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However, part of my brain still wants to feel the second accented beat (the 3 if you start on 12) as syncopated, that the "true" accent is on 4. I just need to concentrate on breaking that habit -
Please don’t. In this case your brain is onto something important and actually correct.
Yeah I was gonna say, it IS syncopated. That's why it sounds cool.
it may be natural, but it is a bad thing because it is inefficient to learn something the wrong way and then try to relearn it the right way.
if you can get everything by ear then go ahead and use as much written material as you like, but if you can't get everything by ear don't waste precious time on written stuff, just work on getting things by ear.
Sorry I obviously didn't explain myself right. I'm not talking about written material, my attempts to understand bulerías (or any other palo) are based on listening, not studying a transcription or wahtever. When I referred to 3/4 I guess I meant in terms of a pulse in groups of 3, not a "time signature" in the written form.
Either way, it shouldn't be seen as the basis of the bulería rhythm, I take your point on not learning the wrong way and then having to unlearn.
What I do at the moment to try and learn compás is listen to a long playlist of whichever palo and try to count it out, trying to stay in time even when there is complex syncopation etc. Are you saying that is counterproductive?
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ORIGINAL: mark indigo
listen to this for the rhythm, not the technique or the composition, just the rhythm of the accompanying guitar tapeado throughout:
Oof, that's a weird one to my ears! I don't think I have the music vocabulary to describe what I think I'm hearing, and I am definitely not confident that what I think I'm hearing is correct but I'll give it a go ...
If it were in groups of 8 beats, it would be 2-3-3. But I also don't think it's in 8 beats, I think there are triplets in there, it feels maybe polymetric? (Although I couldn't put my finger on how). Am I anywhere close ... ?
As an aside, would you call that piece bulerías? Because to my untrained ear it didn't sound or feel like one at all.
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ORIGINAL: Ricardo
Please don’t. In this case your brain is onto something important and actually correct.
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ORIGINAL: chester Yeah I was gonna say, it IS syncopated. That's why it sounds cool.
Right, that has turned upside down what little I thought I knew! Are you able to elaborate on that in layman's terms for me please?
In this case your brain is onto something important and actually correct
That makes no sense to me. Or perhaps we just have a different understanding of what the word "syncopation" means? To me it makes no sense to say the 3 in bulerias is syncopated, just like it would make no sense to say a compound or complex time signature is syncopated. So I guess I'll join the group of people asking for you to clarify
_____________________________
"Anything you do can be fixed. What you cannot fix is the perfection of a blank page. What you cannot fix is that pristine, unsullied whiteness of a screen or a page with nothing on it—because there’s nothing there to fix."
When I referred to 3/4 I guess I meant in terms of a pulse in groups of 3, not a "time signature" in the written form.
Some may say it's dogmatic or pedantic or whatever, but I think there is an important distinction between rhythm in 2,3, 4 whatever, and a written time signature. Also all of my comments about this are in the context trying to keep things a little more open rather than nailing things down to one fixed narrow idea, so I think "based on a rhythm of x overlaid with y and with possibilites of v, w, z" is a world away from "written in this time signature"
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listen to a long playlist.... Are you saying that is counterproductive?
no! but also play palmas along with it, and try rhythmic syllables like taka taka taka instead of counting, or mixed with counting to start with...
I was going to add to the almoraima vid another vid with the suggestion to focus on one person at a time and see what they do with palmas, how it changes slightly/occasionally. the camera changes angles, so you might get someone else on a different view, but stick to one or two, then watch again and focus on someone else, it's very instructive!
However, part of my brain still wants to feel the second accented beat (the 3 if you start on 12) as syncopated, that the "true" accent is on 4. I just need to concentrate on breaking that habit -
Please don’t. In this case your brain is onto something important and actually correct.
I thought he meant he felt it as a syncopated beat in a rhythm of 4, which seemed wrong to me (like wanting to divide 12 into 3 groups of 4 beats), but as a syncopated beat in a rhythm of 3 i get it (ie. 12, 2, 4 etc), it's crossing 2 over 3 (ie. 12, 3 over 12, 2, 4), if that's what you mean?!
Try tapping your foot along and you’ll see the underlying pulse is on those beats so if you hit 3 hard then it feels syncopated
Just went through it and my foot automatically goes to that 2-out-of-3 pattern (1,2,4,5,7,8,10,11) throughout pretty much the whole piece (except in a few places where it went for 12,3,6,8,10). I think that means I'm feeling it in threes or in the compound. I don't tend to tap that way when it's a clear 2 pattern that is leading the song. But I might just be hearing it wrong.
To me that percussive pattern is a good example of syncopation. It suggests a pattern in 2s but it's actually highlighting 12, 1.5 and 3.5, so you get that jumpy horse-riding effect. I feel that surprise of hearing the accent where it's not usually supposed to be. I don't think I've never felt that for an accent put on 3. Even when I tap my foot in 2s so the 3 falls on an "off-beat", it doesn't feel like syncopation. It doesn't feel like a surprise or some sort of displacement of the 2 or 4 beat.
_____________________________
"Anything you do can be fixed. What you cannot fix is the perfection of a blank page. What you cannot fix is that pristine, unsullied whiteness of a screen or a page with nothing on it—because there’s nothing there to fix."
In this case your brain is onto something important and actually correct
That makes no sense to me. Or perhaps we just have a different understanding of what the word "syncopation" means? To me it makes no sense to say the 3 in bulerias is syncopated, just like it would make no sense to say a compound or complex time signature is syncopated. So I guess I'll join the group of people asking for you to clarify
Normal music in four is described as having the strong beats on count 1 and 3. The snare drum is on 2 and 4, called the up beat, weak beat, back beat etc. In a very simplistic view of basic quarter note rhythm, accenting 2 and 4, the weak beats, gives an auditory illusion that they are stronger. Hearing that and feeling 1 and 3 as stronger at the same time is a rudimentary concept of syncopation. An advanced concept of syncopation would be accenting dotted 16th notes across the bar line.
So take rumba in 4. The accent pattern is such that two accents are syncopated against the basic beat feeling which is grounded to ONE and THREE.
ONE and two AND three and FOUR and, ONE...etc. The 2.5 and the 4 are weak spots that are emphasized against the pulse. Bulerias, when counted like a ridiculously fast solea thanks to dance world imposition and letra factors, is identical to the above synchopated groove as such:
TWELVE and one AND two and THREE and.......and later SIX and seven AND eight and NINE and ....
Staying with the above concept that the two phrases are the same, it’s typical for palmas to express the above but de-emphasize the down beat as such:
Rumba or fast tangos: one and TWO AND three and FOUR and, one etc Buleria: twelve and ONE AND two and THREE and......six and SEVEN AND eight and NINE and .....
Both patterns are identical grooves, the guitar can accent the down beat and accent various ways against those palmas patterns. In the case of buleria harmonic moves are on 3 and 9. Rasgueado is typical on 9-10 to create a cuadrao phrase however in almoraima at 2:20 and 3:31. rasgueado on 3-4 is perfectly normal to feel due to the symmetry of the groove (two halves equal a whole compas but only one is required to feel the basic groove). If guitar players are having trouble understanding how these two different songs (rumba and buleria) have the same feeling of beat pulse vs syncopated accents, then play rumba as A-Bb, stay on Bb back to A, but change the chords back and forth on count 4 but do a rasgueado triplet on every A switchback on count 4-1. You should see how the two grooves are the exact same in this regard.
So as you can see mathematically the ONLY THING DIFFERENT about the two rhythms accent and groove patterns is that bulerias has TWO extra beats...one beat can be thought of as strong, the other weak. 4 and 5 and.....and at the end, 10 and 11 and. No need to accent either one necessarily though it is customary to accent or stop on 10. When it is 4 that gets stopped or accented, it is often that a HALF COMPAS situation arises for obvious reasons...but it should be no problem feeling wise IF you are grooving correctly all along.
Please note that stopping on 10 is the mathematical equivalent of stopping on the Downbeat of rumba, with both patterns feeling exactly the same. Buleria simply has the extra weak beat as a breath (11) before the new down beat (12). Nunez examples I gave on previous page demo exactly this.
OK this is going to be a long post, can only apologise for that, but there's a lot of different people offering me help so want to make sure I reply to everyone
There are slower tempos if that’s too fast or you can slow it down in YouTube.
Listen for the bass drum on beats 6,8,10 and stamp your foot along to those beats. When that’s comfortable carry on tapping your foot every two beats so you’re tapping on 12,2,4,6,8,10. Now when that’s also comfortable listen for when beat 3 comes round and clap your hand on that beat, still maintaining for foot tapping every 2 beats. Can you hear how 3 is on the off beat (ie. it’s syncopated)?
If you watch videos of Paco playing Bulerias you can see him tapping his foot in a similar way except he does two taps so he’s tapping on beats 1,2 4,5 7,8 10,11 but the feel is the same.
That's great, thank you. I think I was mentally already doing that but trying to break the habit because I thought it was "wrong" and I would understand bulerías better if I didn't. It's good to hear my instincts were good, maybe I should trust them more. I'm certainly no outstanding musician by anyone's standards even in the styles I've been playing longer, but I do think I've got a decent grasp of rhythm in general.
quote:
ORIGINAL: mark indigo
Some may say it's dogmatic or pedantic or whatever, but I think there is an important distinction between rhythm in 2,3, 4 whatever, and a written time signature. Also all of my comments about this are in the context trying to keep things a little more open rather than nailing things down to one fixed narrow idea, so I think "based on a rhythm of x overlaid with y and with possibilites of v, w, z" is a world away from "written in this time signature"
I get that, the concept of a "time signature" belongs to a musical culture which flamenco is not part of. A rhythm in 3 is what I meant - as regards the "1-2-3, 1-2-3" portion, would that be "overlayed with 2"?
quote:
ORIGINAL: mark indigo
no! but also play palmas along with it, and try rhythmic syllables like taka taka taka instead of counting, or mixed with counting to start with...
I was going to add to the almoraima vid another vid with the suggestion to focus on one person at a time and see what they do with palmas, how it changes slightly/occasionally. the camera changes angles, so you might get someone else on a different view, but stick to one or two, then watch again and focus on someone else, it's very instructive!
Playing palmas is a great idea, I have a 4 month old baby who absolutely loves clapping, clicking, any sort of percussive sounds at the moment. Perfect!
I will give that video a look too and see what I can pick up. Thanks.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Piwin
I don't think I've never felt that for an accent put on 3. Even when I tap my foot in 2s so the 3 falls on an "off-beat", it doesn't feel like syncopation. It doesn't feel like a surprise or some sort of displacement of the 2 or 4 beat.
I definitely get that feeling of displacement, the A-->Bb chord change on 3 feels early to me.
Still not really on board with the idea that 3 is syncopated though. Like you said, rumba is 4/4 grounded in beats one and three, so yes beat 4 is felt as syncopation in that setting. But even using that same pattern in buleria, it's far less obvious to me that beat 3 (which was beat 4 in the rumba version, but now 3 in buleria since we're starting on 12) should be felt as syncopation.
There are settings where you repeat the 6-8-10 half-compas for some amount of time and in such a setting sure, 3 could be felt as syncopated. But outside of that I just don't feel it. In a basic compas situation where you're playing the compound version with both forms of half-compas put together, I'm not feeling 3 as syncopated at all, and I'm certainly not feeling 4 as a down beat. In that setting, the only sense in which I would see it as syncopation is in the rudimentary sense you described at the beginning, i.e. as a sort-of upbeat midway between 12 and 6 (I mean, I'm actually feeling 3 as a down-beat, but if I half-time it (or whatever you call that in English), I could conceive of it as an up-beat).
But maybe I'm feeling it wrong. What I'm hearing is that for you the groove is always the "second" half-compas, the 6-8-10, and the "first" half-compas (12-3) should only ever be felt as a syncopated variation of the second. If that's it, then yeah, I'm just not feeling it that way at all.
_____________________________
"Anything you do can be fixed. What you cannot fix is the perfection of a blank page. What you cannot fix is that pristine, unsullied whiteness of a screen or a page with nothing on it—because there’s nothing there to fix."
But maybe I'm feeling it wrong. What I'm hearing is that for you the groove is always the "second" half-compas, the 6-8-10, and the "first" half-compas (12-3) should only ever be felt as a syncopated variation of the second. If that's it, then yeah, I'm just not feeling it that way at all.
You are not “wrong”, but your view is incomplete. Probably for you, when you encounter a half compas situation it sounds or feels somehow “special” or breaks the flow of things a little bit, like something has either been added or subtracted to the phrase. This is normal, and actually a part of the solea family in 12 count song forms. It ties in to the cante accompaniment discussion of Solea when the singer breaks the symmetry but the guitar adheres to 12 count structures. However what you want to feel generally for Buleria is ambiguity between the first and second half of the compas such that it DOESN’T MATTER if you count it 6,8,10 OR 12,2,4. This is general for all case falsetas and compas....but it’s different for special case situations where the solea phrase is deliberately expressed at high speed (compas or falsetas).
For someone in your position I recommend practicing your normal buleria groove and feel, but simply add a special emphasis on 9...every pass. One way to do that is simply change to the chord on 9 without doing rasgueado. Over time the feeling of symmetry gets ingrained. Next apply your typical 9-10 simple rasgueado but again, try to feel, accent or emphasize the 9 when you do it. Next apply the same exact rasgueado and feeling on 3-4 as you do on 9-10. The example of Almoraima I pointed out earlier is doing that in those two spots. The way he does the 3-4 should be the same as your 9-10, just that its’ a Bb chord on 3, and an A chord on 9. (He accents the 4& but ignore that for now, it’s the same deal as 10&). Next if you could express your compas with the rasgueado on 3-4, but omit any rasgueado on 9-10, just do the simple chord change to A with emphasis or accentuation on 9. Hopefully the symmetry becomes evident. Finally, choose a single chord, any chord, and continue to express the compas with rasguedo on 3-4, but only emphasize the 9, and after awhile you can no longer hear if you are doing 6 or 12, but you can totally feel the groove just fine.
This same exercise can apply to falsetas, but again NOT the special case solea type phrases. For example when I made those Paco tutorials, a lot of times I am counting the phrase and I actually don’t know if in context its’ a 1-6 phrase or a 7-12 phrase because it actually doesn’t even matter! Indeed it’s why the composers themselves are usually not even aware if they have constructed a cuadrao phrase or not for the same reason that the true feel is ambiguous, so you just go with what “feels” good and not with some 12 count rule.
Once you have discovered yourself existing in this zone where you actually can’t tell what count you are on but know by feeling it is “correct”, you’ve got it!
really good explanation - took me about 20 years to figure all that out!
here in the first falseta a nice example of the sort of thing that used to puzzle me until I stopped trying to impose the 12 count hemiola and just went with the 6/medio compas symmetry (also showing that this is not some kind of new/modern idea)
Probably for you, when you encounter a half compas situation it sounds or feels somehow “special” or breaks the flow of things a little bit
Yep. 100%. Sometimes I can handle it alright, sometimes it messes me up, but yeah it always feels like a bit of a break in the flow.
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For someone in your position I recommend
Thanks! I'll work on this. Dumb question but, since the thread is on foot tapping, I'm assuming that if I bring this exercise up to speed trying to get a symmetrical feel, I should avoid the 3-6-8-10-12 tapping pattern while doing it, yes?
_____________________________
"Anything you do can be fixed. What you cannot fix is the perfection of a blank page. What you cannot fix is that pristine, unsullied whiteness of a screen or a page with nothing on it—because there’s nothing there to fix."
Dumb question but, since the thread is on foot tapping, I'm assuming that if I bring this exercise up to speed trying to get a symmetrical feel, I should avoid the 3-6-8-10-12 tapping pattern while doing it, yes?
Do two ways, stick to one way for a while, then try the other. 12,3,6,9 etc.
Then later do 12,2,4,6,8,10.
For compas only. When you get into falsetas, choose only one and stick to it for that falseta.
Other option is the 1,2,4,5,7,8,10,11 thing. That one don’t do till you’ve really got it together.
"Anything you do can be fixed. What you cannot fix is the perfection of a blank page. What you cannot fix is that pristine, unsullied whiteness of a screen or a page with nothing on it—because there’s nothing there to fix."
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nothing to add though sorry. Just enjoyed the Paco !
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