How to increase sequential plant ima speed

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devilhand

Posts: 1598
Joined: Oct. 15 2019

How to increase sequential plant ima...

I decided to stick to sequential planting for pimami arpeggio instead of full planting. But I noticed ascending ima is way slower than descending ami. Could anyone recommend good exercises for increasing speed in sequential plant pima?

Or should I do full plant for ima and sequential plant for ami as W. Kanengiser recommended? He says the full plant will disappear when you get faster. I don't know if full plant ima will help me increase speed though.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 21 2020 12:03:16

orsonw

Posts: 1934
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: How to increase sequential plant... (in reply to devilhand)

I have found that paying attention to releasing any unneeded tension in the hand/fingers in between the notes is at least as important as actually playing the notes.

  I sequential plant PIMAMI. Personally I find the ascending M to A, is the part that slows me down. M very naturally lands on it’s string as I plays. But for me when M plays A doesn’t naturally fall on to it’s string. The extra work of extending the A to get it on it’s string was slowing me down and creating more tension in my hand. Once getting A to the string is easier this then means M and I are more relaxed and in a position to naturally fall on their strings in the descending part. I have found trying to get this M to A part as natural and tension free as possible has sped up my double arpeggio. In my case switching to full plant IMA didn’t help me because I still had the tension in the hand.

I wouldn’t say any one particular exercise did this. More about intention and identifying where I was carrying tension and what was slowing me down. I find it's good to switch up exercises to give the <body nervous system> novel problems to solve.   But here’s one exercise that I find useful. IMA ascending all 6 stings and then AMI descending all 6 stings and mixing in-between playing tirando and apoyando. This exercise leaves out the thumb, which for me is somewhere I've had to learn to relax. For me also the little finger and across the metacarpals are places I can carry tension.

Due to our anatomy there is always going to be some lack of muscle independence between fingers. We can only try to minimise working against ourselves. This is where the speed comes from. Playing one note fast is easy, it’s preparing to play the next one that’s the challenge!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 21 2020 16:15:19

orsonw

Posts: 1934
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: How to increase sequential plant... (in reply to orsonw)

I am not a classical player but on the issue of tension/relaxation I find Pepe Romero helpful:

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 21 2020 17:05:32

JasonM

Posts: 2055
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: How to increase sequential plant... (in reply to devilhand)

I think you should should practice full planting. That’s the flamenco way. But one good reason for it is that it gives your hand a stability anchor after the thumb plays a bass note.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 21 2020 17:20:16

orsonw

Posts: 1934
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: How to increase sequential plant... (in reply to JasonM)

quote:

I think you should should practice full planting. That’s the flamenco way

It seems full is more common, but flamenco players vary some do sequential?

Pepe Habichuela for example does a sequential plant.
Good view in this video at 00:24, set you tube to play at 0.25 speed.

Gerardo Nunez also used sequential.

There's more discussion on this thread:
http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=198026&appid=&p=&mpage=1&key=&tmode=&smode=&s=#198026

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 21 2020 17:48:18

devilhand

Posts: 1598
Joined: Oct. 15 2019

RE: How to increase sequential plant... (in reply to orsonw)

quote:

IMA ascending all 6 stings and then AMI descending all 6 stings and mixing in-between playing tirando and apoyando. This exercise leaves out the thumb, which for me is somewhere I've had to learn to relax. For me also the little finger and across the metacarpals are places I can carry tension.

Thanks for the video. I just practiced it. I hope speed will come with time. I'm gonna integrate it into my practice routine. I don't pay attention to the little finger though. Looks like my pinky follows the A finger as if it were tied to the A finger. I don't know if it's a good sign or not.

As for Pepe Habichuela, he does sequential plant all the time. Pimami sequential plant at 3:17 & 4:21 as well.
Btw, I really like Pepe Romero's approach. I'm gonna watch any video of him on youtube.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 21 2020 20:03:32

devilhand

Posts: 1598
Joined: Oct. 15 2019

RE: How to increase sequential plant... (in reply to JasonM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JasonM

I think you should should practice full planting. That’s the flamenco way. But one good reason for it is that it gives your hand a stability anchor after the thumb plays a bass note.

Yes, I'm gonna practice it too. It looks like both way of planting is used depending on the situation. Look at 1:14 in Pepe Habicheula video. He does ami full plant. According to Mr. Marlow this is very unusual.

quote:

I have not seen a player to full plants for ami, but I have seen players in flamenco do ami apoyando (Vicente Amigo).

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 21 2020 20:06:58

JasonM

Posts: 2055
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: How to increase sequential plant... (in reply to orsonw)

I concur on both ways of planting, I was thinking mr. Devil meant he wasn’t going to use full planting at all. I do feel like the sequential planting happens almost naturally through practice of just ramping up your speed and economizing your movement. Maybe that’s just me though.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 22 2020 2:56:48

Ricardo

Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: How to increase sequential plant... (in reply to JasonM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JasonM

I concur on both ways of planting, I was thinking mr. Devil meant he wasn’t going to use full planting at all. I do feel like the sequential planting happens almost naturally through practice of just ramping up your speed and economizing your movement. Maybe that’s just me though.

Sequential planting is best learned with exercises using 16th notes via:
Imam,imam, imam etc on three adjacent strings. It’s wise to turn the rhythm around as well:
amim,amim,amim etc
Mima,mima, mima, etc
And last
Mami,mami, mami, etc.

Sequential plant gets a thorough workout with that.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 22 2020 19:10:40

orsonw

Posts: 1934
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: How to increase sequential plant... (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

Sequential planting is best learned with exercises using 16th notes via:
Imam,imam, imam etc on three adjacent strings. It’s wise to turn the rhythm around as well:
amim,amim,amim etc
Mima,mima, mima, etc
And last
Mami,mami, mami, etc.

Sequential plant gets a thorough workout with that.

Thank you.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 22 2020 20:42:42

devilhand

Posts: 1598
Joined: Oct. 15 2019

RE: How to increase sequential plant... (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

Sequential planting is best learned with exercises using 16th notes via:
Imam,imam, imam etc on three adjacent strings. It’s wise to turn the rhythm around as well:
amim,amim,amim etc
Mima,mima, mima, etc
And last
Mami,mami, mami, etc.

Sequential plant gets a thorough workout with that.

Thanks for the exercise. I understood the idea behind. It's like practicing rasgueado starting from different fingers. Do I have to exclude the thumb? Or how can I integrate the thumb into this exercise?

I think in his video above at 0:00-1:40 del Monte is talking about your Practice makes permanent, not perfect advice. Somehow this reminds me of the concept of beginner's mind. I do believe technique can be developed to perfection with this mindset.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoshin

https://organicstrategies.de/en/seeing-with-new-eyes-how-the-beginners-mind-expands-your-playing-field/

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 22 2020 20:44:05