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RE: Cultural appropriation
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RobF
Posts: 1611
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
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 RE: Cultural appropriation (in reply to Paul Magnussen)
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I have a story to relate that falls within the boundaries of this topic as I’ve recently been involved in some discussions regarding appropriation with a Gitano player in Granada for whom I’m building a guitar. Due to some aspects of the build, we’ve had to give the issue some thought. The story is a little long though, so apologies in advance.
When we first started discussing the guitar at the conceptual stage he had a number of ideas for personalization, all which related to his heritage. Because of this, the concept of cultural appropriation came forward, I think I was the one who brought it up, and we discussed the implications. We ultimately agreed that any gypsy symbolism I might incorporate into the guitar could be considered acceptable because he was Gitano and the items were placed there at his request. We also agreed that I held the final say on the aesthetics of one of my instruments, and that I had the prerogative to over-ride or alter any request as I felt fit.
One of his requests was to write a phrase in Romani on the label. I wasn’t against the idea, but after I showed him a sample of my handwriting we agreed it might be better if I discretely wrote it on the inside of the top, a hidden message, so to speak. This was done, although one would need a mirror to see it.
Next he wanted the star and moon of Camarón inlayed into the headstock. I said no, in part because I didn’t want to be accused of copying from one of Andy’s recent builds. I said I’d consider inlaying it on the heel cap, but wasn’t sure. We finally agreed to discard the idea, as he could tell I didn’t really want to do it.
Then he hoped I could somehow inlay the Bandera de los Gitanos somewhere on the guitar. I liked that idea quite a bit and could visualize a couple of ways to do it. First, I had really liked the way John Ray had done the border for the rosette of a flamenco guitar he recently built and posted here on the Foro, so I thought I’d try my hand at using his technique in the border of the rosette for this guitar. I spent quite a few days working on it and finally had a purfling strip containing multiple miniature flags alternating with black squares bordered in white, all side grain, basically done in the style of John’s border. It was a great learning experience but, problem was, when I inlayed it into a mock-up rosette it reminded me too much of a string of flags not unlike what can be seen dangling from the bleachers in stadiums during games of fútbol. So, we had a conference call and I explained it was a no go, but I had an idea for the rosette that abstracted the flag throughout its design that I wanted to try.
So, now that the flag was going to be abstracted into the rosette, I thought that it might look nice if a truer representation was inlayed into the bone of the bridge tie block. I can still picture this in my mind, and it still looks great inside there, lol, but in practice after making a mock-up, I thought it was a little too blatant. So...another conference call, where I explained I would still include the Bandera in the tie block, but it would also be an abstraction.
Here’s the result. The bridge might look a little rough as it’s in the grain fill phase of French Polishing. I haven’t started polishing the guitar yet. When I showed this to the recipient he was happy, he saw what I was getting at right away, said it was “Muy Gitano”, and the matter was closed. The story continues after the picture intermission...
Now, this is where it gets interesting, at least to me.
A lot of this guitar borrows heavily from a 1934 Santos. The head design is one of my own, however, and the original intent and drawings I did for this particular head incorporated a ribbon hole, as seen on many old flamenco guitars, where a ribbon could be threaded through the hole so the guitar could be hung on the wall when not in use.
The abstracted rueda in the tie block is made of red jasper, which has a bunch of symbolism that the owner and I discussed. I thought inlaying a jasper dot where I was originally going to drill the ribbon hole could be a cool idea, and would balance with the wheel on the bridge. The thing was, on the day I attached the back to the guitar we had a little ceremony via video call where I placed my phone inside the guitar so he could say a few words to welcome his new instrument into the world. I noticed that during the blessing, he was holding a Hindu icon in one of his hands.
So, after mulling this over, another call, this time to discuss my concern that the inlayed red jasper dot in the head could also be interpreted to represent a Bindi, and was he comfortable with that? He has voyaged to India a number of times in the past, in part due the ancestral connection he feels exists between India and gitanos. We had a fairly involved discussion about this and still haven’t settled the matter. My original conception was more a nod to the history of the flamenco guitar rather than to any connection with India, so in many ways I think it’s a non-issue. His idea was to compromise by putting it on the back of the headstock, but I’m not sure I like the aesthetics of that. I’ll probably do a mock-up with it on the front and run it by him again before making any final decision. If we can’t come to something we both feel comfortable with, I just won’t do it, it’s kind of non-standard anyways.
I don’t really have much of an opinion concerning all this, beyond that my intent is to always try do the right thing, and even if I don’t always hit the mark dead on, at least try to follow my heart which, as we all know, is pure, and thus provides me with the strength of ten (I wish). The rosette and tie block are so abstracted that I don’t think it would occur to anyone, save possibly another gitano, that they represent gypsy iconography. Because of the abstraction, I don’t think it’s out of the question to use it on a guitar not intended for a gitano, but I’m still not sure I’d do so. One thing is certain, the decision wouldn’t be motivated by money, I simply don’t work that way. Probably, I’ll just end up doing what feels right to me. I’m kind of proud of the rosette and tie block, so I wouldn’t mind using the concept again. He has no problem with me doing that either, in fact, he suggested it.
What I’ve found interesting about this whole exercise is being able to have had sincere and involved discussions about appropriation with a member of a group that is often considered to be the victim of it, in particular the part of having to consider that the implication of representing a bindi on the guitar suggested the issue wasn’t necessarily a one way street.
The project is ongoing and I can hardly wait until this crisis is over so I can return. We’re planning to have a huge fiesta, lots of good food and cold cerveza, and for certain some great music, too. Some of the dancers in their social circle are originally from Mexico, so maybe we can convince them to contribute some recipes from there, too, as part of the feast. Cheers!
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Date Jul. 21 2020 3:38:46
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RobF
Posts: 1611
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
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RE: Cultural appropriation (in reply to Paul Magnussen)
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At any rate, the point of my post about the guitar was to try to show that awareness of the issue exists across cultural boundaries, and people are sensitive to the implications. People don’t like being typecast, regardless of their background, and the effects of members of one culture cherry-picking certain aspects of another culture and turning them into what amounts to be fashion statements does do real harm. It serves to dilute and is also insulting. And it isn’t just a colonial concept, IMO, things can go both ways.
I don’t know a huge amount of Gitano flamenco people, but the one’s I do know are modern Europeans who understand their culture and know their sh*t. If one of them wants to have discussions about appropriation with me, I tend to pay attention and try to learn. I don’t sit there classifying and defining the origins of flamenco to them as they already know that stuff, there’s plenty of people in their own ranks examining the roots of flamenco academically, and if it comes up in conversation I tend to listen and appreciate the opportunity being afforded me to understand how something can be seen from a perspective other than my own. But, I also express my thoughts, otherwise there’s not a lot of point to it. I’m not a complete effing idiot, so I’m also bringing something to the table, and that does tend to be recognized.
I think I’ll remove my post and maybe move it to the Lutherie section. Maybe it was too personal to be put here. I don’t want to be attacked for something I do with sincerity and love.
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Date Jul. 21 2020 13:30:41
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: Cultural appropriation (in reply to chester)
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quote:
Funny Bill, since RobF's post disproved your point about "cultural appropriation originating in college campuses".
As a knave AND a fool I say -- get back to ironing your mustache.
Three points, Chester.
Rob's post describes how he and his Gitano friend worked together to determine how best to incorporate certain Gitano symbols, as well as whether or not the bindi found among Hindu women qualifies, into the design of the guitar, with an appreciation for Gitano culture. It is a contemporary work in progress. The phenomenon of "cultural appropriation" that gets some elements of US society wrapped around the axle has been around for several years, and, like "trigger-warnings," "safe spaces," and "micro-agressions," originated on college campuses and continues to flourish in academia, although its appeal appears to have widened beyond academia.
You may consider yourself a knave and a fool, although I have never considered you such. I have always appreciated your thoughts and ideas on flamenco and other topics. My reference to "knaves and fools" was in response to what I perceived Rob anticipated when he wrote: "I think I’ll remove my post and maybe move it to the Lutherie section. Maybe it was too personal to be put here. I don’t want to be attacked for something I do with sincerity and love." Yes, I think only a knave and a fool would attack Rob for expressing his genuine attempt to work with his Gitano friend to create something valuable, and from which each received satisfaction. And I think we have seen a few (very few, thankfully) Foro members mount ad hominem attacks and misrepresentations against those with whom they disagree.
Finally, I have both a mustache and a goatee, but as far as I am aware, only Agatha Christie's Hercule Poirot irons his mustache.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Jul. 21 2020 18:54:17
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Andy Culpepper
Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA
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RE: Cultural appropriation (in reply to RobF)
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Rob, that guitar looks really gorgeous. I love the fine detail.
When I made my most recent flamenca with the star and crescent sound port, I also thought about the fact that it might come off as a minor cultural appropriation. That’s why I’m careful to describe it with the term “inspired by” the story of the Roma migration from India, through the Middle East into Europe, rather than “telling” the story of that, because I don't feel that it's my story to tell. That said, I’ve been in love with flamenco and Gitano culture for half my life now, and I hope that guitar is seen as a sincere love letter to flamenco and Gitanos, because that’s what it is to me. It’s my “fan art” if you will.
_____________________________
Andy Culpepper, luthier
http://www.andyculpepper.com
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Date Jul. 22 2020 2:47:25
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Piwin
Posts: 3559
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
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RE: Cultural appropriation (in reply to tf10music)
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In French it's pretty hazy. Sometimes "Roma" is used as an umbrella term encompassing groups like Sinti and Calo. Sometimes it refers specifically to the Roma in Eastern Europe. In everyday usage, I know from experience that some Sinti take exception to being called Roma. If memory serves, part of the dislike is the association with certain Eastern European groups (really just an expression of the common xenophobia towards Eastern Europeans in Western Europe), and another is a rejection of certain political projects. After all, when you group them all under "Roma", you're never far from calling them "one nation without a country" or something like that. And you give them a flag, and symbols that not all of them recognize and some of them in fact hate.
Since Robf was talking about Granada, I know (or rather, I knew) a few places there where Roma (Eastern European) live. They're a good ways off from any of the Gitano neighborhoods. Based on what I've heard Gitanos say about them, I don't get the sense that they have any feeling of mutual belonging or shared "fate" with the Roma. Really, they just reinforced impression that Roma, as in Eastern European Roma, is the absolute lowest rung in the social ladder in Western Europe. You can get in trouble for being racist towards any other group. All bets are off when it comes to the Roma. For Gitanos, I think the whole story of migrating from India matters as "mythology", but there's no (or very little) sense of real kinship with other groups related to that mythology, other than in some vague imaginary sense. Perhaps not dissimilar to the role Africa plays for some African-Americans, or really the role of any "country of origin" for any group in the US other than First Peoples.
_____________________________
"Anything you do can be fixed. What you cannot fix is the perfection of a blank page. What you cannot fix is that pristine, unsullied whiteness of a screen or a page with nothing on it—because there’s nothing there to fix."
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Date Jul. 22 2020 6:26:50
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Deniz
Posts: 91
Joined: Feb. 16 2020
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RE: Cultural appropriation (in reply to Richard Jernigan)
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As a person of both german and turkish kin I was always torn regarding this question..
.. my german heritage doesn't hold any music culture.. we have "Schlager" and "Volksmusik".. nothing that even remotly caught my interest. Most people are completly americanized regarding their music taste (and with many also regarding the rest of their lifestyle). Being born and raised in Cologne I could become a Carnival-musician..hooray..which is basically Schlager.
..my turkish heritage has some interesting traditional turkish music.. but these days kids love the "Turkish Pop" and - just as anywhere in the world - are mostly into the US and UK Pop, Rock and Hip Hop/Rap.
I dabbled and still am dabbling with the idea of "staying authentic" .. but what would be appropriate and authentic for me to do?
Become a Schlager """"musician"""" ?
Or a classical composer like Bach and Beethoven?
Make turkish music - albeit I don't even speak turkish nor know anything about that music?
Neither would be any authentic, because I don't have any connection to this music, besides it being the music of "my" culture(s).
Follow the flock and start a band to play the recently fashionable form of rock music? (I guess it's Metal these days, which I absolutely do not like)
Or become a fancy-face-tattooed Rapper, sipping purple cough-syrup, babbling about "money and hoes"?
I do f.e. love the psychedelic and progressive music of the 60s and 70s.. should I make a band like that.. raggling in nostalgia? Would I be any authentic playing the music of my fathers generation - which my father didn't even listen to?
So.. what's "my" musical culture/background?
Furthermore.. I don't really feel particularly kin to the german nor the turkish culture. I experienced not being accepted by the turkish for not speaking the language (I heard "you're not a turkish" more than once in my life from turkish people) and neither being part of german culture.
Nope.. first of all I'm neither german nor turkish, I'm human (or so they say  ). The world is my home and the music played around the world is played by "my people". And I mean it as I say it.. I feel kin to all people that are open-hearted and trying to be good people. I feel kin to any music that strikes my heart.
Right now I'm trying to learn something from my Andalucian brothers, who play wonderful music! Before I was soaking up the classical-influenced music of UK Progressive Rock. And before that I had a period where I fell in love with some of the US's Country music. And before that it was Folk music from around the world...and before that I was into UK Indie bands.. and before that..and before that..
Reminds me of Paco de Lucia quoting some composer whose name I can't remember right now, but it goes something like:
"All musician influence one another.. and we 'geniuses'.. we simply steal" and Paco goes on saying "and that's what you have to to.. listen to everything and make it yours!"
..and hopefully you will come up with music that spawns from your heart directly. What could be more authenthic than that?
I don't see it that much as "stealing" or "appropriating", but moreso as being open-minded and open-eared, trying to learn any new (musical-)language I can, so the (music of the) world will become my home one day.
I could never come up with the same kind of toque an andalucian born would - how could I ever?! But I'll come up with a toque that's influenced by my life and my personal musical influenced I gathered and hopefully one day I can see myself as a "good musician" - regardless of any genre!
..but what do I know, after all I'm just young and naive I suppose 
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Date Jul. 22 2020 9:57:00
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: Cultural appropriation (in reply to El Burdo)
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El Burdo, don't flatter yourself by thinking you were the sole example I was thinking of when commenting in this thread. Over the years, up to the present time, there have been three or four examples. As I wrote, there have been few (very few, thankfully) such members on the Foro. And your ad hominem attacks not only have been against me. Take a look at some of your posts where you personally attacked others with whom you disagreed.
Your post above has so many errors and misrepresentations of my positions on various issues that they are too numerous to name here. Just two examples will suffice, as they exemplify much of your post. One, I, too, believe in "cultural rights," which is a very different thing than mounting a charge of "cultural appropriation": and I have never owned a gun in my life. Two, I did not have you in mind at all in responding to Rob's post about working with his Gitano friend on the guitar. I suggested that anyone mocking Rob for his post was a knave and a fool, but that you think I was referring to you demonstrates something in your own psyche.
Again, You would do well by challenging opinions and ideas with your own opinions and ideas instead of mounting personal attacks against those with whom you disagree.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Jul. 22 2020 14:10:09
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