 
devilhand

 

Posts: 1598
Joined: Oct. 15 2019
 

RE: Which technique is this? (in reply to devilhand) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: devilhand

Here's an interesting way of plucking the strings with the index and middle finger at 0:08-0:23 and 0:31-0:40. Looks like he's pressing down the strings with his fingertips which leads to a strange way of planting. Is it technically correct? Or is this another personalized technique?




At 15:26-15:32 I've seen this technique for the second time now. El Chalo uses it in the video above. According to Mr. Marlow it should be played as descending ami arpeggio. What are the pros and cons of using this technique instead of ami arp?

Anyhow I proudly accept it as a new technique. It deserves a suitable name. Any idea?
Who knows maybe this technique is a real flamenco guitar technique like pulgar and was replaced by arpeggio - a classical guitar technique. Btw, does anyone know who's singing and playing?



_____________________________

Say No to Fuera de Compás!!!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 2 2021 22:30:04
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14797
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Which technique is this? (in reply to devilhand) 
The ami replacement technique in the first video is called “arrastre”, normally used as the return stroke of a big 6 note chord rather than a triad the way your guy uses it.

In the second video what the guy is doing at 15:26 is called “Tremolo”, he is hitting multiple strings is all the difference is from how you probably think of it. Anyway if you practice what he is doing you will eventually get the correct flamenco tremolo as well, you just target individual strings and bass notes are normally only one or two notes struck as a rest like that at a time. Honestly you want to finger the left hand shapes for tremolo with the actual intent if hitting multiple strings anyway, either accidentally or on purpose doesn’t matter. Then you later close the gap of time between the ending thumb stroke and the starting i stroke.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 3 2021 18:36:01
 
devilhand

 

Posts: 1598
Joined: Oct. 15 2019
 

RE: Which technique is this? (in reply to Ricardo) 
Arrastre and tremolo?
The way I see it, there's a slight difference but in the end both are the same technique. In the first video it's played more expressive and faster, in the second video slower and softer. I would say it's an old fashioned technique which is rarely used nowadays. The reason is maybe descending arp is more superior and sounds cleaner. But I like the way this technique sounds.

_____________________________

Say No to Fuera de Compás!!!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 3 2021 21:10:47
 
devilhand

 

Posts: 1598
Joined: Oct. 15 2019
 

RE: Which technique is this? (in reply to devilhand) 
I slowed down both videos and examined their finger movements. That's what I got. (a) is a general way of executing it. (b) and (c) are a slightly different version of it. To me both are the same technique even though they are executed a bit differently.

1st video



2nd video



quote:

The ami replacement technique in the first video is called “arrastre”, normally used as the return stroke of a big 6 note chord rather than a triad the way your guy uses it.

Look at the finger movements in the first video. This is obviously not arrastre. To me it looks like a lazy/dirty way to play ami + p.



Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

Attachment (3)

_____________________________

Say No to Fuera de Compás!!!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 4 2021 14:05:45
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14797
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Which technique is this? (in reply to devilhand) 
Arrastre is when you drag a finger across the strings to arpeggiate a chord. Most often the ring finger but you can use any finger you want to sweep across. This guy is doing triads instead of big chords.

Time to let you know that you ask great questions and have good observations, however your insistence in arguing AGAINST the correct answers as provided by those that have more experience, goes far beyond the normal frustration level of internet communication. I lately feel reluctant to answer back amigo.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 4 2021 14:26:55
 
devilhand

 

Posts: 1598
Joined: Oct. 15 2019
 

RE: Which technique is this? (in reply to Ricardo) 
quote:

however your insistence in arguing AGAINST the correct answers as provided by those that have more experience

You were right about ami replacement above. But this is not arrastre I've seen so far. One should look at the whole picture and call it for example the 'ami followed by pulgar' replacement technique. One thing comes to my mind now is ami part will sound differently because of apoyando sound.

_____________________________

Say No to Fuera de Compás!!!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 4 2021 14:48:21
 
estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Which technique is this? (in reply to devilhand) 
quote:

quote:

however your insistence in arguing AGAINST the correct answers as provided by those that have more experience

You were right about ami replacement above. But this is not arrastre I've seen so far. One should look at the whole picture and call it for example the 'ami followed by pulgar' replacement technique. One thing comes to my mind now is ami part will sound differently because of apoyan


Listen up Youngblood,
Ricardo knows a billion times more about this stuff than you do. Stop arguing with a master. He knows and you don’t. Period. End of discussion. Work on knowing who you are and listen to those who already know who they are.

_____________________________

https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 4 2021 16:38:44
 
devilhand

 

Posts: 1598
Joined: Oct. 15 2019
 

RE: Which technique is this? (in reply to estebanana) 
quote:

Ricardo knows a billion times more about this stuff than you do.

Of course he does. No one questioned it.

quote:

Arrastre is when you drag a finger across the strings to arpeggiate a chord. Most often the ring finger but you can use any finger you want to sweep across. This guy is doing triads instead of big chords.

Yes. The first sentence is the definition of arrastre. But playing arrastre on treble strings is true only in theory. I want to see someone doing it. Anyone care to post a video showing this?

Anyhow, what makes this way of playing special is all 3 treble strings are played apoyando. Descending ami arp won't sound like this. To my taste calling it a new technique is a bit exaggerated. But this has its own sound and is worth mastering. What surprises me is it has never been taught or shown. I don't know if someone plays this way on rito y geografia series. If someone has a video, please post it here.

As for the second video, one can say it's tremolo. Very weird version of tremolo. The pure tremolo will sound cleaner I guess.

_____________________________

Say No to Fuera de Compás!!!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 6 2021 17:41:42
 
Escribano

Posts: 6415
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: Which technique is this? (in reply to devilhand) 
quote:

Of course he does. No one questioned it.


Except that you did, as usual

_____________________________

Foro Flamenco founder and Admin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 6 2021 18:08:40
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14797
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Which technique is this? (in reply to devilhand) 
quote:

Very weird version of tremolo.


Standard flamenco technique .... you need to get a teacher or everyday you will find a new guy inventing the wheel on youtube.



_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 7 2021 0:08:05
 
estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Which technique is this? (in reply to devilhand) 
If you master Morao’s right hand mechanismo, ya only need three chords por siguiriya, and maybe a Gm and occasionally an E7

Just saying

_____________________________

https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 7 2021 7:42:53
 
devilhand

 

Posts: 1598
Joined: Oct. 15 2019
 

RE: Which technique is this? (in reply to estebanana) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

If you master Morao’s right hand mechanismo, ya only need three chords por siguiriya, and maybe a Gm and occasionally an E7

Just saying

I'll take a look at it. My left hand wrist hates that Siguiriya pattern in por medio.

_____________________________

Say No to Fuera de Compás!!!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 3 2021 23:24:13
 
devilhand

 

Posts: 1598
Joined: Oct. 15 2019
 

RE: Which technique is this? (in reply to devilhand) 
What a strange way to play picado at 2:39. I've never seen anyone doing like this. Or is it 3 finger picado?



_____________________________

Say No to Fuera de Compás!!!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 3 2021 23:27:15
 
orsonw

Posts: 1934
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: Which technique is this? (in reply to devilhand) 
quote:


What a strange way to play picado at 2:39. I've never seen anyone doing like this. Or is it 3 finger picado?


Looks like it could be picado using I A?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 4 2021 9:49:42
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14797
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Which technique is this? (in reply to orsonw) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: orsonw

quote:


What a strange way to play picado at 2:39. I've never seen anyone doing like this. Or is it 3 finger picado?


Looks like it could be picado using I A?


Yep, Manuel Morao also did that.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 4 2021 12:20:52
Page:   [1] 2    >   >>
All Forums >>Discussions >>General >> Page: [1] 2    >   >>
Jump to:

New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software powered by ASP Playground Advanced Edition 2.0.5
Copyright © 2000 - 2003 ASPPlayground.NET

0.078125 secs.