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RE: For those who do not like el cante (in reply to Morante)
Good point gerundio! The answer to your question is pretty subjective I suppose and by answering the question one may end up answering my question with the same answer. So I'll try to share my train of thoughts:
In Flamenco there's cante, toque y baile, but obviously one can be only into one or two of these three things.
Someone that only likes or loves solo-guitar in Flamenco, or only the baile, or only the singing is "someone that likes/is a lover of flamenco solo-guitar / singing / dancing". Which is not to say they are any lesser, but calling one self "a Flamenco" seems like such a strong expression that includes honestly being into all three of these things.
Surely, these only are my thoughts, subjective as they are, as a non-Andalusian, non-gitano that is still at the beginning of his journey through and with this art. They may seem terribly wrong to another person, and I'd gladly read about - and maybe even learn from - your definition of "a Flamenco".
Posts: 14797
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: For those who do not like el cante (in reply to Deniz)
Each element of flamenco can stand strongly alone, but in order for the listener to truly grasp the depth of the artistic expression, it requires some filling in the blanks with your imagination. We saw this example in Cante Accompaniment thread:
While it is naked singing to a light percussion, when I hear it I hear the glorious harmonic background and powerful cadences that would otherwise be present. I tried the best I could to recreate what I hear in my head by playing guitar along to this performance. This was a raw performance and since then I actually hear it differently a little (I have learned a lot since then and anticipate things more)
But also I “hear” the music, chordal candence, and even the cante melody in my mind when I watch first 40 seconds of this:
In other words its not just percussion and movement, there is actual melody and harmony in my head that this guy is expressing. I am sure it is the same deal for many aficionados, and it totally legitimizes the solo elements of flamenco, but it IS subjective of course. But in a weird way that subjective aspect of filling in the blanks differently for each individual, IS the beauty and depth of the expression itself.
Now lastly, there is guitar solo. Not naming names but there are some that love cante and that’s great, but have ZERO time or tolerance for solo guitar, especially a concert of it. It has been mentioned that during cante festivals in Spain, the guitar solo feature would be the time to use the bathroom or get another manzanilla. But to me, the concept above also applies to guitar. When I hear a GOOD guitar solo, inside the falsetas my brain is hearing cante and baile going on. In fact, in the below example, that is ALL I hear going on and the only actual “flamenco guitar” expression is the brief moment at 3:03, and perhaps the very ending:
RE: For those who do not like el cante (in reply to Morante)
I would say you could probably add my name to the "not naming names" portion of those who get bored with solo guitar. This example is not one of them, and many times during that video I let out a WOW. I don't know, I think many other players that would attempt what was played would make the piece more classical sounding, and it is the power and the expression that seems more flamenco--great technique. For myself in general, ANY solo work can be impressive, intriguing and awe inspiring (think Buddy Rich drum solo) but after a few minutes it can be ok, that's getting to be too much. This is one reason that as much as I admire Jason McGuire's playing and am in awe, sometimes I am wanting the piece to breathe a bit more and in general prefer a less gifted guitarist. Even Bach cello suites have their limitations! Okay, I'm putting my hands up on the cross, start driving the spikes in!
Posts: 14797
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: For those who do not like el cante (in reply to ric)
quote:
This is one reason that as much as I admire Jason McGuire's playing and am in awe, sometimes I am wanting the piece to breathe a bit more and in general prefer a less gifted guitarist.
In his defense, I would point out that I agree, he is not always the more lyrical type player, though I recall a lovely tremolo he composed for a dance show, however, we pro guitarist work most often in the situation where a dance choreographer wants us to “program” the entire show to a dance concept. This influences the tempo dynamics and character of the music. In that sense, when I see this guy do his guitar solo, I hear him bringing all that baggage into his compositions. In other words, that busy “over playing” that he often exhibits is a direct result of dance rhythm and movement things I am familiar with. It starts from required off the beaten path special rhythms, and adds up to filling a LOT of space musically. For myself I have deliberately tried to separate my compositions from the dance world I work in, but inevitably I need a “falseta” and whenever I pull from either my own or the traditional material, it ends up having to be altered, often in ways I don’t particularly LIKE musically, but it has to be done to function. Guys like Jason really seem to love the creative inspiration from the dance world and that becomes a huge part of their personal style. Caño Roto guys in Madrid I also hear this thing, it’s not about displaying busy technique stuff, it’s about creating “new” things for the dance world, and it gets quite busy at times.
Conversely, there are guitarists that have enough prestige that they can simply compose a “dance show” such that the dancers have to adapt to THEIR music, rather than be “accompanied”, if that makes sense? I am quite sure the general audience won’t understand that distinction.
RE: For those who do not like el cante (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
however, we pro guitarist work most often in the situation where a dance choreographer wants us to “program” the entire show to a dance concept.
You know how Vicente or Paco’s dance accompaniment gives the dancer a lot of breathing room? Lots of percussion only, short accent melodies, and then they come in with rasgueado to accentuate the end of a fast footwork passage? I’ve always liked this theme/style Versus EVERY single foot step by the dancer have to be backed by guitar 90% of the time. If you understand what I mean. Of course Vicente is giving his hands a break, and the listener’s ear a change from solo guitar, so it might not work for an entire dance show. But it feels more modern in a sense to me. OR maybe it just doesn’t work like this when the dancer has all the sections of a palo to go through vs a solo.
RE: For those who do not like el cante (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
, it’s not about displaying busy technique stuff, it’s about creating “new” things for the dance world, and it gets quite busy at times.
Agreed. I suppose for myself (and I don't want to knock Jason or anyone else) it's a question of preference, and mine is clearly towards that which "breathes" fast, slow, lyrical, dense, etc. Like Coltrane, if he played full out all the time (sheets of sound, which in a way, Jason does too) it sounds fantastic, but a little goes a long way, and this just boils down to personal preference. As for writing to fit the piece, you have to inject who you are (musically) into the piece, and certainly I am no judge in what was intended, or how the dance/choreography influences the final outcome. That, I will leave to the more sophisticated/knowledgeable ears, such as your own!
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From: Washington DC
RE: For those who do not like el cante (in reply to JasonM)
quote:
You know how Vicente or Paco’s dance accompaniment gives the dancer a lot of breathing room? Lots of percussion only, short accent melodies, and then they come in with rasgueado to accentuate the end of a fast footwork passage?
Right. The luxury of being a leader and guy providing the pay check. Dancers normally don’t want that, and are more often in charge. As an extreme example one dancer told me “do a picado with me here” it was very awkward uncomfortable thing in context. Next I matched his move with rasgueado power chords “no, I want alzapua here”, then his shoulder comes up, boink...I do a quick accent on tonic chord. “No! Otro tono ...”... I went through the entire chord scale until I found the damn chord he wanted. After learning the whole 14 minute dance, we do a run through, I missed ONE Corte and the guy stopped us and told the director “next time I must bring my own guitarist”. At least this guy was a master with great timing. Many are not high level and it can be even more frustrating when you get blamed for THEIR faults.
I recall a first rehearsal with a dancer and we got stopped in the first llamada so the cantaor whispered in my ear “here we go, welcome to hell!”
This is the type of thing the hired guns get to deal with. You won’t ever know or experience it until you get good enough level to make it your living. As I said about Jason and many others, they get very good with dealing with this and in the end embrace the concept which shapes the music they produce.
RE: For those who do not like el cante (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
Right. The luxury of being a leader and guy providing the pay check. Dancers normally don’t want that, and are more often in charge.
Well, I got to say you and McGuire always do an amazing job of keeping the music and playing interesting! I guess it all is no surprise really. Playing for dance class and learning accompaniment is like a grooming on how to be a subservient machine
RE: For those who do not like el cante (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
As an extreme example one dancer told me “do a picado with me here” it was very awkward uncomfortable thing in context. Next I matched his move with rasgueado power chords “no, I want alzapua here”, then his shoulder comes up, boink...I do a quick accent on tonic chord. “No! Otro tono ...”... I went through the entire chord scale until I found the damn chord he wanted. After learning the whole 14 minute dance, we do a run through, I missed ONE Corte and the guy stopped us and told the director “next time I must bring my own guitarist”.
First, that is absolutely insane. The dancer sounds like a pretentious pr**k.
Are there any norms or limits in the tradition concerning what a dancer (or singer, for that matter) can demand from an accompanying guitarist?
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Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: For those who do not like el cante (in reply to machopicasso)
quote:
Are there any norms or limits in the tradition concerning what a dancer (or singer, for that matter) can demand from an accompanying guitarist?
Yes, like I said, whoever is supplying the pay check is usually the boss. Also, it might be the case that age presides over experience. In most cases the professional guitarists will simply “do as they are told” first by the dancer, and next by the singer. In some more rare cases a special “guest” will be invited to a performance and they will be “allowed” to do whatever they want, or even make suggestions to the group (if not a dancer I mean). I have been such a “guest” on occasion and it’s great lol! There are cases where the person or people in charge might be open minded and invite collaborations, but in my experience those people are rare. I find that the vast majority of the issue is the dancers have a certain music in their head, and this was either created by themselves mentally, or stolen from a show they saw, OR, most often, from working with a DIFFERENT guitarist. The very intelligent dancers will pre-empt any rehearsal with perhaps a video or audio of the exact music they want a new guitarist to learn which saves A LOT of headache for everybody involved. But 9 out of 10 times they want the new guitarist to “figure it out” either exactly or get as close as possible to the insanity going on in their heads.
Of course there exceptions to all this if the group of artists are all peers of the same age group and experience...in that case it becomes very collaborative. There are many cases of husband wife combos where the more experienced one will TRY to direct the other, and well, you can imagine how that goes. .
At the opposite end of the extreme example I gave, you guys can check out Fanny Ara in 2009 Solea that I am accompanying. That was performed with zero rehearsal, the music was basically improvised and she adapted her choreography to that in the moment. She told us (verbally, no run through) about the llamada in the beginning and that was all really, so you can see how that type of thing unfolds live. Surprisingly it is way less nerve racking for everybody involved this way. But in my experience those type of dancers are rare, or rather, they will maybe do that for a “tablao” show, but never a theatre show. And the vast majority CAN’T do that at all.
Also my album live in Fresno was with zero rehearsal. He expects me to follow his cante nothing more. Some singers won’t do that, they want to practice some special things, almost always though they are lower level or modern, ie not traditional. There is also an intermediate breed of dancer that is considered relatively lower level that has a small group of set choreographies that are very old traditional based and they stick to them like religion and of course you don’t even need to rehearse with these people. So the major headache I have been alluding to really involves the pre show rehearsal situations where the main dancer(s) want to present something unique. It can also occur in a workshop/dance class format.
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From: San Francisco
RE: For those who do not like el cante (in reply to machopicasso)
You don't even have to be a pro for this type of stuff to happen. I've been asked to play specific falsetas, and had to transpose them because they were played in a different key on the recordings-arriba to por medio for example. And I have been asked to do a picado at a certain section. Anyone who has played for artists above their level has suffered insults as well.
Frankly this culture was difficult for me to adapt to, and ultimately, helped enable me to leave it behind me.
I suppose it might be similar to playing for a jazz singer-they expect you to know the tunes and be able to transpose on the fly. Also hear when they are implying chord subs and supply the right chord. They are also often not musically literate. But I've never done that gig, so taking direction as to what to play from people who can't necessarily play was different.
The other thing is though they control the gig, some of them aren't that good at running a gig. I've usually had a day gig going, so early calls, long rehearsals, the trappings of playing in a theater instead of a club, added a huge amount of time to the commitment.
Having said that, it's a lot of fun to play for dance. You still have an incredible amount of freedom as to what you can play compared to a lot of gigs.
quote:
. You won’t ever know or experience it until you get good enough level to make it your living
quote:
ORIGINAL: machopicasso
quote:
As an extreme example one dancer told me “do a picado with me here” it was very awkward uncomfortable thing in context. Next I matched his move with rasgueado power chords “no, I want alzapua here”, then his shoulder comes up, boink...I do a quick accent on tonic chord. “No! Otro tono ...”... I went through the entire chord scale until I found the damn chord he wanted. After learning the whole 14 minute dance, we do a run through, I missed ONE Corte and the guy stopped us and told the director “next time I must bring my own guitarist”.
First, that is absolutely insane. The dancer sounds like a pretentious pr**k.
Are there any norms or limits in the tradition concerning what a dancer (or singer, for that matter) can demand from an accompanying guitarist?
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