RE: Right hand Pinky / Little finger

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gerundino63

Posts: 1743
Joined: Jul. 11 2003
From: The Netherlands

RE: Right hand Pinky / Little finger (in reply to devilhand)

No. You overpractice. Watch out for tendonitis.
Rule 1. If you stop playing and the pain goes away it is ok. If you stop playing and still feel pain or a strainge sensation, you over practice.

Take it easy on the rasq. Learning is with your mind not with your hands.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 30 2020 20:27:05

kitarist

Posts: 1715
Joined: Dec. 4 2012

RE: Right hand Pinky / Little finger (in reply to gerundino63)

quote:

No. You overpractice.

But how would he over-practice on air guitar?

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Konstantin

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 30 2020 21:32:29

gerundino63

Posts: 1743
Joined: Jul. 11 2003
From: The Netherlands

RE: Right hand Pinky / Little finger (in reply to kitarist)

Haha, does he still have no flamenco guitar yet?.....oh boy.
No wonder he gets tendonitis...

Just a little joke...

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 31 2020 11:56:21

devilhand

Posts: 1598
Joined: Oct. 15 2019

RE: Right hand Pinky / Little finger (in reply to kitarist)

quote:

But how would he over-practice on air guitar?

My 1977 cedar top Ramirez negra sounds muy flamenco and responds quickly. The sound is very loud and bright despite being negra.

quote:

Rule 1. If you stop playing and the pain goes away it is ok. If you stop playing and still feel pain or a strainge sensation, you over practice.

That's a good point. I remember reading something similar somewhere. It feels normal during practice and starts to hurt next day or week out of nothing.

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Say No to Fuera de Compás!!!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 31 2020 12:25:27

mark indigo

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007

RE: Right hand Pinky / Little finger (in reply to devilhand)

quote:

My 1977 cedar top Ramirez negra

The term "negra" is only used for flamenco guitars to distinguish flamenco guitars with rosewood back and sides from cypress bodied "blanca" guitars.

If your 1977 cedar top Ramirez is a classical guitar, then it is not a "1977 cedar top Ramirez negra", it's a "1977 cedar top Ramirez classical"

quote:

Rule 1. If you stop playing and the pain goes away it is ok. If you stop playing and still feel pain or a strainge sensation, you over practice.

quote:

It feels normal during practice and starts to hurt next day or week out of nothing.

If you stop playing and the pain goes away it means that, in the absence of some other injury or disease, either you practised in a bad way (eg. inappropriate muscle-tension) which caused the pain, or you over-practised which caused the pain.

Either way pain is an indicator of a problem.

If you stop playing and the pain persists the likely cause is the same, but indicates a longer term problem i.e. you have been practising in a bad way for a longer period of time, or you have been over-practising for a longer period of time.

If there is a time gap between stopping practising and the pain starting it is likely that your sensitivity and self-awareness during practise is so low that you can't feel the damage from bad and/or over-practise until some time after you stop.

The good news is that in the absence of (some other) injury or disease you can change the way you practise/play and/or the intensity/repetition.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 31 2020 13:39:28

Auda

Posts: 246
Joined: Sep. 28 2019

RE: Right hand Pinky / Little finger (in reply to gerundino63)

quote:

Learning is with your mind not with your hands.

Tell that to my stupid fingers. Muscle memory is a fairly large component to playing.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 31 2020 17:08:58

kitarist

Posts: 1715
Joined: Dec. 4 2012

RE: Right hand Pinky / Little finger (in reply to devilhand)

quote:

My ring finger plucks the string [..] almost independently from the pinky

Don't do that and especially don't force it to do that; let you pinky follow naturally whatever the ring finger is going. If you are aiming to make them 'independent', all you are doing is setting yourself up for injury. These fingers are sharing hardware and no amount of practice is going to change that. The sticking out pinky is another symptom of that and of parasitic tension.

Yes, it is true that professionals sometimes have these features, but it is not something to emulate when you are learning. When you look at professional virtuosos, what you see is the outcome of a 'darwinian' process whereby you only see the ones whose body could handle whatever they threw at it - chronic extra tension, weird wrist angles, whatever.

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Konstantin

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 31 2020 17:11:11

kitarist

Posts: 1715
Joined: Dec. 4 2012

RE: Right hand Pinky / Little finger (in reply to Auda)

quote:

Muscle memory is a fairly large component to playing

Yes but it is not referring to muscles having memories; it means the brain having a memory of set sequences of coordination and firing of muscles. In other words, it is about 'chunking' finger movements and pushing that into subconscious control rather than executing it with conscious control.

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Konstantin

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 31 2020 17:16:43

gerundino63

Posts: 1743
Joined: Jul. 11 2003
From: The Netherlands

RE: Right hand Pinky / Little finger (in reply to kitarist)

Thanks, kitarist, my english is too bad to explain this eloquently.

Altough the word eloquently is pretty eloquent.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 31 2020 17:47:11

devilhand

Posts: 1598
Joined: Oct. 15 2019

RE: Right hand Pinky / Little finger (in reply to kitarist)

Actually I concentrate only on my ring finger so that it moves independently from the index and middle finger. I don't pay attention to the pinky at all. But it looks like it needs attention.
The more I try to make the ring finger independent the more the pinky wants to stick out like in picado. Not straight but curled.
Good news is when I increase the tempo my attention to independent movement decreases and the pinky follows the ring finger or it sticks out less.

quote:

If there is a time gap between stopping practising and the pain starting it is likely that your sensitivity and self-awareness during practise is so low that you can't feel the damage from bad and/or over-practise until some time after you stop.

This is true. Been doing independent finger movements for more than a month now. Now it's over. I hope my brain and muscle memory absorbed good movements in the last few weeks.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 1 2020 15:08:03

mark indigo

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007

RE: Right hand Pinky / Little finger (in reply to devilhand)

quote:

Been doing independent finger movements for more than a month now. Now it's over.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 1 2020 15:53:33

mark indigo

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007

RE: Right hand Pinky / Little finger (in reply to Auda)

quote:

Muscle memory is a fairly large component to playing.

If you think about the question "which structure in the muscles stores memories?" I think you will find that "muscle memory" doesn't actually exist. I think at best "muscle memory" is a metaphorical figure of speech and at worst it is an abdication of responsibility where we blame our fingers for playing badly instead of learning how to use them properly.

In other words I agree with Kitarist:

quote:

Yes but it is not referring to muscles having memories; it means the brain having a memory of set sequences of coordination and firing of muscles. In other words, it is about 'chunking' finger movements

but not so sure about the conscious/subconscious control part.... I am usually conscious when playing the guitar

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 1 2020 15:57:34

Auda

Posts: 246
Joined: Sep. 28 2019

RE: Right hand Pinky / Little finger (in reply to kitarist)

quote:

it means the brain having a memory of set sequences of coordination and firing of muscles. In other words, it is about 'chunking' finger movements and pushing that into subconscious control rather than executing it with conscious control.

This is the general meaning of the phrase muscle memory when used. Don't know of anyone believing muscles had brains. What I was trying to differentiate was between mindful practice typically at a slower rate to establish the sequences/phrases and playing at full speed once they have been established.

For me when I have a piece established I play it more with a short hand mentality where I only have to think about certain triggers for the sections. It also allows for thinking about the sections on a grander scale rather than the minutia of individual notes.

Cheers

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 1 2020 18:04:39

kitarist

Posts: 1715
Joined: Dec. 4 2012

RE: Right hand Pinky / Little finger (in reply to Auda)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Auda

quote:

it means the brain having a memory of set sequences of coordination and firing of muscles. In other words, it is about 'chunking' finger movements and pushing that into subconscious control rather than executing it with conscious control.

This is the general meaning of the phrase muscle memory when used. Don't know of anyone believing muscles had brains.

This exchange below is what prompted my comment:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Auda

quote:

ORIGINAL: gerundino63

Learning is with your mind not with your hands.

Tell that to my stupid fingers. Muscle memory is a fairly large component to playing.

You are telling me this is you agreeing with gerundino63? It's a fairly odd way to do it; reads like the compete opposite. So, thanks for clarifying .

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Konstantin

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 1 2020 19:40:28

kitarist

Posts: 1715
Joined: Dec. 4 2012

RE: Right hand Pinky / Little finger (in reply to mark indigo)

quote:

I am usually conscious when playing the guitar

Pffft...

Amateur..

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Konstantin

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 1 2020 19:44:02

devilhand

Posts: 1598
Joined: Oct. 15 2019

RE: Right hand Pinky / Little finger (in reply to mark indigo)

quote:

but not so sure about the conscious/subconscious control part.... I am usually conscious when playing the guitar

Wikipedia says "with little to no conscious effort"
"When a movement is repeated over time, a long-term muscle memory is created for that task, eventually allowing it to be performed with little to no conscious effort"

I think subconscious means here without paying attention to what you're playing. That means mechanical movements your fingers do while you're doing something different for example watching TV.

At this stage I want to add an interesting fact. In connection with muscle memory your brain takes time to process - at least 2 days. Assume you learnt a new passage on Sunday. Muscle memory won't kick in on Monday. You'll surprise when you can execute that new passage way better on Tuesday.

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Say No to Fuera de Compás!!!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 1 2020 20:44:28

mark indigo

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007

RE: Right hand Pinky / Little finger (in reply to Auda)

quote:

Don't know of anyone believing muscles had brains.

You'd be surprised, I have actually had this argument with a real live person.... and maybe I'm about to have it again....

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 1 2020 21:20:58

mark indigo

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007

RE: Right hand Pinky / Little finger (in reply to devilhand)

quote:

Wikipedia says "with little to no conscious effort"
"When a movement is repeated over time, a long-term muscle memory is created for that task, eventually allowing it to be performed with little to no conscious effort"

I think subconscious means here without paying attention to what you're playing. That means mechanical movements your fingers do while you're doing something different for example watching TV.

At this stage I want to add an interesting fact. In connection with muscle memory your brain takes time to process - at least 2 days. Assume you learnt a new passage on Sunday. Muscle memory won't kick in on Monday. You'll surprise when you can execute that new passage way better on Tuesday.

muscles don't have brains. brains have memories. muscles don't have memories.

not only that but there is a very real relationship between our concepts of how our minds and bodies work, and how we use them in activity. If you want to practise or play "without paying attention to what you're playing" go ahead, see where that gets you....

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 1 2020 21:25:27

mark indigo

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007

RE: Right hand Pinky / Little finger (in reply to kitarist)

quote:

quote:

I am usually conscious when playing the guitar

Pffft... Amateur..

i tried playing guitar unconscious, but i can't remember what it was like...

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 1 2020 23:40:25

rombsix

Posts: 7808
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: Right hand Pinky / Little finger (in reply to mark indigo)

quote:

i tried playing guitar unconscious, but i can't remember what it was like...

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Ramzi

http://www.youtube.com/rombsix

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 2 2020 17:50:50

gerundino63

Posts: 1743
Joined: Jul. 11 2003
From: The Netherlands

RE: Right hand Pinky / Little finger (in reply to gerundino63)

Thinking of it, is muscle memory not a kind of reflex? And, is it not situated in the spine?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 2 2020 19:17:42

Ricardo

Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Right hand Pinky / Little finger (in reply to gerundino63)

quote:

Thinking of it, is muscle memory not a kind of reflex? And, is it not situated in the spine?

Of course not...then how could you play a song in order when required?

it’s all brain if you are doing it correctly. This concept of muscle memory also requires outside stimulus. For example, when I used to read stuff and play classical in college, I noticed a funny thing that when I saw a different layout of the score, I couldn’t play it as well. My eyes needed to see that other score so my fingers would remember how to play. Later it was items on my wall in the room I practiced or learned a piece while sitting in. I needed to visualize that “thing” and the music would appear. I slowly realized how dangerous and impractical this “muscle memory” thing was and started to re-learn pieces based entirely on rhythmic understanding. It really feels different to be in control of every single note than to sit on stage and “hope” my fingers will remember everything. Rhythmic understanding allows one to almost improvise the musical phrase, or rather make an educated guess, in real time with almost no damage to the original idea. Might be harder to do that with Bach or Mozart than flamenco, but in all honesty, I am sure that is also how they were thinking and composing.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 3 2020 15:35:13

devilhand

Posts: 1598
Joined: Oct. 15 2019

RE: Right hand Pinky / Little finger (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

For example, when I used to read stuff and play classical in college, I noticed a funny thing that when I saw a different layout of the score, I couldn’t play it as well. My eyes needed to see that other score so my fingers would remember how to play. Later it was items on my wall in the room I practiced or learned a piece while sitting in. I needed to visualize that “thing” and the music would appear. I slowly realized how dangerous and impractical this “muscle memory” thing was and started to re-learn pieces based entirely on rhythmic understanding.

Muscle memory and memorizing music are 2 different things. For the latter the optimal way is visualisation as you mentioned above.
Muscle memory is very important for beginners when it comes to developing new techniques which require repetitive movements like im picado or imami arpegio etc.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 4 2020 20:14:23

Ricardo

Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Right hand Pinky / Little finger (in reply to devilhand)

quote:

Muscle memory and memorizing music are 2 different things.

So memory is not memorizing?

.

The basic point is to be in control of your finger movements or you will get into trouble. Don’t let them be the boss.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 5 2020 3:21:48