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I have an opportunity to start accompanying the cante. A local singer has offered to work with me so I can learn this aspect of playing flamenco which IMO, is what it's all about.
I have ZERO experience playing for a singer/dancer. I want to start working on things first before I dive in. Can you guys give me advise that will help move me in the right direction? Aside from learning COMPAS which is probably the most important.
Until now, I only play for my own enjoyment learning various falseta but I need to learn more chord progressions and basically learn to play as an accompanyist as opposed to a solo guitarist.
There's a ton of flamenco methods out there for the guitarist but very little dealing with accompanying. What do you all recommend? I'm scared, anxious, nervous and intimidated all at the same time but it's a dream of mine to be able to accompany. I MUST DO THIS. MUST I SAY!
RE: Help from the guys who accompany (in reply to TANúñez)
Hi Tom,
I don´t play accompanying singers, because here are no singers. Like you I don´t have experience, too, but I think it´s worthy to learn from the Encuentro video with Merengue de Cordoba where he teaches entradas and all that´s needed for song accompanyment. I remember a review that praised this video when it came out.
RE: Help from the guys who accompany (in reply to TANúñez)
Hi Tanunez!
Well,. he will start with some traditional cante. I think so... So just hear much traditional cante. I think Paco Ceperos acompaniment is very good. Or hear Agujetas. Or the whold old fraction Mairena, Caracol etc. The basic is more or less allways the same structure. And when you start allways keep in the head: Simple is best. The singer needs much attention...so your falsetas are at first not required. All what pushes the singer is the best. Well.. Im not very good in playing for singing... But I know dozens of the old letras and they are not very different.. That would be a good start.
Posts: 14804
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Help from the guys who accompany (in reply to TANúñez)
How good is the local singer, is he professional? Is he gitano? Just curious. Also, how good is your compas? If you feel pretty shaking with playing even or not adding/subtracting beats, you may want to start with free form fandangos. THe chords are pretty standard, though you have to learn the right time to change, and listen for the note the singer gives you, and don't lead him/her or anticipate. Even though there is no steady beat, timing of your chords and answers is still real important.
Anyway that would be a start for getting tonos for a singer. Listen to the maestros and copy their answers and falsetas for between the chord changes and coplas.
If you can already do fandangos no sweat, but want to try stuff with compas, try Alegrias first. Just two chords at first, but you have to really keep the rhythm, that is the main thing.
RE: Help from the guys who accompany (in reply to Ricardo)
WOW !! Exciting news buddy ! GREAT!
Yes its kind of up in the air and left up to our imagination and creativity of how one could practice for a singer outside spain.
You have to get creative with your methods,
Here is what i propose ( as well as everything else suggested)
Get all the Ritmo Flamenco cds ( it has cante track alone of the most major palos, it also has the same track but with just guitar, and it has a track with all of it togheder, so if you are unsure on what chord you can always correct yourself by listening to the original, it is a bitt modern the way they accompany, but try and over look that you just keep it to straight compas and cords for yourself)
Listen to all the Solo Compas cds, the cante accompaning and playing for dancers and llamadas are more traditional and straight foward) practice along to it.
infact practice along many different cante audios, put the volume low if you can so that mostly the voice comes out, you can also record yourself so that you can see how close you are.
THE MOST USEFULL Suggestion i have
Get the Singer to come over your house, explain to him that its your first time and it will do you a world of good if you can record some of his songs so you can practice along to it, (this will help alot)
so when he comes Just get him to sing and record him with a compas track alongside. this is not only good for you to practice but to experiment things latter on , at your own speed.
good luck , and dont be affraid to coma back and ask for cante chords, llamadas etc. whatever you need, between all of us, well make Moraito out of you.
chances are he will start with Tangos or Bulerias but i am just guessing, let us know when you know what palos you are working on.
RE: Help from the guys who accompany (in reply to TANúñez)
One good thing to know is that the better the singer is the easier it will be for you to accompany him/her, although what that usually means is that it's harder in the beginning because you're more likely to start accompanying less talented singers.
Keep a calm steady compás with your right hand and follow the cante with your left hand. Compás is very important. Make sure the guitar's tuned and the capo is firmly in place, and that's about all you have to concentrate on as far as the guitar.
As for the singing, you'll want to be familiar with your singer's influences (what recordings he/she listens to) and repertoire (what styles he/she is likely to sing). Regarding influences, it's as simple as listening to those same recordings. About the singer's repertoire, it's in your interest to familiarize yourself with the more commonly sung styles of each palo. For example, alegrías usually involves just three different cantes, and if you know your singer likes malagueñas, you can expect to hear the styles of Chacón and El Mellizo, etc. Good aficionados usually know what the singer's going to do before he/she does it (how he or she gets from point A to point B is another matter).
It's a good idea to be familiar with the most commonly sung verse and to be aware of how far into the verse the singer is at any given moment. For example, the cambio in a soleá (G7 to C por arriba) happens in the second half of the verse, so you have to keep track of how many lines of verse have been sung and whether or not that verse has three or four lines. You'll benefit greatly from writing out the SUNG verse of different recordings of the same style of cante and taking note of the differences and similarities among them.
You'll also want to be familiar with your singer's preferences insofar as tempo (how fast) and capo position. Obviously, it's a good idea to quickly discuss these things just before launching into each cante. But, not so obviously, you'll also want to know beforehand if your singer's going to ask for an unusual playing position, like por arriba (E-F) for tientos or siguiriyas. This is something to be aware of before getting together, in order to have an opportunity to fill in any gaps you might have in your repertoire. For example, it's not at all uncommon for older singers to want to do bulerías por arriba, fandangos could be por arriba or por medio, and alegrías can be accompanied in C, E or (less frequently) in A.
Finally, a good tocaor is generous, patient and supportive and expects nothing for his/her efforts aside from taking the blame when things go wrong. Think "chivalrous" and you'll be on the right track. This might involve backing off when the singer's hot and filling in when he/she is not, breaking the ice with jokes and/or banter when the singer seems apprehensive about the task at hand, or just knowing when to stop and take a break. In this sense, good tocaores and very good bartenders are not too dissimilar: They're there for a purpose, but the ultimate goal is for everyone else to have a good time.
One last piece of advice: Keep an eye on how other people accompany. It's not always apparent why a guitarist's accompaniment works well when it does, but when something seems inappropriate you're going to notice it immediately.
RE: Help from the guys who accompany (in reply to Florian)
I'm jumping on here too...
I'm going to perform tientos, peteneras and zorongo live with a singer in about 6 weeks and we'll be meeting for the first time in about 2 weeks. I do have recordings and have been playing along with each one a couple times a day to get into it.
I've done cante accompanyment for alegrias and lots of other palos with compas, so I picked up tientos no problem and zorongo was pretty clear. Peteneras is a challenge though and I'm really excited about it. This is something I've always wanted to do
I only have problems when the guitarist on the recording gives an answer before the singer is done singing and follows him into a chord change - I can't find the point where a guitarist would see this coming. I could upload the track I have, could be interesting for TANúñez too if we could analyze the different parts.
_____________________________
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RE: Help from the guys who accompany (in reply to henrym3483)
Hey, Tom.
I had the tremendous good fortune to take guitar lessons from one of the greats (Carlos Ramos, a very puro student of Ramon Montoya) who performed nightly for 30 years with the legendary Manolo Leiva -- and I got to hang with top notch singers and dancers as a result. The instruction I got from them was valuable, but every singer is a little idiosyncratic in where the chord changes go and the cues they give as to when there is a falseta-sized break for the guitarist to do something. So learning with one singer only prepares you somewhat for playing with the next, and I need to rehearse with anyone I'm going to perform with later.
BUT -- Having said all that, I think I learned the most from playing along with stereo LP recordings and (when possible) turning down the speaker with the guitar. Of course, knowing the compas is is the essential first step, but after that, I think playing with recordings helped me more than anything. The chord changes do vary, but the patterns of change become predictable once you learn what to listen for.
I found solea was easiest to start with, but by then I had a good grounding in compas. I think it would probably have been easier to start with something in a more familiar western time signature like fandangos, tientos, or tangos. Maybe farruca if you have a dancer to work with. Sevillanas compas is also familiar to the western ear, but it has a rather rigid structure that has to be followed.
Here's my best suggestion: there's a guy in Titusville FL named Bill Davidson -- I'm sure that many people here on the FORO know him. He goes to Spain every year and spends the summer recording juergas and festivals. Been doing it for years -- since he was a student of Diego del Gastor way back when Moron was "the place". He has (I am absolutely certain) the largest archive of recorded flamenco material anywhere in the world (mostly accompanied cante), and he is willing to share it AT COST ($6 per DVD) with anyone. The production values of most are high -- as high as Carlos Saurias movies, IMO.
He will send back issues if you order them, and/or you can subscribe to his future output, again at $6 a pop. He works on the honor system and only bills you after you have received the first 6. They are each about 1.5 solid hours of material.
Example: I was just listening to the XXXVII annual Jerez Bulerias festival (that's right, the 37th! and that was in 2004). 1.5 hours of Bulerias.
Anyway, that's a great low-cost resource of bulk material to practice accompaniment, and you can see the guitarists hands in many of them. I think Bill's material is superior (for learning) to the LP recording approach that I took.
For anyone who wants to get the compas "into their blood" by listening to tons of material at low cost, this is the way.
RE: Help from the guys who accompany (in reply to TANúñez)
A huge THANKS to all you guys! Every one of you had great advise that I will take.
So much to learn. After reading many of the replies, it may be possible that I am not really ready to take this on but I'm going to give it a shot. If the singer I'll be working with feels I'm not ready, I'm sure he'll let me know.
I need to really start working hard on compas, compas and more compas. Perhaps I should start with accompanying the dance first. Does it matter?
RE: Help from the guys who accompany (in reply to TANúñez)
quote:
TANúñez
Hi TANúñez, Check out Jason Mcguire's website also...He has posted some awesome material recently for cante and dance, with more material soon to come. Can't recommend this site enough, he will post material specific to your needs as well once you become a member and is always prompt to answer any questions you may have. Good luck!
RE: Help from the guys who accompany (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ricardo
How good is the local singer, is he professional? Is he gitano? Just curious. Also, how good is your compas? If you feel pretty shaking with playing even or not adding/subtracting beats, you may want to start with free form fandangos. THe chords are pretty standard, though you have to learn the right time to change, and listen for the note the singer gives you, and don't lead him/her or anticipate. Even though there is no steady beat, timing of your chords and answers is still real important.
Anyway that would be a start for getting tonos for a singer. Listen to the maestros and copy their answers and falsetas for between the chord changes and coplas.
If you can already do fandangos no sweat, but want to try stuff with compas, try Alegrias first. Just two chords at first, but you have to really keep the rhythm, that is the main thing.
Ricardo
I just found this video on youtube. The first 50 seconds of this video made me want to revive this thread. I wonder what you meant by ".. don't lead him/her or anticipate" in your post above. I'm curious to know whats going on in tocaor's head in situations like this in the video. Do you already know before what chords you have to play or do you adjust your chords to the singer's voice?
Posts: 14804
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Help from the guys who accompany (in reply to devilhand)
quote:
ORIGINAL: devilhand
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ricardo
How good is the local singer, is he professional? Is he gitano? Just curious. Also, how good is your compas? If you feel pretty shaking with playing even or not adding/subtracting beats, you may want to start with free form fandangos. THe chords are pretty standard, though you have to learn the right time to change, and listen for the note the singer gives you, and don't lead him/her or anticipate. Even though there is no steady beat, timing of your chords and answers is still real important.
Anyway that would be a start for getting tonos for a singer. Listen to the maestros and copy their answers and falsetas for between the chord changes and coplas.
If you can already do fandangos no sweat, but want to try stuff with compas, try Alegrias first. Just two chords at first, but you have to really keep the rhythm, that is the main thing.
Ricardo
I just found this video on youtube. The first 50 seconds of this video made me want to revive this thread. I wonder what you meant by ".. don't lead him/her or anticipate" in your post above. I'm curious to know whats going on in tocaor's head in situations like this in the video. Do you already know before what chords you have to play or do you adjust your chords to the singer's voice?
Ok. Well there are stages or degrees of understanding. I’ll number them.
1. What is the song form? This is fandango. No compas here so it’s fandango Libre vs the rhythmic styles from Huelva. Fandango naturales is another name for the free style version.
2. What is the form or structure of fandango? Well it usually has the same structure always, like the blues. We have 6 phrases or “compases” and the chords are in the relative major key. We learn these chords in two different tonalities for fandango, por Arriba and por medio and adjust capo to singer’s prefered range. (Not all melodies can fit a single vocal range so a singer will tell you if you need to change the key before you start). This guy is at 4 por medio, pretty high. Can’t remember if he told me to put it there or if I was challenging him.
3. The chords for the letra por medio. Each chord goes at the conclusion of a sung line of verse: F Bb F C F Bb-A
4. Learn how to change chords by leading into them with either dominant chords or melodic lines (contestas) that trace out those dominants. C7-F, F7-Bb etc. learn phrases from the maestros, don’t make up your own at first.
5. Learn how to hear the guide notes for the chord change (usually root third or 5th of the chord you need). Wait until the singer stops and takes a breath before delivering the contestas or chord change.
6. Familiarize yourself with the various melodic blueprints so you can identify specific melodies. Some melodies have surprise guide tones, short verses, no breath taken rather singing straight through important guide tones, etc. This fandango above is Almendro or something, but very old and familiar style.
7. Learn specific letras and the way they are typically interpreted. Though the melody is old, this specific letra and version is associated with Manolo Caracol. It makes preparing for the chords and answers very easy.
8. Know your Cantaor. This guy is French Gypsy (relative of Gipsy kings). He likes Camaron best, so although he might go for the Caracol letra more like Camaron would, well, he is French, so he might say words differently than an andaluz, and he might make mistakes with notes (first guide note was supposed to be a C to call in F chord, but he was not quite down low enough, ooops), or enhance the melody with his own melisma (he extends the ending a lot).
RE: Help from the guys who accompany (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
We have 6 phrases or “compases” and the chords are in the relative major key. We learn these chords in two different tonalities for fandango, por Arriba and por medio
Is this in E phrygian key with 12 beat compas at around 3:00-3:50? He put a capo on the 6th fret.
Fandangos de Santa Eulalia (Pepe Rivera)
1 Santa Eulalia de mi vida 2 santa de mi devoción 3 dame esa luz santa mía 4 para ir a tu función 5 que no la he visto entodavía
The last 5th line goes like this |E E Am|Amx3|G F E|Ex3|
I couldn't hear what chords are played in the first 4 lines. I guess E E E F for each line.
RE: Help from the guys who accompany (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
Well you picked the unique style out of many hundreds that has a unique structure, way to go.
I thought the compas was easier to follow in this version. Anyhow, I should go back to the basics and learn simple Solea or something. Btw, you can see young el Cabrero with hat sitting next to the singer.
Posts: 14804
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Help from the guys who accompany (in reply to devilhand)
quote:
ORIGINAL: devilhand
quote:
Well you picked the unique style out of many hundreds that has a unique structure, way to go.
I thought the compas was easier to follow in this version. Anyhow, I should go back to the basics and learn simple Solea or something. Btw, you can see young el Cabrero with hat sitting next to the singer.
Same fiesta with Cabrero you can see one of my favorites doing his very short and direct style Gordito de Triana at 3:00
Printable Version
So just hear much traditional cante. I think Paco Ceperos acompaniment is very good. Or hear Agujetas. Or the whold old fraction Mairena, Caracol etc. The basic is more or less allways the same structure. 
GREAT! 
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