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Sometimes I think Devilhand is really a knowledgeable flamenco guitarist who is just Fu%Kin^ with us. Other times I think he is that guy who wants an explanation for everything but never absorbs the essential elements of his inquiries. I guess he's good for increasing traffic on the foro either way. I kinda wish Ricardo would send him an invoice. A large one.
Mark,
More then once I thought to myself, is DH really a Bananna San sock puppet ;)
Regardless every family has all kinds and unless you break the wrong rules I'll let anyone be. If I find a comment problematic, just plain rude, or trollish I just don't reply. My time is too valuable (says he who has been on his back for damn near three months with a fubared foot)
I have found more then a few of DH's extended threads to have extracted info from others that has informed and challenged my musical knowledge. I'll take the good with the bad, water flowers when I toss the bath water rather then pour down the sewer as it were.
Without dissing or webmaster keeper of the markup, I think a PM here and there might keep us all in compas, you know, instead of wasting to much of our energy in sycopation.
HR
_____________________________
I prefer my flamenco guitar spicy, doesn't have to be fast, should have some meat on the bones, can be raw or well done, as long as it doesn't sound like it's turning green on an elevator floor.
RE: Syncopation in flamenco (in reply to ernandez R)
quote:
is DH really a Bananna San sock puppet
Calling the mistro of the hand con heavy D (your terminology) a sock puppet is to do him a disservice, IMO. The man is quite capable of wreaking havoc all on his own. It’s a special talent. If Ricardo et.al. found the questions to be truly bothersome, however, they know they’re under no obligation to respond. But they do respond, and often in great detail, so clearly no harm is being done. And, as you say, a lot can be learned from these discussions.
For the most part, I find it all to be just good natured ribbing and entertaining stuff, so no complaints from me. I don’t think anyone takes it very seriously, at least I hope not. Piwin will come around, he’s one of the Foro’s positive forces and isn’t likely to stay mad for long.
RE: Syncopation in flamenco (in reply to devilhand)
FWIW, my functional-if-incorrect definition of syncopation is "cross-cutting rhythms that cause you to feel the rhythm to be temporarily in another time signature, that may or may not resolve at the bar line, but is way cooler when it walks that false rhythm as long as possible and is most cool when it resolves at a bar line somewhere"
If it's a 2-based meter, or pretends to be, then pushing 3's over it. If it's a 3-based meter, or pretends to be, then pushing 2's over it.
If it's divisible by both then either is correct, so it's about the context prior to the change up.
To me, a 12-count Buleria can be reduced to 4 bars of 3/4 for the most basic novice noobie to understand. or 2 bars of 6/8, but it could also be 3 bars of 4/4 or 6 bars of 2/4 (divide/multiply tempo by 2 as necessary to fit the same sound/feel) The most basic "proper" Buleria will shift that flow inside of one bar, typically emphasizing the 3 count for the first half and the 2 count for the second half. To me, syncopation is obviously present directly in the Buleria format, not even as an added component that anyone had to invent or bring to it. Its part and parcel to the number 12.
common denominators 2 and 3 both.
the most basic example of syncopation i can think of: N**N**N**N**N**N is a bar of 4/4 16th notes in which the N represents the syncopated cross-rhythm and this doesn't resolve at the bar line, so you quickly understand that you are not actually in a 3-count land, but in a 2-count land. That's as far as most "western" "funky" music tends to go, in terms of parts of this simple bar outlined above being plugged-into a the groove.
A lot of West African drumming involves moving in and out of 3 and 2 counts in a similar rolling 12-count basis, and many times layering them on top of each other to great effect.
Why bring up notation? Simply to point out that the map is not the territory. Notating West African drumming will result in differing notations as people use different tools from notation to try to capture "reality".
RE: Syncopation in flamenco (in reply to aaron peacock)
quote:
FWIW, my functional-if-incorrect definition of syncopation is "cross-cutting rhythms that cause you to feel the rhythm to be temporarily in another time signature, that may or may not resolve at the bar line, but is way cooler when it walks that false rhythm as long as possible and is most cool when it resolves at a bar line somewhere"
Is there a difference between syncopation and polyrhythm? I always thought syncopation was a way of pushing or pulling the beat within the established time signature, rather than the implication of a continual shift in signature or of a separate stream overlaid over the fundamental one. Does a polyrhythm even have a fundamental signature? Or are the two terms synonymous?
Maestro D asked me to ask this stuff (OK, OK, I’m asking on my own, he probably already knows the answers. I don’t.)
*edit* it looks like Ricardo might have already answered my question in his second post to this thread. I also googled it and found one place where they described the pushing or pulling as groove, but I always just thought of it as syncopation. Perhaps incorrectly. James Brown and Bootsy Collins were adamant that a funk groove required strongly anchoring to the one, so maybe the site calling it groove is just full of caca.
ORIGINAL: RobF James Brown and Bootsy Collins were adamant that a funk groove required strongly anchoring to the one, so maybe the site calling it groove is just full of caca.
"Groove" is like "compas" or "soniquette". It's surprising that a person who quotes bootsy collins and who's avatar is segovia blasting out of a couple of marshall stacks needs to look up what a groove is.
quote:
To me, syncopation is obviously present directly in the Buleria format, not even as an added component that anyone had to invent or bring to it.
I agree completely -- "when has syncopation started in flamenco" seems like "when did flamenco start"?
quote:
FWIW, my functional-if-incorrect definition of syncopation is "cross-cutting rhythms that cause you to feel the rhythm to be temporarily in another time signature
I think I see what you're saying with the whole 2 and 3 stuff, you can boil everything down to groups of 2s and 3s and mixing them up will cause syncopations.
While it's an interesting way to look at things, it's a little more of an advanced concept than what I said about emphasizing a non-down beat - don't you think? But I think we're saying the same thing.
quote:
the most basic example of syncopation i can think of: N**N**N**N**N**N is a bar of 4/4 16th notes in which the N represents the syncopated cross-rhythm and this doesn't resolve at the bar line, so you quickly understand that you are not actually in a 3-count land, but in a 2-count land.
"syncopated cross-rhythm"? You mean the accents? I don't see how this is in "3 count land" since the last N doesn't have two asterisks after it? I'm having trouble interpreting it since it's a long string of Ns and *s, but the last N seems like it would pull to the 1 so what do you mean "doesn't resolve at the bar line"?
How's this for basic - the "and" of the 2 is "syncopated" ie emphasized without being a downbeat/number. Try tapping the numbers and saying the asterisks. It's as simple as that!
It's surprising that a person who quotes bootsy collins and who's avatar is segovia blasting out of a couple of marshall stacks needs to look up what a groove is
You’re misconstruing, buddy. I was looking up how syncopation relates to polyrhythm and this cat’s site popped up. I know what groove is, I got the Funk.
RE: Syncopation in flamenco (in reply to devilhand)
quote:
I'd rather be a world class flamenco guitarist than a knowledgeable flamenco guitarist.
I think when you first started posting here you said something to the effect that you had no interest in going to Spain as part of your Flamenco odyssey. I might be confusing you with someone else, but I think it was you. No matter, if it’s at all possible for you to make it happen, going there would be the logical next step for you. You need to hear and feel the rhythm of everyday life in Andalusia, the lilts and mannerisms. That stuff punches well past technical dissections. To me, that’s where the essence is to be found, in everyday life. You have to eat the food and drink the water. I think you’ll love it there and it will change how you approach your journey.
I don’t doubt your sincerity in this, at all.
P.S. there are quite a few Foro members who live there, so you might be able to meet up with some of them, too, which could also be fun.
I think when you first started posting here you said something to the effect that you had no interest in going to Spain as part of your Flamenco odyssey. I might be confusing you with someone else, but I think it was you. No matter, if it’s at all possible for you to make it happen, going there would be the logical next step for you. You need to hear and feel the rhythm of everyday life in Andalusia, the lilts and mannerisms. That stuff punches well past technical dissections. To me, that’s where the essence is to be found, in everyday life. You have to eat the food and drink the water. I think you’ll love it there and it will change how you approach your journey.
I would so like to be a fly-on-the-wall if/when Devilhazard finally makes it to Spain. Telling Andalucian flamenco's they are confused about hemiola, syncopation, out of compas, whatever could be really interesting!
FWIW I have always thought of "syncopation" in terms of contratiempo, so something off the beat.
Playing 3 over 2 or 2 over 3 I have always labelled as "cross-rhythm".
And I have always thought of "Hemiola" in terms of alternating 2 and 3 as in Guajira or Siguiriya.
It's vaguely interesting to hear that other people define them in different ways, or have expanded definitions but it hasn't made any difference to my understanding or feeling or playing any of those things....
I don't know exactly how old this is, or whether he got the idea from Niño Ricardo, but here is an old recording of Pepe Martinez playing cross-rhythm/syncopation por Bulerías at 1:10
EDIT: I think the above recording is "Fiesta en Triana" from 1960
RE: Syncopation in flamenco (in reply to mark indigo)
quote:
ORIGINAL: mark indigo
quote:
quote:
It's vaguely interesting
are you laughing with me or at me?!
With you. It's a Ramzi/rombsix-type post I always assumed he was laughing with me when he did it at my posts; was he actually laughing AT ME this whole time??
Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Syncopation in flamenco (in reply to mark indigo)
quote:
I don't know exactly how old this is, or whether he got the idea from Niño Ricardo, but here is an old recording of Pepe Martinez playing cross-rhythm/syncopation por Bulerías at 1:10
Considering he quotes sabicas, and I’m familiar with n ricardo similar falsetas, although done like the solea as horquilla, I would say he got the idea from Ricardo of course. Probably a direct quote. Sabicas also quoted, in one buleria, montoya and niño ricardo, and the same falseta I heard Martinez do. So in that regard it’s hard to say who did it first, Pepe or Sabicas. I’d be interested to know. But for sure, in this example, queen of the Gypsies (1958?) predates pepes recording (1962).
in this example, queen of the Gypsies (1958?) predates pepes recording (1962).
I found the source of the video Pepe Martinez bulerias - it is actually titled "Fiesta en Triana" recorded in 1960 (but Sabicas still earlier if 1958 - but not far off!). Tried to add in an edit to that effect before your reply, but for some reason it didn't stick first go.
I think when you first started posting here you said something to the effect that you had no interest in going to Spain as part of your Flamenco odyssey. I might be confusing you with someone else, but I think it was you.
You're definitely confusing me with someone else.
quote:
I always thought syncopation was a way of pushing or pulling the beat within the established time signature, rather than the implication of a continual shift in signature or of a separate stream overlaid over the fundamental one. Does a polyrhythm even have a fundamental signature? Or are the two terms synonymous?
Your definition of syncopation is correct. Syncopation and polyrhythm are not the same thing. I think time signature for polyrhythm is based on the underlying pulse. For example in 3:2 polyrhythm, basic pulse has 2 beats. So the time signature can be 2/4, 4/4 or 6/8.
@markindigo
quote:
And I have always thought of "Hemiola" in terms of alternating 2 and 3 as in Guajira or Siguiriya.
Forget about hemiola. I like the 5 beat explanation of Siguiriya. As you know compas of Guajira is the same as Solea except for the accents. The accents fall on the 1st beat meaning that you can start from 12 instead of 1 on flamenco clock.
RE: Syncopation in flamenco (in reply to devilhand)
quote:
quote:
I think when you first started posting here you said something to the effect that you had no interest in going to Spain as part of your Flamenco odyssey. I might be confusing you with someone else, but I think it was you.
You're definitely confusing me with someone else.
I remembered you saying something to that effect.
quote:
Your definition of syncopation is correct.
I find myself often wondering what authority you think qualifies you to make such statements.
quote:
Forget about hemiola.
what? is that an order? who do you thinkyou are? you are just so rude.
quote:
As you know compas of Guajira is the same as Solea except for the accents.
only in a really superficial way, like when it's translated as numbers. If/when you actually play the music the feel is totally different.
I'm so fed up of being lectured at by a total ignoranus noob. I haven't been on the foro so much the last week or so... i just can't decide whether to sign out for a while or hit the green button...
RE: Syncopation in flamenco (in reply to devilhand)
quote:
Forget about hemiola. I like the 5 beat explanation of Siguiriya.
Why on earth would hemiola and the modern 5 beat compás interpretation of the seguiriya be mutually exclusive? I think that any substantive difference you're hearing that sways you exclusively toward the 5-beat explanation has to do with the fact that the seguiriya tends to be played at a slower tempo now than it used to be, so it's easier for you to count that way. It has very little to do with what's actually happening in the music. Chew on this Vallejo-Montoya performance:
In any case, I think the impulse to rigidly categorize everything is related to the classicist impulse to mathematize everything. It's a bad habit, particularly when most of the people who are playing the music aren't themselves thinking in those terms. Like, what is the use in trying to give a polyrhythm a unified time signature? In the end, you're just trying to create a new blueprint to follow that will supplant the two different schema that are overlaid atop one another. If you're intent on conceptualizing this stuff, I suggest you take a look at Christopher Hasty's "Meter as Rhythm." Here's a short review of it: https://mtosmt.org/issues/mto.98.4.4/mto.98.4.4.roeder.html
Per Hasty, instead of trying to subordinate flamenco into all these categories from the outset so that it becomes an instruction manual version of itself, we should really be thinking about the way an arrangement of beats (which he understands as the initiation of an event) plays with anticipation and cultivates tension in the listener, and how we can mess around with that. Because that's what good flamenco guitarists are doing: they're playing around with what is there, with what they have internalized (despite the fact that, in many cases, they have not schematized it). In flamenco, "pellizco" has a lot to do with this stuff -- it's about timing and a sense of occasion, not hammering out the numbers. For me, the greatest struggle beyond my still-subpar technique is learning when is the right time to make a decision: when to ramp up the tension and when let it go, when to build anticipation versus the proper moment to cash in on it.
And look, I'm not saying that wrapping one's head around these rigid categorizations that you're always trying to make is a bad thing per se -- but fixating on them certainly is.
RE: Syncopation in flamenco (in reply to devilhand)
quote:
quote:
I think when you first started posting here you said something to the effect that you had no interest in going to Spain as part of your Flamenco odyssey. I might be confusing you with someone else, but I think it was you.
You're definitely confusing me with someone else.
quote:
One doesn't need a trip to Spain to get inspiration. It's just down there on Youtube.
I might remember what Rob is thinking of.. this was a thread where someone was saying they didn’t care about spanish culture or something like but wanted to lean flamenco.
I might remember what Rob is thinking of.. this was a thread where someone was saying they didn’t care about spanish culture or something like but wanted to lean flamenco.
I think RobF must have confused me with this guy. I don't wear sunglasses when I play guitar. But when I do push ups I wear sunglasses though.
RE: Syncopation in flamenco (in reply to tf10music)
quote:
Why on earth would hemiola and the modern 5 beat compás interpretation of the seguiriya be mutually exclusive?
I didn't mean they're exclusive. Looks like Hemiola is just another way of looking at 12 beat compas. Honestly, for explaining 12 beat flamenco compas we don't need a fancy term like hemiola. I'm pretty sure other people on the foro will second that.
quote:
Per Hasty, instead of trying to subordinate flamenco into all these categories from the outset so that it becomes an instruction manual version of itself, we should really be thinking about the way an arrangement of beats (which he understands as the initiation of an event) plays with anticipation and cultivates tension in the listener, and how we can mess around with that. Because that's what good flamenco guitarists are doing: they're playing around with what is there, with what they have internalized (despite the fact that, in many cases, they have not schematized it). In flamenco, "pellizco" has a lot to do with this stuff -- it's about timing and a sense of occasion, not hammering out the numbers. For me, the greatest struggle beyond my still-subpar technique is learning when is the right time to make a decision: when to ramp up the tension and when let it go, when to build anticipation versus the proper moment to cash in on it.
And look, I'm not saying that wrapping one's head around these rigid categorizations that you're always trying to make is a bad thing per se -- but fixating on them certainly is.
I know what you mean. But for a beginner rigid categorization you mentioned above is essential to understand what's going on. If one enters a new music genre one has to learn to feel the underlying beats first. In flamenco we have this rhythmic framework 12 beat compas. To orientate within 12 beat compas we have to deal with numbers and rules. There's no other way or a shortcut.
I don't know what you mean by the arrangement of beats. The subdivision of beats? The subdivision of beats (quarter notes) down to 8th, 16th and 32th notes offers a wide range of choices we can mess around with so that we can improvise and interpret music in many ways. It includes everything you mentioned like timing, rest, syncopation, tension, articulation etc. Again, this is essential for our understanding first. What can happen after that is a different story I guess because I have a long way to go. One thing is for sure, until then one has to listen to a lot of flamenco. But not blindly. I mean listening to flamenco and at the same time knowing what's really going on is important.
RE: Syncopation in flamenco (in reply to devilhand)
quote:
I know what you mean. But for a beginner rigid categorization you mentioned above is essential to understand what's going on. If one enters a new music genre one has to learn to feel the underlying beats first. In flamenco we have this rhythmic framework 12 beat compas. To orientate within 12 beat compas we have to deal with numbers and rules. There's no other way or a shortcut.
I don't know what you mean by the arrangement of beats. The subdivision of beats? The subdivision of beats (quarter notes) down to 8th, 16th and 32th notes offers a wide range of choices we can mess around with so that we can improvise and interpret music in many ways. It includes everything you mentioned like timing, rest, syncopation, tension, articulation etc. Again, this is essential for our understanding first. What can happen after that is a different story I guess because I have a long way to go. One thing is for sure, until then one has to listen to a lot of flamenco. But not blindly. I mean listening to flamenco and at the same time knowing what's really going on is important.
In my opinion, the best way to internalize docetiempo is to sit across from a guitarist who already has it mastered and play along with them. I spent a while trying to keep up with the numbers, but eventually I realized that it's more about anticipation, projection and feel...internalizing the 12 beat compás isn't primarily about the numbers. This is particularly true of bulerías, in my opinion. I can play in 12, in 3s, etc, etc, by myself, but it never sounds quite right when I make those decisions (not yet, anyways). The key is knowing how it's supposed to sound, which is something that I've only been able to learn by sitting across someone and being forced to follow along. That's how you organically go back and forth between these understandings -- which, again, is about feel and anticipation. I wish I'd started out in that kind of environment -- the time I spent trying to learn on my own caused me to develop all kinds of bad habits.
I'm not really talking about subdivision of beats so much as the way they initiate time when they happen and, in their patterning, generate anticipation by projecting out over a possible future. But honestly, the Hasty stuff is probably a bit too abstract for this discussion...I just wanted to show that there are very technically-minded theoretical musicologists who recognize the limitations of rigid categorization and are trying to think their way around it.
Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Syncopation in flamenco (in reply to tf10music)
quote:
internalizing the 12 beat compás isn't primarily about the numbers. This is particularly true of bulerías, in my opinion. I can play in 12, in 3s, etc, etc, by myself, but it never sounds quite right when I make those decisions (not yet, anyways).
A part of the reason is because these forms are actually not “in 12”. The math of 12 is a common emergent property of the compas patterns of those forms. Inevitably students who note its frequency (or worse, taught this as a rule) are shocked by the so called “half compas” phrases, not limited to but most common found in bulerias. Further more, the counting to 12 system is often employed by the dance class as a way to communicate choreographed structures to the musicians when necessary. Students often learn this easy communicative tool early on and again, adhere to it like it’s a rule. Some of these students get stuck in this world of NEVER feeling the rhythm properly and seriously become confused by the criticism they might receive from the higher ups. Buzz words enter the picture and confuse things, “that’s not the right soniquete”, or “you are lacking the pellizco here”, and worse, people start pointing you wrongly to specific towns in andalucia, as if if there is only one way to do it when you pass the city gates.
Other problems are the printed score versions done by transcribers used to making approximations when it comes to compas, but that is an entire other topic.
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I always assumed he was laughing with me when he did it at my posts; was he actually laughing AT ME this whole time?? 
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