Pulgar Index Revisited

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devilhand

Posts: 1598
Joined: Oct. 15 2019

Pulgar Index Revisited

Can I use P A or P M instead of pulgar index?
The following situation. I play pimami arpeggio on beat 1 and 2. What follows is the 8th note pulgar index on beat 3 (pulgar plays some bass string and index high E). Since my ring finger is floating right next to the high E string (basic arpeggio right hand position. Index on G, middle on B and ring finger on E string), it's for me easier to play that high E string with my ring finger. Should I stick with P I because it's the technique that exists and produces that flamenco tone? I haven't heard of P A or P M technique.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 7 2020 21:03:06

xirdneH_imiJ

Posts: 1890
Joined: Dec. 2 2006
From: Budapest, now in Southampton

RE: Pulgar Index Revisited (in reply to devilhand)

You can try that, but your ring finger won't produce the desired tone. Possibly you could be holding your right hand in a wrong way too.
For years I insisted on using Pam for rasgueado instead of Pai because I could do it faster, but that's all changed, the tone wasn't so good. All these techniques that "exist", exist for a reason.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 7 2020 21:33:53

Ricardo

Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Pulgar Index Revisited (in reply to devilhand)

quote:

Can I use P A or P M instead of pulgar index?

No.

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 8 2020 2:05:27

devilhand

Posts: 1598
Joined: Oct. 15 2019

RE: Pulgar Index Revisited (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

quote:

Can I use P A or P M instead of pulgar index?

No.

My PM or PA seem to sound the same as PI. Could you tell the reasons why PM and PA can't be used? Is it possible that PI is established for historical reasons, and not because we want to achieve a certain tone with P I?
I remember G. Nunez saying in his video, for PI tocaor had to accent pulgar by using a or m finger golpe in the old days meaning they had to be played simultaneously.

My theory is the only free finger was index finger. So P I technique was born.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 18 2020 13:15:47

Auda

Posts: 246
Joined: Sep. 28 2019

RE: Pulgar Index Revisited (in reply to devilhand)

I had thought along the same lines too. I tried playing pmp for a section in Zapteado in Re that is played a few times quickly in a 10 fret span. I have now switched to pip that I think is the way it is usually played and found it is a better fit. For a folk idiom Flamenco sure has lots of "rules".

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 18 2020 15:01:38

Ricardo

Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Pulgar Index Revisited (in reply to Auda)

Basically when you play with Thumb and finger combos you want to cater to the best ami fingers orientation. That means the thumb has to be adaptable and “give up” on its ideal flamenco tone and feel in many cases. When you have a pulgar dominant melody, we necessarily switch our posture to facilitate the more aggressive flamenco tone. But if we might need to use a finger to catch the first string or something for color or ostenato, the orientation of the thumb does not permit comfortable use of the m or a finger because, if you file your nails correctly for tone, you will have edges exposed you don’t want to catch in the new thumb driven posture. Only the INDEX finger might function, and it’s for this reason a “ramp” designed for filing will run opposite the ring finger direction.

Also, as mentioned golpes with a and m fingers together are used opposite pulgar accents.

Lastly, most newbies to flamenco feel the opposing action of p and m “faster” and more secure for fast passages and find p i awkward. The main reason is they have the wrong concept of how pulgar is played. They are retracting the thumb even for rest stroke. They must first learn to drag the thumb across strings in rhythm. Once they got that they need to learn to sneak in the index note in between the thumb drags... so it’s a coordination thing they are missing at first. The thumb drag often corresponds to the posture change I referred to earlier as well. Then it suddenly makes sense why a or m is dumb as a substitute.

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 18 2020 16:46:04

Auda

Posts: 246
Joined: Sep. 28 2019

RE: Pulgar Index Revisited (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

They must first learn to drag the thumb across strings in rhythm.

The piece has helped me with the dragging technique (I believe) especially the section we had discussed previously on a different thread. My conception of it is going deeper into the strings with the pulgar to get the dragging effect.

The pip I referred to above uses the same bass note for the p for each triplet. You might know the part I am talking about.

Cheers

PS I still have yet to get the dragging technique down for tremolo though I confess I have not worked on it much yet since the particular pieces I have learned/learning (mostly by Sabicas) have not really utilised the methodology. I'm sure I will eventually get to a piece that does.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 18 2020 18:41:00

Filip

Posts: 403
Joined: Apr. 23 2006
From: Paris

RE: Pulgar Index Revisited (in reply to Ricardo)

Is it correct to say that the proper thumb position for playing PI or PIP sequences is the same as the position for playing alzapua or for playing thumb alone, as opposed to the position used for tremolo or arpeggio?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 18 2020 20:04:09

Ricardo

Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Pulgar Index Revisited (in reply to Filip)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Filip

Is it correct to say that the proper thumb position for playing PI or PIP sequences is the same as the position for playing alzapua or for playing thumb alone, as opposed to the position used for tremolo or arpeggio?

In general yes.

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 19 2020 16:48:58

devilhand

Posts: 1598
Joined: Oct. 15 2019

RE: Pulgar Index Revisited (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

Basically when you play with Thumb and finger combos you want to cater to the best ami fingers orientation. That means the thumb has to be adaptable and “give up” on its ideal flamenco tone and feel in many cases. When you have a pulgar dominant melody, we necessarily switch our posture to facilitate the more aggressive flamenco tone.

I really like the idea of distinguishing between a pulgar and arpeggio dominant sound.
PI mentioned in my opening post was arpeggio driven because the whole 12 beat compas was full of arps and one or two PI got sandwiched between those arps. It's definitely not PIP. Those arps must be played fast as well. So I thought I could use PM or particularly PA instead of PI because my ring finger is ready to pluck the high E string due to my basic arpeggio hand position. But I don't know if there's a flamenco tone produced by PI in an arpeggio dominant section of the music. I very much doubt that PI can be seen as a short version of PAMI arpeggio in this particular situation. Maybe I should ask the same question. Can I use PM or PA instead of PI in this situation?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 19 2020 17:17:01

Filip

Posts: 403
Joined: Apr. 23 2006
From: Paris

RE: Pulgar Index Revisited (in reply to Ricardo)

Thanks Ricardo.

During the lockdown I was working on a few flamenco techniques. I noticed that my usual hand position when doing PI/PIP exercises is the same as tremolo/arpeggio position. I found it easier to play that way, but then I saw Oscar Herrero's DVD and he plays in other hand position. I practiced more pulgar/alzapua position after, but until now it was unclear to me which is the correct one and why.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 20 2020 8:18:42

devilhand

Posts: 1598
Joined: Oct. 15 2019

RE: Pulgar Index Revisited (in reply to Filip)

quote:

I noticed that my usual hand position when doing PI/PIP exercises is the same as tremolo/arpeggio position. I found it easier to play that way, but then I saw Oscar Herrero's DVD and he plays in other hand position.

Talking about O. Herrero he advocates 2 main right hand positions. Flat wrist for arpeggio, tremolo and picado. Arched wrist for pulgar, alzapua and rasgueado. But somehow I believe flat wrist restricts the finger movement from the big knuckle. So my wrist is slightly arched for arpeggio, tremolo and picado.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 20 2020 18:07:43

devilhand

Posts: 1598
Joined: Oct. 15 2019

RE: Pulgar Index Revisited (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Filip

Is it correct to say that the proper thumb position for playing PI or PIP sequences is the same as the position for playing alzapua or for playing thumb alone, as opposed to the position used for tremolo or arpeggio?

In general yes.

Is this the thumb position for PI or PIP at 20:26 and 20:35?
Looks like his hand position for pulgar doesn't change, but his thumb moves a bit towards the soundhole to play PI.
Maybe one can see the whole picture better at 20:23-20:45. He switches between 2 different thumb positions.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 22 2021 16:59:10

etta

Posts: 342
Joined: Jan. 20 2010

RE: Pulgar Index Revisited (in reply to devilhand)

I enjoy playing the flamenco guitar; it is a vital part my life. But...when I read posts like this one, (pulgar index revisited), I am amazed. Sometimes I think we are prone to "paralysis by analysis".

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 22 2021 17:36:05