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After getting a lot of useful advice from various posters on the "foot tapping and tempo" thread (a big thank you to everyone who contributed), I have introduced palmas into my practice regime to help improve my compás. I'm practicing soleá at the moment so that has been my focus, I have a playlist with some solo some cante, old, new and anything in between, and before every practice session I hit "random" and play simple palmas to whatever comes up.
Some examples are relatively steady and I can confidently follow from start to finish; the majority I can follow OK-ish, get lost sometimes but can get back on track quickly. But only one has totally and utterly confused me (one so far that is, I'm sure there are others out there...), which is Paco's Gloria Al Nińo Ricardo:
From about 1:35 to about 1:25 I don't have a clue where I am. However many times I listen and relisten to that section I can't hear the compás at all.
If anyone has any suggestions on techniques, or suggestions of what to look out for to help stay in compás I'd appreciate any help.
Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Beginner - help with palmas + fe... (in reply to Inglés)
This situation, frankly, annoys me. When tempo is elastic it’s impossible to do an objective “correct” palmas over top to a pre recorded track. It’s why they invented the “click track” for multitrack recording, because what you are trying to do is almost impossible, or at least extremely complex to the point of absurdity.
However, with that in mind, what you need to understand is subdivision and how to both count and feel that. For your example I would write the picado as 16ths, 2e&ah3, 4(chord), 5e&ah6,7... 9e&ah10....rasgueado on 12.
In the Vicente example here I am trying to track for the listener, the 16th notes. I am splitting the difference (not always smacking the downbeat where it should be) so that one might get a better sense of the overall phrasing, vs what it would look like on paper. For advanced students I would say this can be an important exercise....for new students working on general timing and groove, avoid this for now. Stick to metronomic examples only for.... years at least.
RE: Beginner - help with palmas + fe... (in reply to Inglés)
quote:
I have introduced palmas into my practice regime to help improve my compás.
I think learning or feeling compas with the help of palmas is a bad idea and makes everything complicated. If I were you, I would ignore palmas and concentrate only on steady beats.
In your example it sounds like there's no compas from 1:35 onwards. However, if I tap my foot at 1:29-2:29, I know where I am. It's 1 min long. Each compas lasts 6 sec, there must be 10 compas. No rubato. But I could be wrong. In Solea, I always look at the last 3 beats of compas. They are mostly in 8th notes. Easy to follow.
RE: Beginner - help with palmas + fe... (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ricardo
This situation, frankly, annoys me. When tempo is elastic it’s impossible to do an objective “correct” palmas over top to a pre recorded track. It’s why they invented the “click track” for multitrack recording, because what you are trying to do is almost impossible, or at least extremely complex to the point of absurdity.
However, with that in mind, what you need to understand is subdivision and how to both count and feel that. For your example I would write the picado as 16ths, 2e&ah3, 4(chord), 5e&ah6,7... 9e&ah10....rasgueado on 12.
In the Vicente example here I am trying to track for the listener, the 16th notes. I am splitting the difference (not always smacking the downbeat where it should be) so that one might get a better sense of the overall phrasing, vs what it would look like on paper. For advanced students I would say this can be an important exercise....for new students working on general timing and groove, avoid this for now. Stick to metronomic examples only for.... years at least.
This is probably the best advice I could get to be honest, "it's above your pay grade, don't worry about it yet"! I've been a teacher (not music) in the past, I know how counterproductive it is when a low-level student gets too focussed on something they are not yet ready for. So thank you.
I will have a listen to your example and see if I might learn something, but keep my expectations low
RE: Beginner - help with palmas + fe... (in reply to Inglés)
So, I love the discussions of Ricardo and Diablohands but you guys board the bullet train of technicalities and take a thread off the rails with regularity. Please appease us peons of little music theory and bring this back to the OP origanal inquiry.
What are a few recordings suitable for a beginner working out palmas? Could be fun to work one of them out together.
Are there a few basic rules we need heed to stay in compás?
Guessing there must be a few really good threads buried here on the Foro?
Myself I find the perfect palmas with little variation worse then a click track and I hear that in a lot in newer recordings. It adds nothing if there is no variation. These are not begainers that's obvious. I notice in videos from the 70's different people clapping different rhythms ( is That the right word?) and it really adds a depth lacking in modern recordings.
I'm on double lockdown now with this broken foot and can only play guitar for so many hours, rough I know ;)
HR
_____________________________
I prefer my flamenco guitar spicy, doesn't have to be fast, should have some meat on the bones, can be raw or well done, as long as it doesn't sound like it's turning green on an elevator floor.
RE: Beginner - help with palmas + fe... (in reply to ernandez R)
quote:
ORIGINAL: ernandez R
So, I love the discussions of Ricardo and Diablohands but you guys board the bullet train of technicalities and take a thread off the rails with regularity. Please appease us peons of little music theory and bring this back to the OP origanal inquiry.
What are a few recordings suitable for a beginner working out palmas? Could be fun to work one of them out together.
Are there a few basic rules we need heed to stay in compás?
Guessing there must be a few really good threads buried here on the Foro?
Myself I find the perfect palmas with little variation worse then a click track and I hear that in a lot in newer recordings. It adds nothing if there is no variation. These are not begainers that's obvious. I notice in videos from the 70's different people clapping different rhythms ( is That the right word?) and it really adds a depth lacking in modern recordings.
I'm on double lockdown now with this broken foot and can only play guitar for so many hours, rough I know ;)
HR
Last night I had a go at a Camarón and Tomatito soleá I found on Youtube:
That was about the right level for me, definitely enough of a challenge that there's loads of room for improvement but not so difficult it becomes pointless trying.
I'd echo your question if there are any tricks of the trade I could be using to get better, or whether the only way is practice practice practice.
Personally, I suspect I might be too dependent on listening for the first beat of a measure (the 1 + 4 especially) so if there's a rest there it can **** up my count. That's something to try and improve I guess.
I'm presumably not alone in finding beat 10 an easy anchor point that brings me back in when I don't get lost - that seems to me the most obvious repeated figure in most soleares?
RE: Beginner - help with palmas + fe... (in reply to Inglés)
quote:
I'd echo your question if there are any tricks of the trade I could be using to get better, or whether the only way is practice practice practice.
I don't know if this is officially a trick of the trade, or if anyone else will agree with it, but what I can say has helped me with palmas and compas etc. is listening to solo compas tracks, the OFS/Manuel Salado ones with guitar. The guitar plays marcaje/compas with few variations and it helped me get beyond counting.
did a quick search and came up with a few examples (I have them all on CD from pre-internet days):
RE: Beginner - help with palmas + fe... (in reply to ernandez R)
quote:
So, I love the discussions of Ricardo and Diablohands but you guys board the bullet train of technicalities and take a thread off the rails with regularity. Please appease us peons of little music theory and bring this back to the OP origanal inquiry.
hard not to when the OP is asking about modern PDL solo guitar!
quote:
Myself I find the perfect palmas with little variation worse then a click track and I hear that in a lot in newer recordings. It adds nothing if there is no variation. These are not begainers that's obvious. I notice in videos from the 70's different people clapping different rhythms ( is That the right word?) and it really adds a depth lacking in modern recordings.
could you post a few examples to show what you mean? As the guitar has evolved it tends to PLAY the compas less and and play OVER the compas more, so maybe in old videos the palmeros have more room to play as the guitar is holding more of the compas, and in more recent recordings the guitar needs a solid backing to play over? I don't really know without hearing the specific things you are referring to.
RE: Beginner - help with palmas + fe... (in reply to mark indigo)
Mark, Thanx for posting the recordings. But to be honest the first thing I did was reach for a guitar and start noodling around. On some pain meds at the moment and find my focus is quite limited :/ except I can play until my hands say enough.
To be honest I'm at a point where I know a couple of lessons would really help but the Boss has us on a serious austerity program, bless her Machiavellin heart.
I get what you are saying about the OP was asking about the PDL piece. A few quarters of music theory at a local junior collage 35 years ago so I can mostly keep up with the discussion when the boys get technical and I love the challange they provide! I just felt that we could use that "begainer help with palmas"
Fun fact: some friends of mine had a social event, pre C19, and asked if I would play some flamenco and lead a group palmas just for fun. It was fun but I hadn't played in front of people in 30 years. Anyway, I played some flamingo (insert pink bird emoji here )and then after everyone had a few glasses of wine I explained the 12 beat Compas and where the accents were on a Bolieras and we went to town. Any Gutaino would have been embarised as hell and ether run away or crushed my guitar over my head but after a few more glasses of wine we all had a great time clapping, clapping so bad PDL would have been woke and been rolling in his grave.
I prefer my flamenco guitar spicy, doesn't have to be fast, should have some meat on the bones, can be raw or well done, as long as it doesn't sound like it's turning green on an elevator floor.
Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Beginner - help with palmas + fe... (in reply to ernandez R)
quote:
What are a few recordings suitable for a beginner working out palmas? Could be fun to work one of them out together.
Are there a few basic rules we need heed to stay in compás?
The compas cds now on youtube that Mark loaded are good. There are several others recommended for practice as well, bulerias being extremely important as it’s one of the few forms that really benefits from palmas especially modern styles. There exists other compas CDs that I recall being very poor, so without references stick to the collection Mark recommended. It’s good because they use a METRONOME to record so that is very important.
The basic rules you need are to understand how to track or FEEL subdivisions using a metronome. Learn what patterns you need to do, then practice them with a metronome. This goes for palmas, counting, guitar, dance, singing, etc. Don’t waste any time trying to clap along to mixed and mastered recordings of performances that already have palmas (they are compressed so it’s extra challenging to hear the down beats so until you appreciate the dynamics being squashed you will get thrown off.) Without a teacher there with you telling you each time you are wrong you are not learning anything. Use a metrome instead, it will be quite obvious what you need to do. Focus on using SLOW tempo clicks even with faster speed clapping patterns....the idea is to control or FEEL the spaces between the clicks.
Here is a video of how to use a metronome as you advance:
Before anyone accuse me again of off topic, well, what Victor shows is universal for all music including flamenco.
RE: Beginner - help with palmas + fe... (in reply to ernandez R)
quote:
But to be honest the first thing I did was reach for a guitar and start noodling around.
that's fine, i posted them in reply to Inglés, you can do whatever you want with them, noodle around over the top if you want.... what I used to do with them was to put the cd's on in the kitchen when i was cooking or whatever, just to have the compás in the background and kind of absorb it by osmosis without really listening to it closely, just to get the palmas patterns in my ear etc. Also i would sit down and take the cuadrado guitar sequences to mess around with at dance classes etc. - you can do all sorts of things with them.
quote:
I get what you are saying about the OP was asking about the PDL piece. A few quarters of music theory at a local junior collage 35 years ago so I can mostly keep up with the discussion when the boys get technical and I love the challange they provide! I just felt that we could use that "begainer help with palmas"
I think it's difficult when someone asks about advanced material as a beginner. Anyone who is at a level to answer to that (note: i didn't try to answer it ) must have a dilemma: do they 1) answer the question with the inevitable technicalities and maybe lose a few people, or 2) point out that it's not beginner material and they shouldn't be trying to grapple with that....
I also think you probably already have more music theory than most flamencos, historically at least. I don't think you NEED a whole lot of theory, at least to begin and to play basic flamenco.
quote:
....lead a group palmas just for fun. ....I explained the 12 beat Compas and where the accents were on a Bolieras
RE: Beginner - help with palmas + fe... (in reply to Inglés)
Ingles,
If you want to practice palmas to Solea or any other palo, practice to modern recordings. They all use a click track. You'll want to make your way back to older recordings, where compas is elastic/stretched, practice with a metronome, baile vids old and new... practice on your own, etc.
Eventually you'll hang out at a juerga or friends etc.. , or have to work out something with baile or cante. Dont want to be caught out of compas. It's great to hear you practice palmas, 5 to 10 min a day it will do wonders.
Don't listen to haters or BS about feeling compas with palmas... worse advise ever.
I used to take palma classes with Antonio Molina 'El Choro', it was a very humbling experience but helped so much. I was doing 10 min a day back then, if only I did that now. So always work on palmas or other rhythm studies. It really improves you as a musician more than you think. You can know all the theory, falsetas, best technique etc pero sin compas, chale esta cabron.
RE: Beginner - help with palmas + fe... (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ricardo
Here is a video of how to use a metronome as you advance:
Before anyone accuse me again of off topic, well, what Victor shows is universal for all music including flamenco.
Mr. Wooten wants to wean himself off the metronome. Yet, he keeps tapping his foot at 160 bpm even after he reduces the metronome tempo down to 40 bpm. He should have tapped his foot at the same rate of bpm as the metronome or he shouldn't have tapped along with the metronome beat. For me, he's fooling himself there. Or can anyone explain to me this is not the case?
RE: Beginner - help with palmas + fe... (in reply to devilhand)
quote:
Mr. Wooten wants to wean himself off the metronome. Yet, he keeps tapping his foot at 160 bpm even after he reduces the metronome tempo down to 40 bpm.
What a troll comment. There is no contradiction here, there is no "Yet". Do you not comprehend that tapping a foot shows us his internal clock and how it matches what was originally all external clock - the metronome? He's left the metronome for us to easily SEE (in addition to hearing how his playing matches up) that he keeps up internally with the original external tempo - it is a visual check for truth device. The tapping is for US - not for him.
Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Beginner - help with palmas + fe... (in reply to devilhand)
quote:
Yet, he keeps tapping his foot at 160 bpm even after he reduces the metronome tempo down to 40 bpm. He should have tapped his foot at the same rate of bpm as the metronome or he shouldn't have tapped along with the metronome beat. For me, he's fooling himself there. O
News flash...YOUR foot especially, but neither HIS nor MINE is a freaking METRONOME. Nor are his damn fingers. Nor would be his yours or anybody’s freaking PALMAS. That’s the entire POINT of the exercise. To KEEP TIME WITH YOUR OWN BODY....yet with precision such that a slow metronome sounds like it’s listening to you and the rhythms you are making and seems to be following YOU....however the hell you are making those rhythms. Get it? Wow....
Look, just do the exercise, tap your foot as fast as you want, please come back to us with your amazing insights after you have mastered the exercise.
RE: Beginner - help with palmas + fe... (in reply to kitarist)
quote:
Do you not comprehend that tapping a foot shows us his internal clock and how it matches what was originally all external clock - the metronome?
I think internal clock is about feeling the beats - downbeats, backbeats and off-beats. To me, foot tapping is nothing more than a metronome. I try to integrate foot tapping into my playing to control rhythm. I think there are 3 steps, metronome -> foot tapping -> feel the beats. There's no shortcut. My ultimate goal is to feel the beats. So the next question would be how to wean yourself off foot tapping.
RE: Beginner - help with palmas + fe... (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
ORIGINAL: mark indigo
I don't know if this is officially a trick of the trade, or if anyone else will agree with it, but what I can say has helped me with palmas and compas etc. is listening to solo compas tracks, the OFS/Manuel Salado ones with guitar. The guitar plays marcaje/compas with few variations and it helped me get beyond counting.
That’s some really good resources, thank you. I’m using these
quote:
ORIGINAL: devilhand
@Ingles What I don't like about palmas is contratiempo
Sorry I’m not sure what your point is. What do you mean by you don’t “like” contratiempo?
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ricardo
The basic rules you need are to understand how to track or FEEL subdivisions using a metronome. Learn what patterns you need to do, then practice them with a metronome. This goes for palmas, counting, guitar, dance, singing, etc. Don’t waste any time trying to clap along to mixed and mastered recordings of performances that already have palmas (they are compressed so it’s extra challenging to hear the down beats so until you appreciate the dynamics being squashed you will get thrown off.) Without a teacher there with you telling you each time you are wrong you are not learning anything. Use a metrome instead, it will be quite obvious what you need to do. Focus on using SLOW tempo clicks even with faster speed clapping patterns....the idea is to control or FEEL the spaces between the clicks.
Here is a video of how to use a metronome as you advance:
Before anyone accuse me again of off topic, well, what Victor shows is universal for all music including flamenco.
Thank you for that, very illuminating. I’m going to incorporate some of that in to my metronome practice, especially halving the metronome to wean myself off it.
As for the last 5 beats / 4 beats exercise - it’s essentially a polymeter of 5/4 against 4/4 isn’t it.. A great example of that in action is Let Down by Radiohead, the song starts with one guitar playing 5/4, the rest of the band come in in straight 4/4 but the guitar continues to play in 5/4 underneath. I worked on learning it a couple of years ago, playing in 5s while counting in 4s - it’s a really good exercise in timing, and very fun to play.
It’s also a ****ing great song, if anyone hasn’t heard it have a listen, it’s incredible:
I’m a real Radiohead fanboy I’m afraid, Let Down is probably my favourite song or piece of music in the world bar none.
quote:
ORIGINAL: mt1007
Ingles,
If you want to practice palmas to Solea or any other palo, practice to modern recordings. They all use a click track. You'll want to make your way back to older recordings, where compas is elastic/stretched, practice with a metronome, baile vids old and new... practice on your own, etc.
RE: Beginner - help with palmas + fe... (in reply to devilhand)
quote:
So the next question would be how to wean yourself off foot tapping.
You don’t. Tapping your foot such as every other beat is a great thing to keep you anchored. All the pros do it including Paco who was a master at timing.
Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Beginner - help with palmas + fe... (in reply to Inglés)
Thanks for radio head. Mclaughlin likes that 5 pattern too... guardian angels intro does it mixed with 3’s also. I realized it was straight 3/4 at some point...and to prove it I had to do palmas to that too lol
So there you go... an other advanced palmas exercise
RE: Beginner - help with palmas + fe... (in reply to Inglés)
Not sure if this is exactly what you may be looking for to help, but this video is great to help better understand the different rhythmic families in Flamenco and how they are felt and applied to various palos.
RE: Beginner - help with palmas + fe... (in reply to Inglés)
quote:
Sorry I’m not sure what your point is. What do you mean by you don’t “like” contratiempo?
Maybe you have to understand first what rhythm is and what beat is. In contra-tiempo you clap your hands on off-beats such that your clapping pattern (palmas) creates its own rhythm with off-beats, which is tricky enough. From what I know palmas in general are mostly done to create a rhythmic pattern. To me, hearing this rhythm alone or along with steady beats is contra-productive. That's why I don't like it. As a beginner, I need steady beats 1, 2, 3 .... 12.
RE: Beginner - help with palmas + fe... (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ricardo
Thanks for radio head. Mclaughlin likes that 5 pattern too... guardian angels intro does it mixed with 3’s also. I realized it was straight 3/4 at some point...and to prove it I had to do palmas to that too lol
So there you go... an other advanced palmas exercise
Ha, I've discovered the secret to Ricardo's bad ass success. His tongue has been assemaleted by the Borg and they have planted a metranome. Note the first ten seconds of the video!
Now don't feel bad, I just had a bakers dozen of titanium bits installed in my foot and my daughter suggested that I too will be asemulated. Only its my left foot which will do no good as it is crossed over my right a la PDL.
Thanx for posting the Victor video upthread. In fact earlier in the day before you had posted that I did the same thing where he halved the metronome speed as a way to wean one off the clicker. I'm still too remedial to try the five beat in four trick, perhaps some day soon. Was working on my three finger rasgao: (on 12) hit, strum, hit, strum, hit, strum, strum, hit... Made it up to 160bpm then turned the metronome down to 80bmp and worked it.
I also made some simple 120bp 3 minuet click, clap, count tracks on iPhone: First I set my metronome at 120, then I hit record on the voice memo then I counted my 12, 1, 2, 3... Accenting my voice on the correct beats. I then mad another recording counting on the beats and clapping on the beats but i stopped counting after two minutes and just clapped on the accent beats accordingly
Just took a moment to make them and now they are in my phone when I need them without fiddling around. Also easy to make different ones as required that suit exactly what I need.
I'm trapped for a few hours a day with a motorized beer cooler cooling my feet so I'm looking for distractions, you know like now when I forgot to stage a guitar I can reach and the boss is out working :/
HR
_____________________________
I prefer my flamenco guitar spicy, doesn't have to be fast, should have some meat on the bones, can be raw or well done, as long as it doesn't sound like it's turning green on an elevator floor.
RE: Beginner - help with palmas + fe... (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ricardo
Thanks for radio head. Mclaughlin likes that 5 pattern too... guardian angels intro does it mixed with 3’s also. I realized it was straight 3/4 at some point...and to prove it I had to do palmas to that too lol
This is cool, I hadn't heard of that piece before.
Listened to it in isolation before your palmas vid and I couldn't hear it in 3s at all; the very first part felt like 5 then 3 then 5 then 3 (averaging to 4 bars of 4/4, essentially), after that I lost it. Just felt like it was changing meter at will.
Putting it in 3s really gives it rhythmic sense, like there is something rooting it all down.
I have no idea if Radiohead are your kind of music at all, but if you're interested in complex rhythm they have a few songs that do some really interesting stuff.
RE: Beginner - help with palmas + fe... (in reply to ernandez R)
quote:
I counted my 12, 1, 2, 3..
I was going to comment on this from your previous post:
quote:
I explained the 12 beat Compas and where the accents were on a Bolieras
but instead I posted a video - did you watch that video?
you should know that the way Bulerías is taught and played is not like that, not with explaining and counting and 12 etc.
first thing dance students are taught in class in spain is palmas in 6 with foot tap like this:
foot clap clap clap clap clap repeat
so in numbers it's foot on 12 and clap 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, then foot on 6, clap on 7, 8, 9, 10, 11 but they don't count it, it's just y ba ba ba ba ba or whatever vocalisation. There are lots of variations, and other teachers will show it differently but that's the basic idea. To close you end one clap short.
It's SIMPLER and it's EASIER than all that expalining counting 12 AND when you encounter medio compas it's not a problem, like you don't even notice it.
here is the video again
I think i'm gonna post this video everytime someone asks about "counting" in bulerias. Actually I was looking for Jason McGuire's video discussion of palmas por bulerias but couldn't find it, I guess he's taken it down, it basically explains the same sort of thing.
when i had lessons from Salvador Andrades he didn't count anything por bulerias, he taught with the foot every other beat (12, 2, 4, 6, 8, 10) and he would say things like "this part comes in after the foot" or "close before the foot" or whatever - it was so much easier than all that maths lesson counting - one thing i noticed from tutorials when people count is you can't hear what they play because they are counting so i can't learn anything, i just zone out when people start counting....
anyway, point is with the real basic palmas that flamencos do it works with everything in bulerias, so the first falseta in this video is no problem (try with your 12 counting and feel the difference )
and note this is not some new-fangled avante-garde flamenco-fusion, this is Paco Peña!
Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Beginner - help with palmas + fe... (in reply to Kaloguitarist)
quote:
I am just curious??? Is it bad to use Doctor Compas?
Yes it’s fine, and fun. I use it mainly for the sound. But If your problem is not with performance but rather just keeping time or bad technique, speed barriers etc, this goes for me as for beginners, it’s back to the basic click and mastering the subdivisions. No short cuts to that IMO. Dr compas has metronome you can turn off the rest of the sounds, so it’s got it all.
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) must have a dilemma: do they 1) answer the question with the inevitable technicalities and maybe lose a few people, or 2) point out that it's not beginner material and they shouldn't be trying to grapple with that.... 
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