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devilhand

 

Posts: 1598
Joined: Oct. 15 2019
 

RE: Which scales? (in reply to kitarist) 
quote:

The implicit assumption there was that the usual E phrygian does not have a leading tone. But it does - F - so if he wanted to add D# anyway, he should have explained its addition with different arguments - in fact the argument about aug 6 harmonic function that you present.

D# (Eb would be the correct spelling to build F7 chord) is required for a dominant chord F7 (FACD#). I think the reason why he added D# is to get a stronger resolution F7-E instead of F-E (same as G7 (G B D F) -> C (C E G)). D# acts as B, which is also a leading tone in C maj scale.
In his E comprehensive flamenco scale, D# is a leading tone. I don't understand why people mention here F# and C#. It's not E major scale.

quote:

Por arriba how about F#? Can’t say I’ve used it a whole lot. So I pulled out a guitar and lo and behold it’s in the first falseta in Antonio Rey’s latest solea. What about Bb? A bit harder to work in but definitely doable as a variation of the F chord. And C#? Heck Sabicas used it por solea. So that’s the whole enchilada.

Where all of a sudden do these Bb, F# and C# come from? Did I miss something?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 12 2020 22:56:10
 
mark indigo

 

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RE: Which scales? (in reply to El Burdo) 
quote:

Now let's have all the responses from all of you who said you can't add notes to scales. Like, oh I don't know, say a G to a E Phrygian dominant scale.

Probably the best line of attack is to denigrate Mr. Del Monte, though he seems quite good.



hilarious.

best form of defence is attack, eh? denigrate your detractors first before they can get a shot in?

and put a laughing smiley to show you are "just joking".

lovely

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 13 2020 16:21:51
 
mark indigo

 

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Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: Which scales? (in reply to devilhand) 
quote:

Where all of a sudden do these Bb, F# and C# come from? Did I miss something?
any time you play C7 chord (which goes right back at least to Ramon Montoya) you have a Bb note. Any time you play a D7 secondary dominant/passing chord to G chord you have F# note. Any time you play A7 secondary dominant/passing chord to D- you have C# note.

really, some people should try first listening to flamenco and then learning some flamenco before they start "explaining" it to other people....

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 13 2020 16:26:03
 
Mark2

Posts: 1871
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco

RE: Which scales? (in reply to devilhand) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: devilhand


Where all of a sudden do these Bb, F# and C# come from? Did I miss something?



Adam's video was about a scale for solea pro arriba(C major). He said add two notes to the C major scale-G# and D#. Ricardo said add all the rest. Bb, F#, and C# are all the rest. So, according to Ricardo, the chromatic scale is what is used por solea. No doubt that is true.

And I also agree with Ricardo that Adam's nine note scale sounds bad when played as a scale. I think learning that particular scale is not the best way for many people. It is valuable to know where those "extra" notes are all over the neck but running that scale over and over is maybe not the best use of time. I think better to learn the c major scale all over the neck very well, then learn how and when to add the other notes would be a better approach IMO. Then again Adam Del Monte is about three times the guitarist and musician I am so there is that.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 13 2020 16:54:06
 
Ricardo

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From: Washington DC

RE: Which scales? (in reply to kitarist) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: kitarist

quote:

No his logic is correct, and you asked this before. The reason it works is Augmented 6 harmonic function/tritone sub, etc etc all discussed already.


I thought he was arguing that normal E phrygian scale does not have a leading tone, so that's why he added an additional tone to the scale - D# - so the scale can have a leading tone. The implicit assumption there was that the usual E phrygian does not have a leading tone. But it does - F - so if he wanted to add D# anyway, he should have explained its addition with different arguments - in fact the argument about aug 6 harmonic function that you present.

So, more specifically, my objection here was to the rationale for adding it, rather than for whether D# works - it does as you say because, once you have it, it ALSO wants to resolve to E, and you provided the aug 6 framework to show that before.


I agree that he should have said D# was the SAME leading tone as used in E major or E minor keys, so he is adding it for the same functional reason.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 13 2020 18:37:43
 
Ricardo

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Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Which scales? (in reply to mark indigo) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: mark indigo

quote:

Where all of a sudden do these Bb, F# and C# come from? Did I miss something?
any time you play C7 chord (which goes right back at least to Ramon Montoya) you have a Bb note. Any time you play a D7 secondary dominant/passing chord to G chord you have F# note. Any time you play A7 secondary dominant/passing chord to D- you have C# note.

really, some people should try first listening to flamenco and then learning some flamenco before they start "explaining" it to other people....


Thank you sir, exactly right. This all goes back to page 1, but I feel people don’t believe it or understand because they haven’t noticed it occur. They want a single scale to learn and THAT explains all Flamenco, like the pentatonic does for blues and rock music.... it simply doesn’t exist.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 13 2020 18:42:32
 
chester

Posts: 891
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RE: Which scales? (in reply to devilhand) 
quote:

like the pentatonic does for blues and rock music.


stairway to heaven is in Am but the solo has an F!

WHERE DID THAT NOTE COME FROM?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 14 2020 5:06:52
 
Ricardo

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From: Washington DC

RE: Which scales? (in reply to chester) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: chester

quote:

like the pentatonic does for blues and rock music.


stairway to heaven is in Am but the solo has an F!

WHERE DID THAT NOTE COME FROM?


Clearly an error... he meant to play E.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 14 2020 17:09:29
 
Mark2

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From: San Francisco

RE: Which scales? (in reply to Ricardo) 
Depends on who is playing the blues. BB King stepped outside the pentatonic scale frequently, and jazz guys, ferget about it. I think a whole lot of flamenco is covered with just the major scale and it's modes. Just add in the rest as needed. Same as the blues with pentatonic. You can't play the blues, or rock, well with only the pentatonic scale.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo




Thank you sir, exactly right. This all goes back to page 1, but I feel people don’t believe it or understand because they haven’t noticed it occur. They want a single scale to learn and THAT explains all Flamenco, like the pentatonic does for blues and rock music.... it simply doesn’t exist.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 14 2020 19:55:44
 
Ricardo

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RE: Which scales? (in reply to Mark2) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mark2

Depends on who is playing the blues. BB King stepped outside the pentatonic scale frequently, and jazz guys, ferget about it. I think a whole lot of flamenco is covered with just the major scale and it's modes. Just add in the rest as needed. Same as the blues with pentatonic. You can't play the blues, or rock, well with only the pentatonic scale.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo




Thank you sir, exactly right. This all goes back to page 1, but I feel people don’t believe it or understand because they haven’t noticed it occur. They want a single scale to learn and THAT explains all Flamenco, like the pentatonic does for blues and rock music.... it simply doesn’t exist.



To clarify... when students learn power chords and minor pentatonic box position, they are well on their way to playing some actual rock music. Flamenco is not so simple and all encompassing. It’s compas patterns and falsetas...any basic ones are a lot more musically involved IMO.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 14 2020 20:36:04
 
mark indigo

 

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RE: Which scales? (in reply to Ricardo) 
quote:

people .... want a single scale to learn and THAT explains all Flamenco,

I think there are two things going on here, that actually both come from the OP's question

quote:

Which scales? ....The purpose is picado runs... and learning/improvising falsetas.

So one thing is what is the scale or scales used for a fast run remate. Por Arriba that is historically mostly pretty straight up E phrygian with often G# instead of or as well as G natural, and often other chromatic additions (especially Sabicas).

The other one is what scale/s to learn that will help with learning or creating falsetas, and that leads into this desire to nail down the one single scale that explains everything.

But as soon as you go down the rabbit hole of trying to "explain" everything with one scale you have the "problem" (it's not a problem, but....) or the E major home chord and phrygian scale with G natural. So you have to have Phrygian dominant as well, and then someone thinks it would be cool to combine the two and you have the octatonic messiah complex developing.... but then someone else wants to have the leading tone as well and you have a 9 note scale, and then really you might as well bung the rest in and have the whole chromatic caboodle!

I while back I tried to find how many phrygian type scales there were already out there, and find quite a few interesting 7 note options, as well as an octatonic (but not THAT one!). By "phrygian type scales" I meant scales that start with semi-tone from root to flat second, but avoiding anything that was too close to Locrian).



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 15 2020 17:20:28
 
Ricardo

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RE: Which scales? (in reply to mark indigo) 
Nice list.

But a more useful scale even than a lot of those would be F lydian dominant. It’s not on the list because there is no “E” note in it, not to mention the useful occurrence of scales that need F# or Bb in context that you are deliberately avoiding, and occurring way more frequently than several on your list, I’m afraid the over emphasis of Phrygian modal sounds is the reason for all the fakemenco going on. As soon as the student recognizes that all the fun and interesting build up of tension occurs AWAY from the phrygian tonic, and that the tonic is more the place of rest where not a lot needs to happen, the sooner they will get the point of the tonality, phrasing, remate, etc, as it occurs.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 15 2020 18:06:02
 
devilhand

 

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RE: Which scales? (in reply to mark indigo) 
What about this one?

1 b2 b3 #4, 5 b6 7
E, F, G, A#, B C, D#

It's actually Phrygian#7 on your list with a raised 4th scale degree. Inspired by the quote of Mr. Marlow

quote:

not to mention the useful occurrence of scales that need F# or Bb in context that you are deliberately avoiding, and occurring way more frequently than several on your list


@Mr.Marlow
You keep mentioning lydian scales. What is so special about them? A few pages back in this thread you wrote

quote:

From now on I’m gonna tell people only play lydian scales... lydian, lydian dominant, lydian #9, lydian #6, lydian augmented, lydian chromatic, lydian #1 (lol) etc. There’s the final answer on this.


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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 15 2020 19:15:01
 
mt1007

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RE: Which scales? (in reply to devilhand) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: devilhand

What about this one?

1 b2 b3 #4, 5 b6 7
E, F, G, A#, B C, D#

It's actually Phrygian#7 on your list with a raised 4th scale degree. Inspired by the quote of Mr. Marlow

quote:

not to mention the useful occurrence of scales that need F# or Bb in context that you are deliberately avoiding, and occurring way more frequently than several on your list


@Mr.Marlow
You keep mentioning lydian scales. What is so special about them? A few pages back in this thread you wrote

quote:

From now on I’m gonna tell people only play lydian scales... lydian, lydian dominant, lydian #9, lydian #6, lydian augmented, lydian chromatic, lydian #1 (lol) etc. There’s the final answer on this.





The only way to find out what is special about the lydian scales or any for that matter is to play them, and the chords they generate on every degree. That's the fun part. Man no short cuts like I said before you got to put in the work. You can't expect Ricardo to spoon feed you/us/me all the time. Listen to what you are playing thats the only to know for sure, is by checking with your ear...
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 15 2020 19:37:59
 
Ricardo

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From: Washington DC

RE: Which scales? (in reply to devilhand) 
quote:

You keep mentioning lydian scales. What is so special about them? A few pages back in this thread you wrote

quote:

From now on I’m gonna tell people only play lydian scales... lydian, lydian dominant, lydian #9, lydian #6, lydian augmented, lydian chromatic, lydian #1 (lol) etc. There’s the final answer on this.


_____________________________


Because...when you run the E Phrygian (naturals) in flamenco, it’s usually in place of the F chord harmony. It therefore functions as F lydian, and it resolves to E where the intended harmony change to tonic is. So any of those lydian scales that function in place of or imply the F chord in context of a falseta, are serving to create the necessary tension that begs resolution to tonic. A far more useful concept than running E Phrygian scales over an E chord... which a lot of people seem to think what Flamenco is all about. Their ears are not yet adjusted to the interesting harmonic movement and rhythmic phrasing going on, so the static E Phrygian modal sound becomes the popular superficial view of Flamenco in general.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 15 2020 20:16:29
 
mark indigo

 

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RE: Which scales? (in reply to Ricardo) 
quote:

It’s not on the list because there is no “E” note in it, not to mention the useful occurrence of scales that need F# or Bb in context that you are deliberately avoiding, and occurring way more frequently than several on your list, I’m afraid the over emphasis of Phrygian modal sounds is the reason for all the fakemenco going on.


I'm probably going to regret posting that list if other people latch on to it as some sort of "system" for "understanding" or "explaining" or whatever.... it was just a fascination bypath I went along for a bit out of curiosity, and like you say, misses out F lydian dominant, and also I seem to have missed out F melodic minor, which has Ab, Bb and E, so could count as a "phrygian type" scale.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 15 2020 22:51:50
 
mark indigo

 

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RE: Which scales? (in reply to Ricardo) 
quote:

A far more useful concept than running E Phrygian scales over an E chord...

most guitar before entre dos aguas (for the sake of argument) was solo guitar, so the option of running any scale over any chord didn't really exist....

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 15 2020 23:02:40
 
mark indigo

 

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RE: Which scales? (in reply to devilhand) 
quote:

Which scales? ....The purpose is picado runs...


Ramón Montoya - transcribed/written down by Alain Faucher. AFAIK Montoya didn't read or write music. last two bars are a half compas, so this extract begins on beat 10:





so there you have D#/Eb, G# and Bb, the conclusion is last 7 notes of E phrygian descending (or F Lydian ending on E).

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 15 2020 23:12:25
 
mark indigo

 

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RE: Which scales? (in reply to devilhand) 
quote:

Which scales? ....The purpose is picado runs...


Sabicas - first one is from Bronce Gitano, transcribed/written down by Juan de la Mata (Sabicas didn't read or write music either), starts on beat 1.

Second one is from Aires de Puerto Real transcribed/written down by Alain Faucher, also starts on 1.





all manner of chromatic notes! first extract ends with 2 octaves of E phrygian (or F Lydian ending on E) descending, second extract with 1 octave.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 15 2020 23:32:24
 
mark indigo

 

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RE: Which scales? (in reply to devilhand) 
quote:

Which scales? ....The purpose is picado runs...


Manolo Sanlucar from Pasito A Paso (on Mundo y Formas de la Guitarra Flamenca vol 2) transcribed by Claude Worms. Although Manolo did go on to study composition and learned to read and write notation, I don't think he had at the time he recorded this.



Andalusian cadence, G# only occurs in context of E major chord at end of compás.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 15 2020 23:49:17
 
mark indigo

 

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RE: Which scales? (in reply to devilhand) 
quote:

Which scales? ....The purpose is picado runs...


Paco de Lucía from Cuando Canta El Gallo on Fuente y Caudal album, although this is actually a transcription (by Claude Worms) from the live album Vivo en el Teatro Real, but it's the same as the studio album.





F# passing note to G in the second compas, G# right at the end leaning into the E chord, otherwise G naturals and no D#.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 16 2020 0:02:31
 
mark indigo

 

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RE: Which scales? (in reply to devilhand) 
quote:

Which scales? ....The purpose is picado runs...


Paco de Lucía from Plaza Alta on Almoraíma album. Two separate extracts. Transcribed by Enrique Vargas. I don't think Paco got to grips with notation until after this when he worked on his interpretations of Manuel de Falla (so he didn't actually "write" it, but did compose, create and play it, of course).



First one is all natural notes until final G# going to E major chord.

Second one has G natural at the top, G natural and G# in the middle, and G# at the end! I think he used both in the middle to make the run end on the required beat (10). Also makes 3 notes per string which is more comfortable.



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 16 2020 0:15:40
 
mark indigo

 

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RE: Which scales? (in reply to devilhand) 
quote:

What about this one?

1 b2 b3 #4, 5 b6 7
E, F, G, A#, B C, D#

It's actually Phrygian#7 on your list with a raised 4th scale degree.


Does it have a name? What other musical context does it exist in? My list is of scales that exist outside of flamenco in other kinds of music, in scale books or online or whatever, often under another name. For example, the second mode of melodic minor is usually called dorian b2 in jazz sources, but it is also phrygian #6 (actually I found a reference to it being used in middle eastern folk music as well). The mode of harmonic major that i called phrygian dominant #6 is also called mixolydian b2. It's not meant to be a list of every possible phrygian type scale, or a list of scales which describe or explain what is actually happening in flamenco music.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 16 2020 8:09:29
 
Ricardo

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From: Washington DC

RE: Which scales? (in reply to mark indigo) 
quote:

Does it have a name? What other musical context does it exist in?


Thanks for the list of picado falsetas above. The weird scale here seems to work over G13#5#9

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 16 2020 16:21:15
 
devilhand

 

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RE: Which scales? (in reply to mark indigo) 
Thanks for the examples. This will keep me busy for a while.

quote:

Does it have a name? What other musical context does it exist in?

It has no name. It's Hungarian minor scale with b2. Maybe we can call it Hungarian minor b2 or Phrygian#7#11. This is what I wrote a few pages back in this thread. For what purpose it can be used no idea. Hungarian minor sounds to me better though. The minor3rd intervals make a scale sound oriental.

quote:

If we want more arabic and oriental sound, we can raise the 4th scale degree of harmonic minor scale and get the so called Gypsy minor scale (also Hungarian minor scale).
The scale has even 2 enormous minor 3rd leaps between b6 & 7 and b3 & #4. Also 4 semitone intervals.

E Gypsy minor scale
1 2, b3 #4 5 b6 7
E F# G A# B C, D#

Interesting fact is 5th mode of Gypsy minor scale is called Arabic mode.


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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 16 2020 18:20:36
 
devilhand

 

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RE: Which scales? (in reply to Ricardo) 
quote:

Because...when you run the E Phrygian (naturals) in flamenco, it’s usually in place of the F chord harmony. It therefore functions as F lydian, and it resolves to E where the intended harmony change to tonic is. So any of those lydian scales that function in place of or imply the F chord in context of a falseta, are serving to create the necessary tension that begs resolution to tonic.

Honestly I didn't get it. I hope I can understand it after studying harmony used for Solea.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 16 2020 18:30:37
 
devilhand

 

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RE: Which scales? (in reply to devilhand) 
Flamenco explained by a classically trained composer. Gotta love the analogy between flamenco and blues. The guy in the video is a professional composer according to Wikipedia.
Not a single word about flamenco scale or 7 note scale even though he talks about a lot about 2 modes - phrygian and phrygian dominant. What do you guys think of this video? Do you agree with everything he said?



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 4 2020 23:35:08
 
Ricardo

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From: Washington DC

RE: Which scales? (in reply to devilhand) 
Wow, after all this discussion you have to bring us this junk? That first “andalusian” classical cadence was circle of fifths. He can’t even say “SoleA”...and no, buleria does not have an underlying triplet feeling like the African example....that would be tanguillo if anything. Ok if you want to go back to the superficial discussion and stick with that I am all for it. Just play your phrygian minor over the major chord like blues does with pentatonic. Have fun.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 5 2020 1:05:45
 
henrym3483

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From: Limerick,Ireland

RE: Which scales? (in reply to Ricardo) 
lot of food for thought there. especially the solea picado material
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 5 2020 12:43:21
 
chester

Posts: 891
Joined: Oct. 29 2010
 

RE: Which scales? (in reply to Ricardo) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

Wow, after all this discussion you have to bring us this junk? That first “andalusian” classical cadence was circle of fifths. He can’t even say “SoleA”...and no, buleria does not have an underlying triplet feeling like the African example....that would be tanguillo if anything. Ok if you want to go back to the superficial discussion and stick with that I am all for it. Just play your phrygian minor over the major chord like blues does with pentatonic. Have fun.


I'm curious Ricardo, have you ever met anyone other than yourself who's ideas weren't "junk"?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 6 2020 4:14:10
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