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RE: Cultural appropriation
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devilhand
Posts: 1598
Joined: Oct. 15 2019
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 RE: Cultural appropriation (in reply to Richard Jernigan)
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Taken from the blogspot I've found recently. He writes pretty cool stuff in his blog with audio examples.
http://memoriaflamenca.blogspot.com/
Here are 2 interesting posts I translated into english using google.
Who can sing flamenco?
As I published on August 1, in the fall of 1969, Paco Almazán had asked the question What is cante? to 10 famous flamenco artists of the time, answers that appeared in Triunfo magazine on 10-18-1969. He had made them others. For example this:
Who can sing flamenco? A Galician, a gypsy, an Andalusian payo, a poor man, a rich man? Read what our artists said.
Pepe el de la Matrona : Anyone who is not mute or deaf. The doll cannot be sung by an Andalusian. The Basques have a privilege for choirs. Italian opera is written, but flamenco has no written music. We Andalusians only have in our heads the music that the mother who brought us into the world put into our heads.
Bernardo el de los Lobitos : The one born with it. A Galician? ... I have heard a Moor in Tetouan.
Francisco Mairena : The Andalusian feels it more than anyone else.
Manolo Caracol : Everyone who has conditions, sweetheart. Or maybe he's born singing.
Antonio Mairena : (We don't have an answer, but his teaching on Menese seems to confirm that, in addition to gypsies, a payo can sing that intends to sound like a gypsy.)
Rafael Romero : Anyone from any corner of Andalusia. Juan Barea is the only case of singers. Dancing and guitar is something else. There you have Sabicas, Montoya, Trini Borrull.
Juan Barea : First you have to have that way of feeling and an excessive hobby. You learn one thing that you later see was wrong. You have to start over many times.
Antonio Núñez "Chocolate" : We are human, the same above as below. Let's see, whoever is given a command grows!
Enrique Morente : The gypsies and the Andalusians. And exceptionally others who have to go to Andalusia to experience it. Like the case of Barea.
José Menese : Flamenco has undoubtedly come from the poor.
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Say No to Fuera de Compás!!!
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Date Sep. 6 2020 23:49:19
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devilhand
Posts: 1598
Joined: Oct. 15 2019
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RE: Cultural appropriation (in reply to devilhand)
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Payos and gypsies
Francisco Almazán Marcos ( Paco Almazán ), teacher of qualifications and profession, broke into Triunfo magazine with an important article ( El cante del pueblo ) published on September 11, 1969. He extended it to the following week and in this second installment brought together 10 cantaores (five gypsies, five non-gypsies) who were subjected to three questions. The answers to the first one ( What is cante? ) Were published on the 1st of this month. On the 7th, we gave them the answers to the second question ( Who can sing flamenco? ). This was the third:
Is there a gypsy cante and a non-gypsy Andalusian cante? If so, does it produce more emotion, does one have more artistic value than the other?
Read what 10 artists said:
Pepe el de la Matrona : All this is Juan and Manuela. What is needed is heart and knowing how to sing. There have been many gypsies who have left things behind in the history of cante; but not all. As there have been Andalusians who have also left things; but not all. There are those who sing well and those who sing badly.
Bernardo el de los Lobitos : Say that the following happened to Lobito: "He was singing with a gypsy and he said <We have to sing a gypsy!> And one who was in front answered: <What is that of singing a gypsy ? I know how to sing well and sing badly. Let's see, let them tell me what gypsy singing is. Scream? ... That's not singing. Now, everything has its moment.> "
Francisco Mairena : The gypsy sings something and the payo does not sing it like the gypsy. The cantes de Levante ... What do you want me to tell you? Those mining cantes are also imposed, but with a different feeling.
Manolo Caracol : There is no payo or gypsy cante. There are those who have a "pellizco" and those who do not.
Antonio Mairena : (We do not have this answer, but Antonio Mairena is co-author, with R. Molina, of a book, "Mundo y forma del cante", in which the question is exposed. In any case, his position is known in defense of his.)
Rafael Romero : They can both sing well; but there are more cases among the gypsies.
Juan Barea : One can produce the same emotion as another, if God has given it to them, because it is a matter of nature. Most of the gypsies in that way of feeling, I think so. From the moment they are born, in their homes and families, they begin to clap their hands. Others have other customs and those who like to interpret may have more difficulty.
Antonio Núñez "Chocolate" : To the non-payos ..., how would I say, God has given them their culture. They do like this, three times four, and to the Moon. Instead, God has given us this little cante thing ...
Enrique Morente : Generally, the gypsies; but that does not mean that there are cases of artists who penetrate as much as the gypsy or more. In another way of feeling, in another race, of course.
José Menese : If the cante doesn't sound like a gypsy, it can be thrown down the Ronda gorge. With a particularity, that there are clowns that clowns like. It takes ringing and you are going to see it tonight.
_____________________________
Say No to Fuera de Compás!!!
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Date Sep. 7 2020 0:24:56
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Steelhead
Posts: 89
Joined: Nov. 20 2014
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RE: Cultural appropriation (in reply to Richard Jernigan)
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If anyone is interested in more academic verbiage about “cultural appropriation,” I published a recent article “Musical Borrowings, Copyright, and the Canard of 'Cultural Appropriation', endeavoring to dismantle the notion. It’s accessible only by purchase or institutional access but I can send to anyone interested. The abstract is pasted here. Essentially, I concluded that there is no way one can offer a rigorous definition of “cultural appropriation” without asserting that it is unethical for me to cook spaghetti. Hence articles, blogs etc that use the term tend to be laden with innuendo and implication, as if the authors know that they can’t make a solid case for why a black woman can’t dance Irish, or Iggy Azalea can’t rap in “blaccent,” or I can’t use chopsticks.
<<This essay reviews the basic contours of the cultural appropriation controversies as they have been waged in reference to music in both academic and vernacular circles. It discusses some of the debates that have involved white performers’ musical borrowings from African American culture, and also musical flows outside the Euro-American mainstream. It explores relations of these ethical polemics to notions of copyright and argues that the latter can provide a moral guide to the propriety of many cultural interactions. It further critiques the terminological and conceptual distortions and obfuscations that have tended to plague discussions, both on scholarly and popular levels. These problems are evident in the very notion of “cultural appropriation,” which can be seen to emerge as a confused attempt to reconcile the anxiety generated by hegemonic borrowings, on the one hand, with the inevitability and ultimate desirability of cultural flows on the other.>>
Now then, on another topic, though on the same thread, I must beg to differ with Ricardo regarding the “pre-historical” fandango:
<<I have yet to see evidence in any form of what we know is “fandango” today, meaning the rigid harmonic structure and phrasing, existing before the first recordings of Malagueñas and such on the first wax cylinders. The baroque music that claims to be related, even by name, is not related at all by any important musical specific. The Scarlatti fandango has a bit of a solea falseta in it.>>
For one thing, in El Murciano’s 1840s “Rondeña,” the copla section is in clear fandango form (“Los ojos de mi morena”). Castro Buendía notices a fandango in a 1754 dance manual of Minguet y Yrol with the copla moving from the Dm-A ritornello to the standard F-Bb-F-C—at which point the next page is lost, but one strongly suspects that the ”textbook” F-Bb-A is following. In general I think it’s useful to look at the fandango, historically, as having two components—the Dm-A (por medio) ritornello/entrecopla—and the copla, with the fandango chords. In different “fandangos” over the centuries, these have different degrees of import. The fandangos of Soler and Máximo López are mostly ritornellos, but with short “copla”-like excursions in relative major. But I think Ricardo (who we know is incredibly erudite) knows all this.
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Steelhead
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Date Apr. 25 2022 14:57:44
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Ricardo
Posts: 14797
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: Cultural appropriation (in reply to Steelhead)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Steelhead
Now then, on another topic, though on the same thread, I must beg to differ with Ricardo regarding the “pre-historical” fandango:
<<I have yet to see evidence in any form of what we know is “fandango” today, meaning the rigid harmonic structure and phrasing, existing before the first recordings of Malagueñas and such on the first wax cylinders. The baroque music that claims to be related, even by name, is not related at all by any important musical specific. The Scarlatti fandango has a bit of a solea falseta in it.>>
For one thing, in El Murciano’s 1840s “Rondeña,” the copla section is in clear fandango form (“Los ojos de mi morena”). Castro Buendía notices a fandango in a 1754 dance manual of Minguet y Yrol with the copla moving from the Dm-A ritornello to the standard F-Bb-F-C—at which point the next page is lost, but one strongly suspects that the ”textbook” F-Bb-A is following. In general I think it’s useful to look at the fandango, historically, as having two components—the Dm-A (por medio) ritornello/entrecopla—and the copla, with the fandango chords. In different “fandangos” over the centuries, these have different degrees of import. The fandangos of Soler and Máximo López are mostly ritornellos, but with short “copla”-like excursions in relative major. But I think Ricardo (who we know is incredibly erudite) knows all this.
Yes, well my comment quote above was summer of 2020, mid pandemic. I learned a lot since then, and have read numerous “scholarly” papers on the subject. The Minguet y Yrol partial evidence I will have to take your word for it, however, since pages are missing I don’t see it as very valuable in comparison to the Maximo Lopez Fandango which has no date, but considering his death in 1820’s it is safe to assume the piece was written or conceived of close enough to the 1750-1800 window that we can admit there must have already existed the basis of the flamenco version:
http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=332747&appid=&p=&mpage=1&key=lopez%2Ccopla&tmode=&smode=&s=#332784
The issue I have with the above, if you read my interpretation, is that the ritornellos are clearly Minor key, not Phrygian based, and the copla of Fandango is done or focused on as the “glorious triumphant purpose” of the Fandango form in Flamenco, whereas the classical music/dance seems to be about meandering “falsetas”. It is either “fakemenco” (I suspect as much), or the Gitanos took that silly little copla and for reasons unknown expanded it into the Glorious 2/3 of the flamenco tree (far fetched). In addition to the above I was quite impressed with the collection of Eduardo Ocón, giving hard evidence of several flamenco structures in play by the 1860s (time of gathering the collection long before publication in 1874), including not only Soleá and Fandango, but the derivative concepts of Malagueña, Granaina (with these, the Rondeña and Muriciana chord charts), the Caña (swapped title for the Polo), Tanguillo, and Sevillanas. A familiar nana is in there, and conspicuously absent, the Siguiriyas. I have also tried keeping up with Castro Buendia’s work such as suggested by his massive Silverio Franconetti dissertation (3017 pages) where his conclusions tend to dispel many of the myths I have tried to address over the years. With exception that the timeline bar for the above song forms has moved way back from 1900 wax cylinder evidence to the 1860s (for certain) and likely 1800 (the scores taken with writings of Calderon and Borrow mainly for me, who admit the music they observe is much older than 1838), very little in regard to origins has come to light since the earliest “flamencology”. The general belief (I feel is very wrong) that this music just magically “came together” as if in some cultural soup of witches caldron that produced “flamenco” suddenly, thanks to 1.) gypsies and 2) time, continues to prevail. If everybody just stops and thinks scientifically for one second, the structure is so clear that it must have an origin and with that, a REASON for holding its structure, just like Blues.
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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
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Date Apr. 26 2022 12:27:50
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