Evaluation of six flamenco guitar plans

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josswinn

Posts: 12
Joined: Apr. 3 2018

Evaluation of six flamenco guitar plans

I have written up an evaluation and comparison of six flamenco plans, which might be of interested to people here. I've used an article published by John Ray and others as my benchmark.

You can find my evaluation here:

https://josswinn.org/2020/06/12/learning-from-drawings-an-evaluation-of-six-flamenco-guitar-plans/

Or just go straight to the comparison here:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1fpYzwFhm_HehRoMZIoy-y8sGigOSpbB271lVhyiwkUA/edit?usp=sharing

If there are other plans you think should be included, please suggest them.

Cheers
Joss

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Joss Winn

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 13 2020 8:22:44

Echi

Posts: 1131
Joined: Jan. 11 2013

RE: Evaluation of six flamenco guita... (in reply to josswinn)

Joss, I find your work very interesting.
If I can say it, I always preferred the plans of Bruné and Merrin as they are very informative also about the doming of the plates.
Brune writes also about the building method which is big plus.
Btw I’d like to buy also a plan of Santos drawn by John Ray and published in the Roseta Journal. Let see.

Let me just share my 2 cents about your method though: in fact there is an evolution in flamenco guitars which goes au pair with an increased weight of the guitar. I imagine Gore and Gilet took old flamenco guitars as reference and not a recent Conde.
Please, take a look at the technical data of the guitars listed in Solera Flamenca or flamenco-guitar.net; you may pick Reyes, Conde or Barba and compare the evolution of the weight and plantillas (when available). Average is today at 1400 grams.

Someone may think that Santos is still the Unsurpassed prototype of the perfect flamenco guitar and may consider old guitars better than the new ones: No worries.
Flamenco can be very traditional as very modern and different guitars may fit better the music.

Anyway my point is that the devil is in the detail: I find better to focus in one maker at time (either Reyes, Barbero or Santos) and gather as many info as possible to understand the ratio behind the maker’s choices. To mix different elements never worked for me.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 13 2020 11:13:37

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Evaluation of six flamenco guita... (in reply to josswinn)

If this is not a prioritized presentation then I would like to submit my drawing of a 2003 Manuel Reyes plan I donated to the Guild of American Luthiers, the GAL.

You can e-mail Tim Olsen and ask permission to use the plan.

tim@luth.org

www.luth.org

https://luth.org/instrument-plans/guitar-plans/flamenco-guitar-plans/

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 13 2020 15:29:42

josswinn

Posts: 12
Joined: Apr. 3 2018

RE: Evaluation of six flamenco guita... (in reply to josswinn)

Echi, Thank you.

I would like to have the John Ray plan, too. I have contacted the journal, but had no reply. I'll try again.

About the weight, yes, I agree, Gore and Gilet must have used old blancas to be able to state that the target weight is around 1100g. My own preference is very light blancas, so I have tended to focus on that.

I reviewed the weight of guitars on Solera Flamanca last year, again focusing on blancas only. The second worksheet on this spreadsheet has the data I found for 55 guitars:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1MXm385ck2XGBSs-RQ2goCIQUrNe1-DuOj6pKuhzLn7g/edit?usp=sharing

The weight is not always given for those 55 guitars, but the average for 16 guitars between 1953 and 1987 is 1200g.

If you say the average is 1400g, then you must be included negras, because I reckon it's just as hard to make a blanca 1400g as it is to make it 1100g! :-)

My suggestion on my blog post that 6 plans are better than 1, is not that it's better to mix the design of different makers - I don't really have an opinion on that. I think that the benefit of six plans for people learning to make guitars is that they show you that there's room for variation and individual choice and that the great makers didn't turn out exactly the same specification of guitar each time.

Cheers,
Joss

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Joss Winn

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 13 2020 18:30:39

josswinn

Posts: 12
Joined: Apr. 3 2018

RE: Evaluation of six flamenco guita... (in reply to josswinn)

Tom, is your plan sold as a single page as published in American Lutherie #84 (2005)?

If so, I can include it from my copy of the Red Book Vol. 7. I don't have the full-size drawing myself, but will order a copy.

Thank you
Joss

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Joss Winn

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 13 2020 18:36:35

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Evaluation of six flamenco guita... (in reply to josswinn)

Yes , the GAL sells the 2003 Reyes plan as a single page.

you can order it from www.luth.org

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 14 2020 0:49:14

johnguitar

Posts: 208
Joined: Jan. 10 2006

RE: Evaluation of six flamenco guita... (in reply to Echi)

The plan I drew is of a classical guitar which belonged to Andrés Segovia. It is a very light build and might make a good flamenco but is quite different from the Santos flamencos I have seen.

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John Ray
https://www.johnguitar.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 14 2020 22:19:46

johnguitar

Posts: 208
Joined: Jan. 10 2006

RE: Evaluation of six flamenco guita... (in reply to johnguitar)

I don't know why it is so hard to get copies of Roseta (for the guitar plan) but I now have some information. You should contact the bookshop which handles orders.

libreriareno@libreriareno.com
Telephone number is 91 4457557 and in either case you should speak to Marisa.

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John Ray
https://www.johnguitar.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 14 2020 22:21:29

Echi

Posts: 1131
Joined: Jan. 11 2013

RE: Evaluation of six flamenco guita... (in reply to josswinn)

Thanks for the info.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 15 2020 10:46:40

josswinn

Posts: 12
Joined: Apr. 3 2018

RE: Evaluation of six flamenco guita... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

Tom, I have ordered both your Reyes and Fernandez plans and will post here when I have updated the comparison.

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Joss Winn

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 15 2020 19:36:45

josswinn

Posts: 12
Joined: Apr. 3 2018

RE: Evaluation of six flamenco guita... (in reply to johnguitar)

John, I'm keen to have your plan but won't included it in the comparison as I want to limit it to flamenco guitars (or I'll go broke buying plans!).

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Joss Winn

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 15 2020 19:39:18

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Evaluation of six flamenco guita... (in reply to josswinn)

quote:

Tom, I have ordered both your Reyes and Fernandez plans and will post here when I have updated the comparison.

What prompted me to draw these two flamenco styles is due to the understanding that there were no models of this on the market at the time.

My thinking was to provide some interesting plans for other builders to have fun with; being that these two master builders have earned the right to be noted as very popular artisans in building circles.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 16 2020 16:16:47

josswinn

Posts: 12
Joined: Apr. 3 2018

RE: Evaluation of six flamenco guita... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

Tom, your plans finally arrived from GAL and I have added them to the comparison spreadsheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1fpYzwFhm_HehRoMZIoy-y8sGigOSpbB271lVhyiwkUA/edit?usp=sharing

I still intend to revise my original blog post and submit an article to American Lutherie at some point, discussing all eight plans and John Ray's evaluation procedure in more detail.

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Joss Winn

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 15 2020 18:24:35

Echi

Posts: 1131
Joined: Jan. 11 2013

RE: Evaluation of six flamenco guita... (in reply to josswinn)

I’m having that plan since May.
I hope not to hurt anybody when I said that I found it not as detailed as the average of the guitar plans otherwise sold by GAL, particularly with regards with the thickness of the plates.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 16 2020 10:23:36